Malazan Empire: Some things I didn't like/get about this book.(SPOILERS Beware) - Malazan Empire

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Some things I didn't like/get about this book.(SPOILERS Beware)

#1 User is offline   Keysi 

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Posted 24 February 2015 - 01:50 PM

Because listing things I did like or love would take too long :p Spoilers for GotM ahead.


Ok first of all, I was a bit confused about Murrilio's fighting ability. I was pretty sure at somepoint Rallick was musing about how good a fencer Murrilio must be, even to the point of being an Adept and would easily take out Turban Orr, and yet later once Rallick has been injured and may not be able to do his part in the duel against Orr, both Murrilio frets about having to take his place and Rallick even tells him he will be killed. Quite confusing.

The whole romance thing between Paran and 'Sail seemed too rushed, no real feeling to it. I know they were supposed to have spent 3 weeks together but as a reader I didn't get any sense of attachment between them, then bang, it happened, he loves her? Hmm.

Now I know we are supposed to be rooting for and falling in love with the Bridgeburners, but their activities in Daru....seems like outright terrorism to me...they are planting roadside bombs that they even aknowledge will take out civvies.

The Grayfaces...what tha....people look up to, respect and are even in awe of and seem to love(that drunk guy was hilarious) a bunch of gas lamp lighters? Now I'm no historian, but I didn't think that job back in the old days carried much sense of glamour or romance.

Unless....are they going to become more plot relevant later in the series? If so they sorta remind me of a group of characters from the Legacy of Kain computer game series, who are responsible for maintaining a sort of magical/electricity network in one of the cities in one of the games. (On a side note LoK has one of the most beautiful, deep, spine tinglingly awesoe stories I have experienced in any media, check it out if you're a game person)


Anyway that's all I can think of for now, great book, loved it. And if it's true that this is by far the weakest entry in the series then I am prepared to be blown away.



This post has been edited by Keysi: 24 February 2015 - 01:51 PM

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#2 User is offline   Andorion 

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Posted 24 February 2015 - 06:17 PM

View PostKeysi, on 24 February 2015 - 01:50 PM, said:

Because listing things I did like or love would take too long :p Spoilers for GotM ahead.


Ok first of all, I was a bit confused about Murrilio's fighting ability. I was pretty sure at somepoint Rallick was musing about how good a fencer Murrilio must be, even to the point of being an Adept and would easily take out Turban Orr, and yet later once Rallick has been injured and may not be able to do his part in the duel against Orr, both Murrilio frets about having to take his place and Rallick even tells him he will be killed. Quite confusing.

The whole romance thing between Paran and 'Sail seemed too rushed, no real feeling to it. I know they were supposed to have spent 3 weeks together but as a reader I didn't get any sense of attachment between them, then bang, it happened, he loves her? Hmm.

Now I know we are supposed to be rooting for and falling in love with the Bridgeburners, but their activities in Daru....seems like outright terrorism to me...they are planting roadside bombs that they even aknowledge will take out civvies.

The Grayfaces...what tha....people look up to, respect and are even in awe of and seem to love(that drunk guy was hilarious) a bunch of gas lamp lighters? Now I'm no historian, but I didn't think that job back in the old days carried much sense of glamour or romance.

Unless....are they going to become more plot relevant later in the series? If so they sorta remind me of a group of characters from the Legacy of Kain computer game series, who are responsible for maintaining a sort of magical/electricity network in one of the cities in one of the games. (On a side note LoK has one of the most beautiful, deep, spine tinglingly awesoe stories I have experienced in any media, check it out if you're a game person)


Anyway that's all I can think of for now, great book, loved it. And if it's true that this is by far the weakest entry in the series then I am prepared to be blown away.





Lets see, about the Paran-Tattersail thing, it was never really a fully developed love story. Basically they were both thrown together when they were very vulnerable and weak, and each helped in the others recovery. More importantly they also found that they shared similar opinions. So it was essnetiall ya budding romance, which never reached the next stage. And you have to understand that compared to Tattersail, Paran at this stage is quite young and impressionable.

The Bridgeburners enter Darujhistan as a hostile covert ops team. Their entire mission is to cause mayhem and they are very good at that. The thing about Malazan is that for most of the books there are various groups you may like, identify with, who may not necessarily see eye to eye. Its not really a simple good vs bad thing.

