[hopefullyconfused]

Several books into the series, I have yet to comprehend what Crokus has done to become an assassin. Yes, he changed his name, but I don't see that he's done anything beyond that. I kept thinking perhaps we are supposed to view the change as kind of naïve and childish, consistent with his character in the first book. But then Erikson seems to repeatedly validate this by referring to him in third person narrative passages as an assassin. It makes the whole thing seem kind of childish, unless I am missing something. Like a five year old who wakes up one day and tells everyone he's a ninja or a pirate. Or it seems like a regurgitation of fantasy-lit, RPG character tropes just for the sake of itself. We're labeling this character an assassin because... hey, because assassins are cool and Final Fantasy.

When Crokus is introduced as a thief, we can take that seriously because he actually acts as a thief. When he changes his name and is suddenly an "assassin," it's hard to see what he's done to merit the title other than the name change. I don't think he's part of any assassin's guild, he doesn't seem to have done any work as an assassin, and he generally does not conduct himself in any consistent manner. The only thing he does do is follow Apsalar around. I am just starting Toll the Hounds, but it feels like if there were some explanation for this, I'd have already come across it.

This post has been edited by hopefullyconfused: 21 April 2015 - 07:10 PM

[Shadow Knight]

Did aapalar not train him?

[Puck]

 hopefullyconfused, on 21 April 2015 - 07:07 PM, said:

Several books into the series, I have yet to comprehend what Crokus has done to become an assassin. Yes, he changed his name, but I don't see that he's done anything beyond that. I kept thinking perhaps we are supposed to view the change as kind of naïve and childish, consistent with his character in the first book. But then Erikson seems to repeatedly validate this by referring to him in third person narrative passages as an assassin.

He had Apsalar train him, and also killed people for pay, alongside her. It's also his point of view, so wether he can be considered an assassin by other people or not, if that's what he chooses to see himself as, then that's what the narration will be claiming he is. He spends the first couple of pages of his narration in HoC mulling over all of that in detail.

 hopefullyconfused, on 21 April 2015 - 07:07 PM, said:

It makes the whole thing seem kind of childish, unless I am missing something. Like a five year old who wakes up one day and tells everyone he's a ninja or a pirate. Or it seems like a regurgitation of fantasy-lit, RPG character tropes just for the sake of itself. We're labeling this character an assassin because... hey, because assassins are cool and Final Fantasy.

I think it's supposed to feel a buit like that. As you already mention yourself, it fits as a continuation of his somewhat naive character. He chooses to want to become an assassin so he can remain at Apsalar's side, because he's young and in love with her, and feels like she's slipping away from him, in part due to her experience as an assassin and killer, even though those experiences are inherited from Cotillion. It's naive, but it the one thing he can think of doing.

 hopefullyconfused, on 21 April 2015 - 07:07 PM, said:

When Crokus is introduced as a thief, we can take that seriously because he actually acts as a thief. When he changes his name and is suddenly an "assassin," it's hard to see what he's done to merit the title other than the name change. I don't think he's part of any assassin's guild, he doesn't seem to have done any work as an assassin, and he generally does not conduct himself in any consistent manner. The only thing he does do is follow Apsalar around. I am just starting Toll the Hounds, but it feels like if there were some explanation for this, I'd have already come across it.

Crokus in GotM acts as the romantic idea of a thief he has in his mind. That's little different from what he does when he changes careers. I think it's also pretty evident in HoC that it does not really stick. Yet, as already mentioned, it's not like he has never done anything in that line of work. HoC starts after he's been doing this for a bit at Apsalar's side. He even has this conversation with Cotillion in Chapter Six:

Quote

[…] 'Am I your patron now?' he asked.
He wanted to answer no. He wanted to back away, to flee the question and all his answer would signify. He wanted to unleash vitriol at the suggestion. 'I believe you might be at that, Cotillion.'
'I am... pleased, Crokus.'

..which pretty clearly shows how Cutter is NOT all-assassin-and-yeah-now-I'm-so-cool, but that he is still torn between his old self as Crokus and the image of himself he is trying to build as Cutter. In general, I suggest a reread of Chapter Six of HoC on that issue. The fact that he does not follow a consistent line of behaviour and tries desperately to cling to Apsalar is a testament to how young he is and how he still needs to find the way he wants to walk in life.

You state all the important points this character makes and.. yeah, I wonder, as with your other thread, what it is you are looking for? Cutter is barely out of being a teenager, he left his home, lost his family and is in love with a girl who turned out to be something completely different from what he probably imagined. Do you really expect someone in that position to act consistently? Cutter needs to find himself first, whether he calls himself Cutter or Crokus.

[Nevyn]

This is a 17 year old (at the start of the story) with a lot of guile and dexterity (thief sneaking into secured estates. One of his best friends in an assassin in the local guild. He falls for a girl who is an assassin, having become so by being possessed by the PATRON GOD OF ASSASSINS. He then takes a long boat trip with her and another peerless assassin, and incessantly practices with knives as I recall. Also then meets no end of ascendants and powerful beings.

So I'm not really sure why you'd find it odd that he could become one.

If you are asking why he wants to be one, he kind of feels he has to to be 'worthy' of Apsalar.

If you are asking if he has done a bunch of assassinations or is just a kid training to be an assassin , I dunno. But I never found the character arc odd.

[worry]

I think if you assassinate at least one person then you're an assassin.

