[Andorion]

I have so far read the first three books in the series: Nightlife, Moonshine, and Madhouse.I have some definite problems I would like to raise and see if anybody else has also faced these while reading.

Note: There will be UNBLOCKED SPOILERS, so read at your own risk.



First issue is characters, specifically Niko and Promise.

Niko is perfect. A bit too perfect? Unbelievable at martial arts, he has the physical ability and tactical skill of a Special Forces officer, the intellectual ability of a major league academic and the mental stability of a Buddhist monk. How? Apparently its all self-taught. The only times he comes close to snapping is when he thinks his brother is dead, but even then all he does is get colder and deadlier. Its like somebody substituted a Terminator while no one was looking.

Promise is... well frankly I don't know what she is. Three books down and she has been cool, amused, sometime sympathetic and Niko's rich vampire girlfriend. Thats it. There is no spice to her. She is vanilla, only vanilla eaten in the dark, so mysterious.

Second issue is villains Now I know this series is written with more gritty overtones, which is fine, but all the villains are super uber-villains who are almsot impossible to kill.

Book 1 the villains are the Auphe who are like the ultimate predators who are feared by everybody. This is ok, I guess, due to Cal's history and everything, but having Cal kill his father offscreen and arguably off-plot and then letting Niko fight Auphe on a more or less equal basis, I mean no Auphe could win one on one, It was pure numbers all the time, it just seemd off.

Book 2 the villain is a Puck. The ultimate, original, deadliest Puck, who almost cannot be killed. Cal takes him out by chucking him through a gateway.

Book 3 its a murderous Redcap, and of course the deadliest most murderous Redcap, who is almost impervious to physical harm. Nobody even tried to explain how his ashes reanimated in the first place.

My main point is that all the villains are at the ultimate level. It strains the believability factor. Which brings us to believability.

Third issue: Believability: This mainly became an issue in the third book but its present in the second book as well. Niko and Cal go around carrying and using swords, guns with explosive rounds etc and literally nobody notices. They always seem to be able to leave just before the police arrive. In book 3 the revenants are taking students from a university campus. There are live eyewitnesses. The group run in, run out and nobody notices them? I mean this is post 9/11 New York! CCTV surveillance? The Redcap and his crew killed at least 6 non-homeless peopel including a famiy complete with kid. The cops would have inundated the area. There would have been a building by building search of the campus. None of this happens.

Then theres the factor that a family of man-eating mud monsters lives in Central Park. The horrific implications of this are explained away by saying that they only eat muggers and other criminals. Ummm. how exactly do they know that? The Boggles seem to be extremely ferocious hunters. In the 3rd book, after being seriously injured by the Redcap the mother Boggles main problem was she couldn't hunt. It wasn't a food procurement problem, her kids could get the food, but she just liked hunting. You know, killing for joy and all. And these creatures are supposed to only eat criminals?


After this there are the relatively minor problems:

Robins informants always trying to kill them....why did the mumy even do that? Because he was bored! And Cal gave him a gun as a present! Its never explained how how the sirrus got into the museum

George is a strangely underutilised character who is either the Damsle in Distress or somebody for Cla to pine over.

Frankly that whole Cal trying to get laid bit was just lame. I mean it was probably supposed be funny, but I found it rather sad and pathetic.

Then there are the annoying off-screen things I actually would have liked to see like how the Healers brother got turned into a wolf

So I was wondering whether other readers also had these issues, or whether its just me.

This post has been edited by Andorion: 04 March 2015 - 02:48 AM

[Puck]

Aww, damn, after typing the whole post I probably should preface it with 'yeah, I get your issues with it, I had them as well, though perhaps not as strongly, because I kept reading anyway'. Basically, a lot of your issues, especially the smaller ones, are either adressed later in-story or can be explained by, uh, thinking about it?
Also, this post may or may not make me look like a rabid fan of Cal Leandros I am not. Not rabid, anyway. But I love the books for what they do well and don't mind the faults.

So, here goes.. Also, further down I adress the spoilers for the first three books you mentioned, and those for book four I put in tags, just in case.


Right, as I already have mentioned elsewhere, I have read this series up to Roadkill, so I can address some of the things you said, but I will also say that seeing as you seem to dislike so much about it even after book three, this may just not be your cup of tea.

Personally, I love this series and that while I actually had A LOT of the same issues with it as you do. What kept me reading were those parts that did some interesting things with the genre and I have found that patience is the way to go. I love it. I love how I keep thinking 'meh, this is stupid' and then the books go and address that very same thing. But it takes some time. There's three things I have found to be the case with these books:
1. They're primarily character-, not plot-driven.
2. The very well done character development works it's magic mostly across several books.
3. The plot is very focused on what's the deal of the day in each book.