The Greyface thing has to be seen in the larger context. Darujhistan is the only city i the world with natural gas powered street lightimg. Darujhistan is the "city of Blue Flame" famous for the beauty of the lights . Its something unique. The Greyfaces are the ones who light the lamps each night. Their function can be read less as just a boring public utility and more as a ritual that is tied in with Daru identity.
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#3 User is offline   Keysi 

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Posted 26 February 2015 - 01:58 PM

Yea I get what you mean about Paran being the impressionable one, it was he who said( or thought to himself) that he loved her, not the other way around, IIRC.

With the Bridgeburners planting bombs though, as much as I love the shades of gray morality in this type of thing, I'm finding it hard to see what's gray exactly about what they are up to. Planting roadsides bombs that will undoubtedly kill civilians isn't exactly a gray area, especially since they are still doing it on behalf of the Empire, who are only being painted as the bad guys at this stage. I know WJ knows about Dujek's plan to rebel and all that but still, inn this day and age with all the terrorism going on it's hard to sympathize with them on this one, just seems strange because it's pretty obvious that Erikson does want s to root and even fall in love with the BBs.Its not a massive issue it just seems a strange way to go about it in the first book I guess.
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#4 User is offline   Gorefest 

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Posted 26 February 2015 - 02:23 PM

You're not supposed to sympathise with it, it is a nasty tactic. but the sappers are a nasty bunch. Munitions are the Great Leveler, in many ways.
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#5 User is offline   Tiam is an Imploding Unit 

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Posted 26 February 2015 - 02:59 PM

View PostKeysi, on 26 February 2015 - 01:58 PM, said:

Planting roadsides bombs that will undoubtedly kill civilians isn't exactly a gray area, especially since they are still doing it on behalf of the Empire, who are only being painted as the bad guys at this stage. I know WJ knows about Dujek's plan to rebel and all that but still, inn this day and age with all the terrorism going on it's hard to sympathize with them on this one, just seems strange because it's pretty obvious that Erikson does want s to root and even fall in love with the BBs.Its not a massive issue it just seems a strange way to go about it in the first book I guess.


Well, this book was released in 1999, when terrorism was much more endearing.
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#6 User is offline   Andorion 

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Posted 26 February 2015 - 05:05 PM

The issue is one of perspective. From the point of view of the BBS Darujhistan is a potentially histile city and future military target. There mission is to cause disruption. Therefore they will do so. The fame of the BBs don't come from them being the "good guys" but a bunch of deadly, professional soldiers who are great at difficult missions. From the PoV of the people at the receiving end it will of course be an act of monstrous violence.

I think it would be better if you didn't let your views on terrorism obscure the reading of a 99 book. Using internal plot logicis often more enlightening in these cases
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#7 User is offline   Egwene 

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Posted 26 February 2015 - 05:41 PM

View PostKeysi, on 26 February 2015 - 01:58 PM, said:

Yea I get what you mean about Paran being the impressionable one, it was he who said( or thought to himself) that he loved her, not the other way around, IIRC.

With the Bridgeburners planting bombs though, as much as I love the shades of gray morality in this type of thing, I'm finding it hard to see what's gray exactly about what they are up to. Planting roadsides bombs that will undoubtedly kill civilians isn't exactly a gray area, especially since they are still doing it on behalf of the Empire, who are only being painted as the bad guys at this stage. I know WJ knows about Dujek's plan to rebel and all that but still, inn this day and age with all the terrorism going on it's hard to sympathize with them on this one, just seems strange because it's pretty obvious that Erikson does want s to root and even fall in love with the BBs.Its not a massive issue it just seems a strange way to go about it in the first book I guess.


Keysi, you say that SE wants us to root for the Bridgeburners, yet the way you say it indicates that he failed in that where you are concerned. Well... I don't think he did. Your reaction is probably exactly what he was trying to achieve. I too, had moments of 'wait a minute', innocent people, including children will die in this. He shows the brutality and reality of war, how war does away with civilized behaviour in a big way, the senselessness of it. He shows us the reality of how 'heroes' come to be.

On the other side, the many passages where the perpetrators are trying very hard not to think too much about what they are doing, again, highlighting the ambiguity of the justifications that the human race finds for committing acts of atrocity. It is then, in the one-to-one relationships, in the odd-ones-out acts of mercy, in the loyalty of squad-mates where we find the traces of hope that maybe these hardened soldiers have another side to them and with them, that there is hope, for them and for humanity.
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#8 User is offline   Keysi 

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Posted 26 February 2015 - 11:42 PM

Yea the fact that it was written in 99 was the main explanation for it I was thinking, it just seemed TOO unconventional, even for a series like this to have (some of) the protagonists acting like that. Especially as they were still working on behalf of the empire who they knew wanted them dead.