[hopefullyconfused]

It makes more sense to me if we are supposed to read the character as somewhat naïve. The part that throws me is how the author's narrative perspective also seems to buy into that identity without giving the reader a sense of the silliness or irony. But, I suppose part of the narration has always been about playing with our expectations and understandings in sometimes unreliable ways. I would personally still feel self-conscious changing my name and conveying that identity to other people. Like if I spent a summer training with the San Diego Chargers and decided to change my name to RunningBack and tell everyone I was in the NFL now. But I also must have missed the references to the actual assassinations. It's more believable in context of him receiving training and having actually done a few hits. Missing details is not okay in this series, huh?

This post has been edited by hopefullyconfused: 22 May 2015 - 03:15 PM

[worry]

The implication, since Cotillion is actually talking to Cutter at all, is that Cutter has been helping Apsalar take out the people on Cotillion's list (off screen and as part of his training). The other inference you can make, and that runs counter to the RunningBack example, is that Cutter doesn't really have the kind of social circle that any of us do. It's unlikely he's introducing himself as Cutter to anyone. His list of friends include the Phoenix Inn regulars he doesn't see anymore, kinda-sorta a damaged and reluctant Apsalar, and...that's pretty much it.

[Vengeance]

 worry, on 21 April 2015 - 09:46 PM, said:

I think if you assassinate at least one person then you're an assassin.

Whoo there. It is just a hobby and I don't want to be defined by what I do. I want to be defined by who I am.

Mr. Rush to Judgement.

[Keysi]

Did he actually get trained by Apsalar then? I mean, it makes sense that would have happened, I just don't remember it getting mentioned anywhere is all.

I do remember him doing some knife dance/forms sorta thing perhaps in the last book. But katas are gay

[Andorion]

 Keysi, on 08 November 2015 - 10:50 AM, said:

Did he actually get trained by Apsalar then? I mean, it makes sense that would have happened, I just don't remember it getting mentioned anywhere is all.

I do remember him doing some knife dance/forms sorta thing perhaps in the last book. But katas are gay

Probably. Apsalar did not like what he was doing but she probably thought him knowing what he was doing was better than him going out untrained and getting himself killed

[worry]

 Keysi, on 08 November 2015 - 10:50 AM, said:

But katas are gay

I would urge you not to say things like this here, or for that matter elsewhere/anywhere.

[HoosierDaddy]

 Keysi, on 08 November 2015 - 10:50 AM, said:

Did he actually get trained by Apsalar then? I mean, it makes sense that would have happened, I just don't remember it getting mentioned anywhere is all.

I do remember him doing some knife dance/forms sorta thing perhaps in the last book. But katas are gay

We know from GotM he is skilled at not being detected and light-fingered. It is not shocking that he'd learn much from simply copying Apsalar who was possessed by the god of assassins and a powerhouse in her own right.

Also, yeah, this isn't 4Chan. Kindly refrain from using that as a slur or with a negative connotation.

[Felisin Fatter]

I seem to recall a mention that Kalam taught him knife-work. They were on a long boat trip together, and Crokus was the nimble type. And I also recall a mention that he went on a hit (more implied) with Apsalar. So I buy he'd be pretty good after a year (?) of that kind of experience. All one-sentence mentions though, so easy to miss. Pretty sure I only understood this part on a reread. (Also because Crokus/Cutter rather annoys me, a naive character like him feels out of place in these novels.)

[Keysi]

Ugh...Sorry, I in no way meant it to be offensive.

What's 4chan?

[Esa1996]

 Keysi, on 10 November 2015 - 03:02 PM, said:

Ugh...Sorry, I in no way meant it to be offensive.

What's 4chan?

Kinda like Reddit AFAIK. I've heard people call it "The dark side of Reddit" etc.

[Kanese S's]

 Esa1996, on 10 November 2015 - 09:00 PM, said:

 Keysi, on 10 November 2015 - 03:02 PM, said:

Ugh...Sorry, I in no way meant it to be offensive.

What's 4chan?

Kinda like Reddit AFAIK. I've heard people call it "The dark side of Reddit" etc.

They're basically the same except that Reddit fancies itself sophisticated, whereas 4chan knows it's a cesspool.

[Kanese S's]

 hopefullyconfused, on 21 April 2015 - 07:07 PM, said:

Several books into the series, I have yet to comprehend what Crokus has done to become an assassin. Yes, he changed his name, but I don't see that he's done anything beyond that. I kept thinking perhaps we are supposed to view the change as kind of naïve and childish, consistent with his character in the first book. But then Erikson seems to repeatedly validate this by referring to him in third person narrative passages as an assassin. It makes the whole thing seem kind of childish, unless I am missing something. Like a five year old who wakes up one day and tells everyone he's a ninja or a pirate. Or it seems like a regurgitation of fantasy-lit, RPG character tropes just for the sake of itself. We're labeling this character an assassin because... hey, because assassins are cool and Final Fantasy.

When Crokus is introduced as a thief, we can take that seriously because he actually acts as a thief. When he changes his name and is suddenly an "assassin," it's hard to see what he's done to merit the title other than the name change. I don't think he's part of any assassin's guild, he doesn't seem to have done any work as an assassin, and he generally does not conduct himself in any consistent manner. The only thing he does do is follow Apsalar around. I am just starting Toll the Hounds, but it feels like if there were some explanation for this, I'd have already come across it.

Crokus is the understudy and occasional backup of Apsalar, whose assassin credentials are obviously pretty well-founded. There is mention that she's been training him, and taking him on jobs as her apprentice as helper. I mean, he is training as an assassin (under one of the most skilled in the entire series) and he assists in assassinations. Seems like "assassin" is a pretty accurate title.