So far, each book has been more or less self-contained, while the characterisation stretches from book to book to become more intricate. I rolled my eyes at Nico for the first couple of books and I freaking prayed he'd boot Promise out, but they both get some serious development in book 4, similarly to what Robin got in book 3, except better written, because let's face it, that seemed a bit disconnected. Rafferty & Catcher get the same treatment in book 5, so here's were you look when you want to know how Catcher got trapped in a wolf-form. As mentioned, it's pretty focused, so to find out stuff, one has to wait for the book in question. One could argue whether that's a good or bad thing, but since I'm good with that, I frakly don't care.

At the same time, I enjoy seeing how each character changes based on what's gone before from book to book, and whoever claims that the tone of Cal's point of view does not change is clearly blind, deaf and also dead inside.

That said, yes, Nico is over-the-top. Hell, pretty much everyone is over-the-top. Promise is the prettiest, Cal is the angriest, Robin is the horniest, Rafferty is the best healer, one could go on endlessly. It's just that kind of series. One either lives with it or not. I've read stuff before where evereyone's the best and prettiest and everything but the story somehow seemed to want to hide that and turned into a convoluted mess, so I actually prefer it here where the story revels in it's over-the-top-ness and gets on with business.

As to the villains..

 Andorion, on 04 March 2015 - 02:47 AM, said:

Book 1 the villains are the Auphe who are like the ultimate predators who are feared by everybody. This is ok, I guess, due to Cal's history and everything, but having Cal kill his father offscreen and arguably off-plot and then letting Niko fight Auphe on a more or less equal basis, I mean no Auphe could win one on one, It was pure numbers all the time, it just seemd off.

I agree, the Auphe are played up as a bit too ultimate evulz for my liking as well. Then again, one could argue that that's the point. They may be the ultimate evil of times past, but now they're down on their luck and all that keeps everyone from zerg-rushing them into oblivion is their reputation. Why else would they need to stage all that crap in book 1? Why else would they need to go to the lengths of having a half-human/half-Auphe child produced? They're desperate. And even more so since in book 1 [spoiler for book 4 ahead]..

Spoiler

..the warehouse crashing down killed all the male Auphe. Only girls left. They've got nothing to lose anymore, except Cal, who is the last male living being with Auphe genes. That'd make everyone crazy.

Puts the 'Cal needs to get laid' stuff in books 3 in a somewhat new light, no? Irony is a bitch.

 Andorion, on 04 March 2015 - 02:47 AM, said:

Book 2 the villain is a Puck. The ultimate, original, deadliest Puck, who almost cannot be killed. Cal takes him out by chucking him through a gateway.

Hob may be the original puck (the way Robin puts is that Hob is the original madman, and the oldest puck around, but none of them seem sure who was actually the original puck, but I never got the impression he was invincible or anything, just really, really tough - like, say, a whole bunch of people running around in these books. If he was, he'd not need the crown thingie, right? Also, I was more pissed about Cal getting to use his gates instead of Hob getting thrown through one. I expect news on how Hob fared at some point down the road. That said, as soon as I started to get annoyed by Cal using gates left right and centre, Thurman subverts it again. This made me learn to trust her.

 Andorion, on 04 March 2015 - 02:47 AM, said:

Book 3 its a murderous Redcap, and of course the deadliest most murderous Redcap, who is almost impervious to physical harm. Nobody even tried to explain how his ashes reanimated in the first place.

Yeah, I agree, the Redcap business seems somewhat contrived. I'd rate the third book as the weakest so far. Personally, it gave me enough other good stuff to be fine with that. However, didn't Wahanket reanimate Sawney? Seemed enough of an explanation to me. Wahanket clearly is some kind of egyptian mojo magic wazoo and according to Robin probably not even human. He reanimates dead things for shits and giggles. Sure, we don't know how, but we also follow Cal's point of view, so how would we?

 Andorion, on 04 March 2015 - 02:47 AM, said:

My main point is that all the villains are at the ultimate level. It strains the believability factor. Which brings us to believability.

Third issue: Believability: This mainly became an issue in the third book but its present in the second book as well. Niko and Cal go around carrying and using swords, guns with explosive rounds etc and literally nobody notices. They always seem to be able to leave just before the police arrive. In book 3 the revenants are taking students from a university campus. There are live eyewitnesses. The group run in, run out and nobody notices them? I mean this is post 9/11 New York! CCTV surveillance? The Redcap and his crew killed at least 6 non-homeless peopel including a famiy complete with kid. The cops would have inundated the area. There would have been a building by building search of the campus. None of this happens.

So yeah, the villains ARE over-the-top. But so are the good guys

As to the believability.. Well, you either buy it or you don't. Believability is not exactly the focus of the series. For what it's worth, I think that within it's own universe the world is quite coherent and believable. If you're going to complain that people carry weapons around, might as well complain that there are mummies, a valkyrie heading the board of curators, revenants running around everywhere, and werewolves out in public.