Any thoughts on the Murillio question? That bit really confused me.
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#9 User is offline   Andorion 

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Posted 27 February 2015 - 03:08 AM

There does seem to be a contradiction here. Lets go over the relevant areas:

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The assassin still wondered about his friend's reluctance.His first thought was that Murillio feared the possibility of a duel withTurban Orr. But Murillio was no slouch with a rapier. Rallick had practisedwith him in secluded places enough times to suspect that he was an Adept – andto that even Turban Orr could not make claim.
No, it wasn't fear that made Murillio shy from this part ofthe plan. It dawned on Rallick that there was a moral issue at stake. A wholenew side of Murillio had revealed itself to Rallick then.



So Rallick thinks Murillio has the ability, but maybe not the confidence.

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Rallick shook his head. 'I may not be here when they comeback,' he said. 'Tell Murillio to go ahead if I don't show, and if other ...events occur. And, if that happens, tell him our man's eyes are open.' Rallickfilled his tankard and drained it immediately. Then he rose. 'Don't wish meluck,' he said.


At this point Rallick is ready to regard Murillio as a backup. But this isn't internal thought. Maybe he doesn't want to express his doubts about Murillio to a 3rd party.



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Rallick lay unmoving for a time, wondering at the absenceof pain. The plan would fall to Murillio now. Coll would be avenged. Murilliocould handle it – he had no choice.








Severely injured after the duel with Ocelot, Rallick thinks he cant handle the plan and Murillio has to step up, but I think we need to factor in the distorting effects of pain from the injury into his thought process



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'Stupid idea.' Rallick groaned. 'You'll just get killed andTurban Orr will walk away, still Lady Simtal's backer and still powerful enoughto prevent Coil's claim to rights.'

Murillio made no reply to that.


At this stage, even though Rallick does not know it, the Otatoral has healed him. So he feels he still has a decent chance, and wants to keep Murillio out of it.




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If Coll lived, Murillio vowed to attempt Rallick's role inthe plan. He checked his rapier. It'd been years since his last duel, andTurban Orr was said to be the city's best. His chances looked poor.


Rallick was correct. Murillio lacked confidence. In a duel with a skilled opponent, the one lacking confidence and killing instinct, even in spite of having superior skill, would probably lose. As we shall see, killing instinct was very important.



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Turban Orr's smile tightened. The bastard would pay forthat, he vowed. He lowered himself into a crouch, ready to launch an attack assoon as the duel began.

Baruk said, 'You have been heard, Estraysian D'Arle.' Thealchemist raised a handkerchief before him, then released it.

Turban Orr jumped forward and lunged in a single, fluidmotion, so fast he'd fully extended his weapon before the handkerchief struckthe paving stones. He saw his opponent's left hand dart under his blade, thentwist up and outward, a short, curved knife flashing in its grip. The parry wasa blur, yet Orr caught it and deftly disengaged, driving his point low andtowards the man's mid-section. He had no time even to notice the second knife,as Rallick turned his body sideways, the blade in his right hand guiding TurbanOrr's sword past him. The assassin stepped in then, his left hand moving in ahigh swing that buried its blade in the councilman's neck. Rallick followedthis by driving his other knife into Orr's chest.

The councilman staggered to one side, his sword clanging onthe stones as he clutched at the gushing wound in his neck. The motion wasreflex, for he was already dead from the wound in his heart. He toppled.

Rallick stepped back, weapons once again hidden beneath hiscloak. 'A thousand other deaths,' he whispered, so low that only Baruk and Rakeheard him, 'would not have satisfied me. But I'll settle for this one.'

Baruk stepped close and made to speak, but then, at agesture from Rake, he turned to see Estraysian D'Arle approaching.

The councilman's heavy eyes held Rallick. 'I might suspect,'he said, 'given your style, that we have witnessed an assassination. Of course,not even the Guild of Assassins is brash enough to commit public murder.Therefore I've no choice but to keep such suspicions to myself. And leave it atthat. Good evening, gentlemen.' He whirled and strode away.

'I think,' Rake said, his masked face swinging to theassassin, 'that that was a rather uneven match.'



A rush of people closed in around Turban Orr's body. Voicesshouted in dismay.



The duel in the end, was not so much a duel as a decorous assasination, as D'Arle points out. In the fight itself, note Orr, is extremely fast. So fast in fact that he saw te parry, countered it, and would have struck a blow, if not for Rallicks totally unconventional attack. A normal duellist, even an adept, who did not have Rallicks two blades and an intent to kill, forsaking all duel formalities, would probably have lost.

