[Dayspring]

I am not quite clear on what Errastas and Setchul Lath accomplished when they murdered/killed/sacrificed Hood's wife at what came to be known as the Spar of Andii.
" [errastas] 'we make this place a trap. let its Tiste name stand. Spar of Andii it shall remain - it hardly covers a right to ownership. By our deeds we undermine its purity. K'url is not the only one who understand the efficacy of blood.'
[setchul lath] ' So you keep saying, but i wonder if we truly know what we're doing.'
[errastas] ' Perhaps you don't, though Abyss take me I've tried explaining it to you often enough. I know, Setch, and so you'll just have to trust me. K'url would simply give power away, freely, to any who might want it. By this, he undermines its value. He dislodges the proper order of things. We will best him, Setch. I will best him...Mother Dark understands the exclusivity of power, though she reaches too far, revealing outrageous greed. We must draw her into this fray. We must awaken her to the threat these new Warrens pose - to us all. It's important that she resist him, and so occupy all of K'rul's attention. So distracted, he will not see us, and most certainly not comprehend our intentions, until it is too late.'

Obviously they are running a con on K'rul, one they've mentioned in MBotF. Okay so K'rul opens up his blood to encompass maybe chaotic magic and make it more manageable, more orderly and accessible in the form of Warrens. The elder Holds are less defined, maybe occupy a weird fifth dimension that make up the physical "hold" of Kurald Galain but also the collective potential power/energy/magic of "Dark". So Errants and Setchul Lath, if I remember correctly, pull of this gambit where spilled blood empowers them? Where followers of other faith, mainly K'rul, who might think spilling blood will add efficacy to their spells are instead empowering those two? Does that make any sense? It's more than a bit vague, just wondering if anyone has a handle on this.

[Dayspring]

*elder Holds are less defined, such as in the case of Kurald Galain* I wasn't implying that all the elder holds are in Kurald galain

[heavymetaltroll]

Isn't the killing of Hoods wife how the Terrondai of Dark is created? My memory of FoD is a little hazy but that's how I remember it.

[Gorefest]

Well, the main question is: are there actually any 'Holds' at this point? Don't forget that a number of what we, during the MBotF, always considered as Elder Holds, turn out to be physical locations/cities in the world of the Azathenai and Tiste. There's the 'empty' city of Omtose PHellack; there is the land/province (for lack of a better term) of Kurald Galain where the Tiste live. So clearly they are more than just names of Holds, they are physical locations from where, presumably, the first magic of that particular type emerges. Mother Dark received the 'gift' of Darkness from Draconus, suggesting that at that point in time (FoD), most of the 'higher' magic (so not the more base magic of the land, rudimentary healing, communicating with ancestors, etc, which may already be available) is exclusive to the Azathenai (and, supposedly, in the separate realm of Wu, to the K'Chain Che'Malle matrons which may be tied in with them possibly descending from the Eleint who seem to be primordial vessels or representations of magic).

So it could be that K'rul wanted to break this exclusivity by making magic freely available to all through his blood, but Errastas harnessed the blood power through the murder of Hood's wife and so created what we come to know as the Holds, making himself the Master of the Holds through the Tiles that he makes using Hood's wife's blood.

Subsequently, K'rul later tries again by making a deal with the Eleint, who are somehow aspected to certain magic flavours or who maybe become so aspected through this deal, to circumvent the Holds and to create the eventual Warrens that he had planned to make in the first place before Errastas tainted and hijacked them.

But that's just my two pence, I may be way off.

This post has been edited by Gorefest: 27 March 2015 - 12:47 PM

[Dayspring]

Hmmm...I like that, it works. Btdubs, yes what became (already were? manifested as?) the Holds before existed as physical and mundane places, but at some point they become more than just a location. Kurald Galain becomes more than just the home of the Tiste Andii, it becomes a Hold, a repository/manifestation of power, as well as Omtose Phellack and etc...I guess the people and their chosen homegrounds become infused with whatever elemental energy becomes aspected to them? Makes me wonder about Wu...if somewhere on other worlds there are beings tapping into the Warren or Hold of Wu and are harnessing the energy of Humans or Eres'al. It's been referenced to a few times in the MBotF that dragons run close to Chaos, their blood, their breath...I wonder if Starvald Demelain is a sort of island or oasis in Chaos that dragons come from, and their being so the least ordered form of Chaos they are ideal repositories for magic?

So, what follows is conjecture mind you, MD before she's Mother Dark is a sorceress of some skill and she researches Chaos and somehow comes into and then the figurehead of the religion of Dark and catches the eye of Draconus, the Suzerain of Dark - or does she become associated with Dark only after consorting with Draconus? Anyway, Draconus who, not knowing how to properly express his feelings or how to properly interact in a relationship between 'equals' (as all relationships should exist as), decides to one up (more like ten up) on a normal gift and tasks Errastas to the making of a Terondae. Normally the sorceries of Dark (and other aspects) wander close to chaos and are thus unreliable or difficult to access, the Teron gifts MD with full mastery over Darkness...instead of presenting her a few cool spells or an engagement ring made of some rare diamond only found in darkness. Errastas figures out that he can't bind/fold so much essence into regular materials, until he discovers that blood will do the trick. Thus the Holds...T'riss opens up Light to the Liosan so he's not the middleman there, but maybe upon seeing the power of the Holds the other races petition Errastas to forge them their own Teron?, putting them in his debt (I assuming he is an accomplished artisan as Draconus went to him for the folding of Night) and making him the Master of Holds? Or they followed his suit and he knew something about the process to give him an edge. K'rul's gift is bypassed as it seems the magic K'rul offers is more refined and require some skill whereas it has been explicitly expressed that the power of the Holds is rawer?. And there are many instances of, unless wielded by someone skilled, the energy of a Hold just being unleashed. Or like you said maybe K'rul wanted sorcery for all and Errastas then tainted/nailed that free flowing sorcery into Holds, which K'rul then decided to further refine and open up by linking them to dragons who would carve their own paths...something like that.