 Andorion, on 04 March 2015 - 02:47 AM, said:

Then theres the factor that a family of man-eating mud monsters lives in Central Park. The horrific implications of this are explained away by saying that they only eat muggers and other criminals. Ummm. how exactly do they know that? The Boggles seem to be extremely ferocious hunters. In the 3rd book, after being seriously injured by the Redcap the mother Boggles main problem was she couldn't hunt. It wasn't a food procurement problem, her kids could get the food, but she just liked hunting. You know, killing for joy and all. And these creatures are supposed to only eat criminals?

Cal assumes they eat only criminals and iirc he doesn't believe that himself. Which leads us to another point which ties in to the above.. Believability and what I mentioned earlier about the plot being focused to the matter at hand. Cal actually starts wondering in book 3 about, say, the corpses the found hanging from trees at the start of book 3. Then there's the crashing warehouse in book 1. All the little things, the corpses they leave behind, like the dead students on campus, or the fact that none of it made the news.. Guess what? Along comes book 4 and..

Spoiler

..it's revealed that there's - surprise - a covert organisation that employs psychics to find scenes of monster evidence (the aforementioned corpses in the trees, the dead family in the warehouse, and so on) and covers up news reports (there's a picture of an Auphe riding the bus in the newspaper at one point which they couldn't cover up fast enough ). And they're not happy about the way Niko and Cal go about things.

 Andorion, on 04 March 2015 - 02:47 AM, said:

Robins informants always trying to kill them....why did the mumy even do that? Because he was bored! And Cal gave him a gun as a present! Its never explained how how the sirrus got into the museum

Yeah, they do. Also, yeah, Cal remarks on that on more than one occasion. It's not like Thurman tries to pass it and hopes nobody notices. No, she adresses the issue head on, which is what I like about the series. It is aware of itself, and after five books, I expect more to come on that. Basically, though, it seemed logical to me. Robin's informants are mostly beings hat have lived for a very long time and have never been on the nice side of the character scale. Also, he has a whole bunch of informants, and we have met.. two? Or three, depending on how one counts, as Ishiah's on the opposite scale, if I may say so.

 Andorion, on 04 March 2015 - 02:47 AM, said:

George is a strangely underutilised character who is either the Damsle in Distress or somebody for Cla to pine over.

Alright, I'll be honest, I loved how George's story got handled. I mean, you have this uber-talented psychic girl who's the main character's love interest, and she's sweet and nice and pretty and smells nice and she's wise and patient and just generally perfect, yes? Then she gets a damsel in distress plot-arc.. Holy fuck, I was ready to throw the books at the wall. But guess what? She's not actually a damsel in distress. She is a girl who gets kidnapped and being a psychic, she knows what will happen, so she calmly bides her time. She is so freaking stubborn that she insist on a relationship with Cal on her own terms and if he cannot accept the way she sees things in context of the whole universe - because, duh, he's been on the run all his life and all he asks for is a little consideration of anything that's less than of universal importance - , well, touch luck, dear Cal. So she folds her hands and waits for Cal to 'get it', and yet she's the 'superior' one in that constellation. And what does Cal do? He slams the door in her face. I thought that was suberbly handled. It's a realistical portrayal of a relationship between two young people who are so vastly different in character that only work on both sides could make it work, but both are too caught up in their own realities to realise that and act in ways that reflect that. It also serves as an incentive for Cal to move on and grow. There's another exploration of an unlikely relationship later, with Robin and.. ah, not saying But it goes in a wholly different direction while being handled with just as much understanding.

 Andorion, on 04 March 2015 - 02:47 AM, said:

Frankly that whole Cal trying to get laid bit was just lame. I mean it was probably supposed be funny, but I found it rather sad and pathetic.

Cal is pathetic. He's an angry teenager (he IS mentally younger than physically) with trauma and lots of issues. I thought the 'Cal needs to get laid' quest served quite well to show that he has this idea of never wanting to sire a child and still get laid and is so stuck up on it, it's pathetic. So he really needed something to show him he needed to relax some. That's probably why Robin dragged him to all those ridiculous.. acquaintances of his. Do you really think with all the people Robin fucks on a regular basis he wouldn't have found someone less ridiculous?

 Andorion, on 04 March 2015 - 02:47 AM, said:

Then there are the annoying off-screen things I actually would have liked to see like how the Healers brother got turned into a wolf

See book 5.


I do, of course, have my own issues with the series, first and foremost the way it rehashes what's gone before and Cal's past every damn book, several times over. I get it, I've read the previous books, so get on with things, damn you! But for now the good things outweight the bad ones.

It also annoyed me a lot that there was no hint in book 1 that Rafferty and Catcher are..

Spoiler

..werewolves. Makes sense, but still.