So, even though Rallick does vacillate about Murillio, there is good reason for this, and in the end, he was probably correct.
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#10 User is offline   heavymetaltroll 

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Posted 27 February 2015 - 11:47 PM

In regards to Paran and Tattersails romance, RAFO. Explained in MoI
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#11 User is offline   Puck 

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 10:21 AM

The first paragraph Andorion quoted is a major clue, I think. Murillio lacks the confidence because he has qualms about killing. Duelling for fun and profit may be one thing, and he may be one of the best duellists in the city, but that does not equal being able to go through with it and kill your opponent. Both Murillio and Rallick know this and also that the smallest hesitation can and most likely will lead to losing the duel in such a case, as Turban Orr was a well known duellist with a taste for killing his opponents. Rallick, on the other hand, kills for a living and is, unlike Murillio, not bound by a lifetime of fighting by duelling standards/rules; he does not hesitate to fight unconventionally and kills on the spot.

So what this comes down to is that Murillio may very well be Turban Orr's equal in normal circumstances but his inherent moral stance keeps him from being so in this particular situation. Rallick is aware of that, and also probably wants to spare Murillio the burden of having killed someone intentionally. The point is, it's one thing to cook up a plan that involves killing and a wholly different thing to actually go through with it.

This post has been edited by Puck: 28 February 2015 - 10:31 AM

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#12 User is offline   Archibald 

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Posted 17 March 2015 - 08:33 PM

Don't see the need for a new thread so posted here. New member by the way.

I've just finished the first book and although I enjoyed a lot of it, there was some stuff I thought was utterly absurd and took the shine off this book for me. I just have a few questions before I consider buying the next.

First, right from the off, soul shifting. Nothing wrong with the idea, but shifting into an inanimate object like a puppet or a bag of rotten body parts? Seems completely irrational to me and essentially makes every sorcerer an immortal. It wouldn't be so bad but it's done with no substance to support it, no theory, nothing. Could have been far better thought out, but I give the writer his licence, it's his world.

The 'bosses' as I'll call them. So much build up to the jaghut tyrant, and how underwhelming it all was. I was expecting it to be a real apex but all it did is walk to the city, and within mere moments of entering, it got grabbed by a random tree that just appeared from nowhere and dragged away. What a pointless exercise it all was.

Speaking of that random tree, what about the seemingly pointless scenes where Paran suddenly vanished into some other realm, does bugger all, and gets spat out back to the real world? The one where he protects the tree was especially ludicrous I thought. The Imass or Tiste Andii (forgot which) made a point of protecting this random house as its too young to do its job. And then all within a matter of a few seconds and a rapid fight scene, the tree/house is all of a sudden old enough to do whatever it must. I'm not one for things to be drawn out but that whole scene was so rushed it just lacked any credibility.

Then from the demise of the tyrant, a fearsome demon Lord which hasn't even been mentioned up until this point is released, yet far from doing anything remotely devastating, it gets battered and is dead as quickly as it appeared.

There are a few more minor gripes as well, mainly with characters (tattersall and sorry post posession I thougght were particularly bland and felt rushed, lacking any sort of human character) but I won't go in to those.

For me the writer seemed to have a cluster of ideas and tried to ram them all in to the detriment of the book as a whole, and as a consequence I felt the book built up to what I was expecting would be (and should have been) an absolutely breathtaking climax, which sadly never came and the whole thing just fizzled out without a bang.

Are these things a recurring theme throughout the series? Do random things just come and go with little to no background or explanation? Do the big bits continue to underwhelm and fizzle out? Do these random scenes shooting between realms for seemingly no reason continue to appear?

Don't get me wrong, I really enjoyed a lot of this book. I loved the ambition, the tale told from each side of the conflict, no righteous or evil factions but just people doing what they do, the amount of characters and the way their paths twisted away and merged together, their interests conflicting and sharing with others both in and outside their own factions, I like the way it doesn't give away what's going to happen cheaply, and I love the fact that after reading the first book I still don't really know for certain where the series is going, like almost every other series will by now have let on. A coup is obvious but there are hints at other destinations.

Overall I'd say a promising book with a massive potential which it failed to realise and was ultimately a disappointment. I read that the series gets better and better as it gets on and I truly hope it does as the promise in the first book is immense, but I like a sense of credibility and rationality which seems to go amiss at times with parts I felt were rushed and thrown together without being thought through properly. I don't want to spend time and money finding out the hard way that this is the way these books are.