Also, I think Cal is hilarious. I see how one can get tired of him, but it's just right up my alley, humour-wise

I have a few things to say about the problems of the first book, but this post is already waaaay too long.

This post has been edited by Puck: 04 March 2015 - 12:31 PM

[Andorion]

Puck, you make some very good points. I read about half the 4th book on my commute today and I was mentally facepalming thinking "I really should have waited 1 more book before starting that thread.

So a lot of my issues do get addressed in this book. But first let me write what I should have written earlier. The things I like about these books.

1. Cal. I love reading about Cal. Took me sometime to get used to his scatterbrained PoV and Thurmans writing style but now I love him. He is sarcastic humour 1 second, in-your-face with a Desert Eagle the next. On the train today I was having a lot of trouble suppressing my laughter. the guy next to me was pretty convinced he had picked a loony to sit beside. His take on things is incomplete, but his thoughts add a lot to the narrative.

2. Robin: For me Robin is an achievement for Thurman. The character of the 'trickster' is in danger of becoming a cliche. When she first introduced him I was really worried how she was going ot use him See I had a very definite Robin Goodfellow in mind, and that was Neil Gaimans creation in Sandman. In contrast to that Thurmans comic take of an eternally horny puck with hidden depths is very interesting.

3. The grittiness: This was a major turn on fo rme. Thurman pulls no punches. There are dead bodies. The innocent suffer and die. Children die. The protagonists confront it, but they cannot, in some cases they actually be contitutionally incapable of truly empathizing with it. They see it, accept it, shrug and continue. This in my opinion is a much needed antidote to a lot of "urban" fantasy out there.

Oh yeah and I like Isiah. A lot.

Now the issues that Thurman has addressed in the 4th book:

Niko: The Niko PoVs were badly needed. The first PoV didnt really do much, but from the 2nd one, things got better. I uNderstand Niko better now. He is very tightly wound up. His emotions are there, but they are like a stormy sea beneath a thick layer of ice. The part after he found Promise had not been honest with him, were excellent.

Promise: This matter has not been completely addressed yet, but the addition of a daughter and Seamus, plus Promise showiing some actual emotion helped a lot.

Vigil: This was a godsend. A lot of things made sense after this.

As for George, my main issue with George is not enough screentime. Here is a powerful psychic with who knows what powers and she rarely even gets to speak. Its extremely annoying. I felt as if Thurman didn't really know how to handle a psychic character and sidelined her.

To be honest after the 3rd book I was ready to drop this series. The cliffhanger was the only thing that made me start the 4th one and I am glad I did. I have some more things to say, but I think I will write about them after the 4th book is done

[Puck]

Right, first off, since your opening post was mostly about what you disliked about the first three books I was not sure what your overall opinion was, so my reply was geared towards that. I think I know have a better idea

I totally get where you're coming from, though. The fourth book does adress a lot of the stuff that seemed wonky in the first three, but naturally, one cannot know that and not everyone can be expected to read on despite the issues, so personally while I love the series, I am of the opinion that it's not ideally structured. Though I think Thurman's getting better and better at that from book to book.

There's also the first book. I'd mentioned before I have some thoughts on that but did not want to clog up the thread with it, so here goes:
I have no official info on that, but the first book seems to me like a book that 1. a first book for Thurman and 2. mostly a stand alone simply because it probably was up in the air if there would be a continuation of the story. So I think Thurman crammed as much as she could into that first one and ended up with uber-powerful enemies (the Auphe), a very powerful psychic running around (George), some not too well fleshed out characters (Niko, where art though?) and somewhat clunky writing due to this being a first book. However, it does have some really good ideas and I still maintain that it was ballsy move to have Darkling take over as the PoV character midway through. While reading, I was dead certain there would be a PoV change, because most other run-of-the-mill urban fantasy would have done just that - a PoV change. But no, Thurman had the guts to go through with it, and however clunky that might have ended up, I respect the decision.

However, that also means that now she has to deal with all the stuff she brought into play in the first book and possibly did not think through as well as she should've. George, for example. I agree that she gets not enough screentime to really be as fleshed-out a character as the others, but I also understand the decision to limit her screentime, as George is simply way too powerful to get directly involved, so she needs to be kept in the background. It's not an ideal move, but its better than ending up with plotholes all over the place, so I think so far Thurman handles it gracefully enough. I am looking forward to how that develops later. She did eventually get around to fleshing out Niko and Promise and even Raff and Catcher, so who knows.

But that's just me enjoying watching the progress an author makes as much as the books themselves.

 Andorion, on 04 March 2015 - 03:26 PM, said:

1. Cal. I love reading about Cal. Took me sometime to get used to his scatterbrained PoV and Thurmans writing style but now I love him. He is sarcastic humour 1 second, in-your-face with a Desert Eagle the next. On the train today I was having a lot of trouble suppressing my laughter. the guy next to me was pretty convinced he had picked a loony to sit beside. His take on things is incomplete, but his thoughts add a lot to the narrative.

Same. I love Cal's PoV. He's so incredibly funny in that snarky voice of his, and at the same time, there's some serious development evident. I read the books back in January when I was on sick-leave due to bronchitis and I fondly remember not being able to breathe properly for minutes because I was laughing so hard.

Originally, I started reading the series because I had come upon it on tvtropes and it sounded just so ridiculously over-the-top that it could only be either a total car crash or a very boatload of fun. I am glad it ended up being the latter

 Andorion, on 04 March 2015 - 03:26 PM, said:

2. Robin: For me Robin is an achievement for Thurman. The character of the 'trickster' is in danger of becoming a cliche. When she first introduced him I was really worried how she was going ot use him See I had a very definite Robin Goodfellow in mind, and that was Neil Gaimans creation in Sandman. In contrast to that Thurmans comic take of an eternally horny puck with hidden depths is very interesting.

Agreed on all counts. I am quite fond of the trickster archetype and Robin Goodfellow in particular, but it's been used so often, and often not very well, that it's becoming something of a beaten horse, thus I am so so so freaking glad Thurman found a way to give Goodfellow a new spin and make him believable and not just some character who happens to be named Goodfellow. I love Robin.

Also, Ishiah. He's glorious. Despite the little screentime he's gotten so far (waaay too little) and also despite the fact that usually a blonde, blue-eyed, winged.. whatever, I'm just generally not a fan of these. Same goes for werewolves, vampires, you name it.. But the way Cal handles werewolves is just too hilarious.

Anyway, looking forward to your reaction to the end of book 4. If I am honest, I loved how it was written, but had a rather negative reaction to the way they handled..

Spoiler

..the Auphe. I mean, seriously, A NUKE? I mean, I get the idea, but meh, it came out of nowhere. Not a fan of that development.

But hey, won't make me stop jumping right into book 6 as soon as I get enough free time to read again at all


Edit:
Also, to adress this:

 Briar King, on 04 March 2015 - 03:57 AM, said:

Haven't read this. Isn't there Redcaps in Dresden? Sounds so familiar but I can't place it. Maybe I'm just thinking about Red Mask in Malazan 7?

No idea about Dresden, but Redcaps are folklore creatures, so they're bound to show up in various urban fantasy universes which draw on folklore and the common urban fantasy bestiary.

This post has been edited by Puck: 04 March 2015 - 07:33 PM

[Obdigore]

You have problems with the books because they are, unequivocally, shit.

I read the first two books the first time I was missing a Dresden Fix, and this is the far other end of the 'urban fantasy' spectrum.

Don't waste your time, scrub your brain, these are tuuuuribad.

[Andorion]

 Obdigore, on 04 March 2015 - 11:25 PM, said:

You have problems with the books because they are, unequivocally, shit.

I read the first two books the first time I was missing a Dresden Fix, and this is the far other end of the 'urban fantasy' spectrum.

Don't waste your time, scrub your brain, these are tuuuuribad.

No, no let me asssure you i have seen the other end of the urban fantasy spectrum and it is.....sexy! A super-sexy female protagonist is torn between a sexy werewolf alpha pack leader or a sexy vampire loner or why not a sexy human police officer? I dont remember the name of the book but I didnt make it even halfway in.

[Andorion]

 Briar King, on 04 March 2015 - 03:57 AM, said:

Haven't read this. Isn't there Redcaps in Dresden? Sounds so familiar but I can't place it. Maybe I'm just thinking about Red Mask in Malazan 7?

I dont remember any Redcaps in Dresden. Even if they were present they were probably not major characters.

[Puck]

 Obdigore, on 04 March 2015 - 11:25 PM, said:

You have problems with the books because they are, unequivocally, shit.

I read the first two books the first time I was missing a Dresden Fix, and this is the far other end of the 'urban fantasy' spectrum.

Don't waste your time, scrub your brain, these are tuuuuribad.

It's okay, Obdi, I know you have terrible taste. Your first mistake was trying to use Cal Leandros as a Dresden fix. But mostly it's your terrible, terrible taste.

 Andorion, on 05 March 2015 - 12:57 AM, said:

 Obdigore, on 04 March 2015 - 11:25 PM, said:

You have problems with the books because they are, unequivocally, shit.

I read the first two books the first time I was missing a Dresden Fix, and this is the far other end of the 'urban fantasy' spectrum.

Don't waste your time, scrub your brain, these are tuuuuribad.

No, no let me asssure you i have seen the other end of the urban fantasy spectrum and it is.....sexy! A super-sexy female protagonist is torn between a sexy werewolf alpha pack leader or a sexy vampire loner or why not a sexy human police officer? I dont remember the name of the book but I didnt make it even halfway in.

I am almost ashamed of myself that I can guess what that atrocity probably was. Along with a whole bunch of other 'sexy female protagonist has awesome sex for no good plot-relevant reason with sexy-smexy vampire/werewolf/demon/angel/redcap and gains awesomez superowerz' stuff. They made me steer clear of the urban fantasy genre as a whole for years.

This post has been edited by Puck: 05 March 2015 - 10:44 AM

[D'rek]

There is indeed a Redcap in Dresden. He's a faerie and appears in Cold Days.

[Andorion]

Finished the 4th book. Bit of an OTT conclusion to the Auphe arc. But holy shit, when Nico goes berserk, he totally means it! Knew there was something wrong with that chupa. nothing is that cute and innocent

This book did wonders in fleshing out Promise and Nico.

The Vigil answered some major shortcomings of the previous books, but went a bit OTT at the end. A suitcase nuke? Really?

Seeing as this is the end of the Auphe arc, I am Temporarily putting this series down. Will return to it after Stormlight Archive

[Puck]

As I said, the whole 'holy shit' that is the fourth book was a bit temptered by them using a nuke to get rid of the last Auphe, otherwise this would've been a perfect book for the Cal Leandros series. I get the reasoning and stuff, but that just came out of nowhere. Meh.

On the other hand, I loved everything else about the end of Deathwish. The way Cal feels the end of the last Auphe in his mind, the way he takes out that last Auphe.. Losing all rationality and just taking a bite out of it's throat was a amazing image. Oh, and then when Niko comes home and goes berserk and shit.. Awesome. Also, that he had the guts and resolve to dispose of Cherish AND the way Promise handled it.. Well, overall it saved the ending for me, despite that cop-out nuke.

Fortunately, Thurman's developed a tendency to make those things play into other things, so hell yeah.

Oh, and I think it's a good idea to take a break. Book 5 is so very different from book 4 (which is also just really awesome - despite the nuke, I just can't get over it) that it might be somewhat jarring. Book 5 is lots of character development for everyone involved and lots of doing nothing for the sake of character development with what may feel like an excuse for a plot. I liked it lots, but it may be jarring right after book 4.

Maaan, I so want to read book 6 NOW. I want more Ishiah screentime. But, alas, uni stuff.

This post has been edited by Puck: 08 March 2015 - 11:34 AM

[Abyss]

Coming into this thread about 1/3rd through DEATHWISH, in earbook same as bks 1-3. I skipped your last couple of posts and I won't be back 'til I'm done 4, but have to agree with most of Puck and Andorion's comments... in particular that the books steadily improve, the ott elements are fun once you just go with it, and Cal can be hysterical. Annoying at times, but mostly good fun. It's urban fantasy as entertaining popcorn reads... not Dresden level but holds my attention.




Glad I stuck with the series despite the authors unfortunate metaphor problem in bk1 that wound through it like a snake not just eating its own tail but vomiting up said tail like a fratboy clearing last night's drunken 5am meatball sub, the kind of sub like momma used to make if your momma hated you, with the kind of hate that burns hot in the daylight and cold in the night, cold like ice, like winter, the winter of our discontent, the kind of discontent that revolutions rise and fall over like the tides of the ocean on a distant shore where the sun burns down on what was I talking about....?

[Abyss]

50% into DEATHWISH and I'm not sure what was funnier...Robin's cat or the strip poker game or "he's my brother... 20 minutes.". This book is this series' SUMMER KNGHT. Thurman really raises her game here.Her... Btw I didn't know that til I scanned thru this thread.

[Puck]

Finished Downfall yesterday and imma gonna rant a bit about this book, because I thought it was pants. No spoilers above the spoiler tag.

Holy crap, the REPETITION. I mean, I've been defending Thurman in previous installments in regards to the repetition or rather, it was meh, but understandable, and usually only present in the first and/or second chapter and that it'd be all good Cal fun. Not this time! I don't know what the hell went wrong, but half the book was a rehashing of what's happened before. And I get that it's the final to an arc and lots of cameos and yadda yadda, but that was really painful. You'd think that this far into the series (book nine, after all), the reader would know who's who!

Especially annoying were the parts where the same thing would be said several times withing a few paragraphs - and I'm not talking about a certain someone reliving his worst moment in history again and again, that was understandable and character development. I'm talking about stuff that's happened in previous books being repeated over and over again, as if Thurman had written it, gone off for a coffee, gotten back and rewritten it again.

I repeat: book nine in a series, any reader would know what's gone before, one reminder is the most that's needed.

This is excusable with only one character in this book. Though that new PoV was made me really happy. Unfortunately, even that got dragged down by the repetition. Then again, we've known for a long time now that Robin's dick is Robin's favourite subject.

I suspect that one big problem of the book in comparison to the previous ones was that there's only one plotline. While in previous installments there'd be at least two plotlines running alongside each other and intertwining, here there's only one, but to fill the entire book it had to be bloated to the extreme. The two different points of view only served to masquerade as different plotlines - in the end, it was one bloated monstrosity set on repeat. This is especially jarring in comparison to Deathwish, which was a blast of an arc final and juggled multiple storylines superbly.

Now to the spoilery stuff..

Spoiler

I don't mind retcon when done well, really. I'm fine with the reincarnation stuff and even Robin having encountered Cal and Niko when the were kids, as well as Robin having taught them in all their previous lifes. That had been coming for several books.

What REALLY annoyed me was Rafferty. His storyline had a nice end in Roadkill, and even if Thurman wanted to bring him back, I'd have bought it if it hadn't been in such a flimsy, handwavy way.. So yeah, instead of doing what he said he'd do in Roadkill, namely give up and realize he cannot 'heal' Catcher, he reconsidered, went to Canada and met Fenris and suddenly can do ALL THE STUFF! ..come on. Thurman mneeded a way to resolve the mess she wrote herself into with Grimm, is my guess. I'd had a bad feeling about Grimm the moment he was introduced, devoid of any character traits other than being evil *sigh*

Also, Robin.. Now, I loved Robin's storyline and point of view, but that last two chapters with him gloating how awesome and tricksy he is, that felt really tacked on. In fact, the last chapter was much better, with him ending it all in secret. The second to last chapter was pants.

And last but not least, the end.. I'd already said in this very thread after finishing Deathwish that I'd disliked the use of the nuke to kill the Auphe because it would be very difficult to believably top that in a potential later book and yeah, here we go.. Gating all the Bae into the sun DOES make sense, but in combination to the remainder of the book it didn't do much to improve it and felt out of proportion, though that may be because Grimm turned out to be a non-entity.

What this book needed was more proof of how dangerous Grimm was. More stuff like Grimm showing up in Robin's appartment and nonchalantly giving them his phone number. More moments like Cal slicing Grimm open like a turkey. More Grimm showing WHAT he can do, instead of everyone and their mom shitting their pants about how evulz Grimm is. The Auphe had been a real palpable threat in the early books. Grimm seemed like a boogeyman. Robin outmaneuvering him and Ishiah beheading him was really more like a mercy kill.

Now, not everything was bad, but I feel like Thurman's strong points (character development, humour, bite) were buried beneath the repetition and drudgery. It picked up in the second half, and there was some of the old tension in regards to Cal and his heritage, but it fell short.

I am not a happy Puck right now, though there's hope Nevermore will pick up again. Maybe the Grimm story arc was just doomed from the start.

This post has been edited by Puck: 20 March 2016 - 12:34 PM

[Abyss]

So here i am about 1/3rd of the way into the BLACKOUT earbook and i realize i havn't really gotten back here.
It seems like its just the three of us, so...

NIGHTLIFE.... Nightlife has a lot of problems. The main one, the writing... the endless redundant painful irritating inner monologue metaphors and similes , i have slammed enough elsewhere, like a distant tide that you can hear but not see until it wears down the earth beneath your feet and leaves you plunging into an abyss, an abyss of endless metaphors and similes that i have slammed enough elsewhere in other threads, thread that exist in a parallel reality just like this one only similar enough that they echo into this reality like a distant tide that makes me want to stab myself in the ears... . The characters are pretty fun tho and the overall story works well enough to have carried me through it. MacCloud Andrews, the narrator, deserves a lot of credit for that too. Extra credit for having the guts to keep the inner monologue going even when Cal was possessed. That was a fun twist.

I sort of wonder whether Thurman shouldn't have saved the big world threatening Aufe storyline for a few books in, which might have also helped with the bigger problem with Nightlife ... that Thurman ignores or contradicts large chunks of the book in later books.

The Aufe are a bit of a joke... Nick kills one offscreen. They kill a bunch of them in fights throughout the book. They just aren't that credible a threat and their big Conquer The World plan reads like something GIJoe would have had to stop Cobra from doing.

So the Aufe we see in DEATHWISH, basically Mako sharks on legs, two of which can take on the whole Cal Crew, are just not consistent. I suppose it could have been explained away as these were the females and they were nastier than the males, but Thurman didn't go there. And DEATHWISH was a really fun book that made me wish the Aufe back in Nightlife had been more like this.

Then the minor but silly inconsistencies... in Nightlife Promise says she doesn't drink blood so she has no vamp powers, but in MOONSHINE she all but tears some Wolves to pieces. Cal makes a point of saying Rafferty and Catcher aren't Wolves, but lo-and-behold in ROADKILL they are Wolves from page one, more or less. These are little things, they could have been easily explained away, but she forgot or didn't bother and it just makes NIGHTLIFE that much less.

MOONSHINE was fun. I liked Thurman's werewolves, they're uglier and far less glorified than most urban fantasy writers do. Cerberus was a great villian, as was the final baddie and i really liked how Cal ultimately beat him by being willing to die.

MADHOUSE... the Redhat was an excellent baddie. Simple yet effective and challenging. Also, Robin trying to get Cal laid was one of the funniest things i have read in ages. Also, hairless undead homicidal mummy cat.

DEATHWISH was insane and great fun the these Aufe were the villains i wanted. The rest of the story with Cherish wasn't bad either and i enjoyed how there were just so many things going wrong all at once.

ROADKILL was pure roadtrip joy. I enjoyed it far far more than i expected to, the chasracters shined, the end was insane and Rafferty and the Anti-healer throwing diseases at each other was something i had never read before. Successful book, all around.

I do give Thurman huge props for her world... she uses fun, unusual or original races and mythologies and works them in nicely, isn't afraid to mess with the tropes, and overall keeps things more grounded in weird shit was can't explain rather than 'magic'.

Which brings us to...

 Abyss, on 21 March 2016 - 02:23 PM, said:

 Andorion, on 21 March 2016 - 09:34 AM, said:

 Puck, on 21 March 2016 - 07:19 AM, said:

 Abyss, on 21 March 2016 - 02:16 AM, said:

 Puck, on 20 March 2016 - 10:04 PM, said:

Finished Downfall yesterday, and even after a whole day, I still think this book must've been written by a trained monkey instead of Rob Thurman. My rant can be found in the dedicated thread.

So naturally, looking for more pain, I started book 10, Nevermore. This better be back on track. The prologue's already much better. Cal forgot the pizza, shit went 'splody. Good times. Hopefully.

Am on BLACKOUT. Cal's inner monologue is tiresome. Considering how good ROADKILL was, this is meh.

Blackout does pick up after a bit. Also, imagine that inner monologue turned up to eleven and stream-of-consciousness style. The former is basically all Downfall consists of, and the latter seems to be building up to be the style of Nevermore. If this continues, I'm considering calling it quits and pretending the series ended after Downfall, as bad as that one was, but it was a good ending. I didn't mind the flaws of the first eight books because the FUN was much bigger. I love that series. But eh, no.

I think the series should have ended at Downfall. There were 0 plot reasons to continue. Which is why I did not pick up Nevermore

Gonna drag us back to the ded-thread. Stand-by.

Bummer to read this. I still have DOUBLETAKE and SLASHBACK to go before DOWNFALL, all in earbook so i'll keep going regardless, but it seems a lot of Thurman's weaknesses... the repetition, the needless reiteration of things the readers already know, Cal endlessly telling us what a badass he is, get worse, not better.

I browsed Thurman's site and blog, it seems as tho her publisher pressured her to start two new series', they didn't succeed, and now she's being dropped and looking to self-pub only the Cal/Nik series going fwd.
Oddly some of her comments suggest she thinks that the fans didn't read the new series' bcs they only wanted more Cal/Nik. ...

[Andorion]

I generally agree with Abyss, though I had a problem with the Redcap book - they basically repeated the same "team up, hunt, get beaten up" thingy a number of times.

I felt the books from about number 4 to 8/9 were really quite good.

This brings me to Downfall

Spoiler

I really did not like the reincarnation thing, while I appreciated Robin's PoV the integration of the reincarnation plotline seemed kind of choppy to me.

Edit: I am waiting on Pucks closing thoughts to decide whether I should ever touch the series again. the blurb did not attract me at all

This post has been edited by Andorion: 22 March 2016 - 03:22 AM

[Abyss]

BLACKOUT is growing on me. Marginally. Am massively tired of Cal's inner monologue telling the reader what a badass he is, but Nik's struggle, which is more apparent to the reader than to Cal, is interesting.

Also, Ish and Robin's Halloween costumes were frikkin hysterical, it cracks me up every time Cal is attacked in the washroom, and Boggle and kids are fast becoming my favorite monsters, tho Delilah`s Lupas are pretty neat.

[Abyss]

Finished BLACKOUT. It got better but coming off the prior two books it could only be weaker. Amnesia Cal just was not that different from Normal Cal, so the key story point wasn't all that effective. The most interesting thing in the whole book happened in the epilogue.
Into DOUBLETAKE now... The Pan-ic may be the single funniest thing I've read since "I'd kill the mule!". This earbook narrator is fantastic.... He actually made all the Puck voices the same yet different.

[Puck]

Yeah, Panic was nice

Also, I'm not commenting on the upthread because I want to finish Nevermore first and give my opinion on that. Two chapters left. It's slow going *sigh*

[Abyss]

DOUBLETAKE was fun. I enjoyed the multiple things going on, Grim was a solid opponent, the Janus was insane, the action scenes were exceptional... Herphaestus... The market... Seriously this book was a blast.
On to SLASHBACK.