This post has been edited by Archibald: 17 March 2015 - 08:37 PM

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#13 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 17 March 2015 - 08:46 PM

If you continue, books 2 and 3 in particular have major climaxes (rather than anti-climaxes) in the way you seem to want. What you will discover if you continue is that not much in book 1 is "random"; it's not a theme in the literary sense, but it is a recurring stylistic choice that the "what" may be confusing as you read, and the "why" and "how" you won't get till later, but it does reliably come. And frankly, as you progress the "what" seems less and less random; book 1 is by far the most jarring in that respect.
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#14 User is offline   Andorion 

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Posted 18 March 2015 - 01:55 AM

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First, right from the off, soul shifting. Nothing wrong with the idea, but shifting into an inanimate object like a puppet or a bag of rotten body parts? Seems completely irrational to me and essentially makes every sorcerer an immortal. It wouldn't be so bad but it's done with no substance to support it, no theory, nothing. Could have been far better thought out, but I give the writer his licence, it's his world.


Not really. As we saw it can be incredibly dangerous and can go spectacularly wrong. Most mages won't try it. ALso the magical theory part is too vast and confusing to be completely given in book 1. Trust me its RAFO.

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The 'bosses' as I'll call them. So much build up to the jaghut tyrant, and how underwhelming it all was. I was expecting it to be a real apex but all it did is walk to the city, and within mere moments of entering, it got grabbed by a random tree that just appeared from nowhere and dragged away. What a pointless exercise it all was.


Sometime bosses may not be bosses. Sometimes there may not be any bosses at all. As for the underwheling part there's sly rationale here which I wont tell you about. Its something you slowly realize as you read on.

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Speaking of that random tree, what about the seemingly pointless scenes where Paran suddenly vanished into some other realm, does bugger all, and gets spat out back to the real world? The one where he protects the tree was especially ludicrous I thought. The Imass or Tiste Andii (forgot which) made a point of protecting this random house as its too young to do its job. And then all within a matter of a few seconds and a rapid fight scene, the tree/house is all of a sudden old enough to do whatever it must. I'm not one for things to be drawn out but that whole scene was so rushed it just lacked any credibility.


The Azath is definitely something you find out more about, especially why it was so important. Also remember, Time moves differently in different worlds.

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Then from the demise of the tyrant, a fearsome demon Lord which hasn't even been mentioned up until this point is released, yet far from doing anything remotely devastating, it gets battered and is dead as quickly as it appeared.


Thats because the demon met somebody way way deadlier than himself.

Quote

There are a few more minor gripes as well, mainly with characters (tattersall and sorry post posession I thougght were particularly bland and felt rushed, lacking any sort of human character) but I won't go in to those.
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Note that after the prologue, post-possession Sorry was the first time we actually see Sorry. Her character development has only just begun.

As worry said above, things improve vastly. Books 2 and 3 have very satisfying huge climaxes. You really should continue reading, especially as you have not complained about not understanding whats going on. That is the most common complaint. The series expands enormously after this.
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#15 User is offline   Archibald 

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Posted 18 March 2015 - 02:03 PM

I bit the bullet and bought the second book anyway, I figured the first is just scratching the surface. I did assume that there was more to come from the Azath and the tyrant especially, its swift and effortless demise was no justice for the way it was talked up for so long. It was just very anti climatic and the demon seemed thrown in almost on a whim purely to make up for it to offer some sort of climax. It did leave me disappointed, we could have at least seen a glimpse of what the tyrant would have caused let loose in a city.

With sorry, my main gripe was just the complete lack of tension or basic human instinct. She'd just come to her senses on a different continent and Crokus had found her just as she was about to kill him, she changes at the flick of a switch and both parties just seem totally ok with it all and took it completely in their stride. You would have thought that after being as good as unconscious for two years and waking up on a hill on a different continent thousands of miles from your home, you'd be a little freaked out, paranoid, and completely irrational. Likewise Crokus, this is someone he knew murdered two people and was about to kill him, you wouldn't just be like "oh ok, you don't seem possessed anymore, jump up behind me on this horse where I can't see you so you can stick a knife in me before I know anything about it if I'm wrong", you'd tie her up or something. There was so much missed potential in it all.

There were just a handful of parts where I was left scratching my head thinking the scene was either completely pointless or it felt rushed, poorly executed and lacking plausibility. On the flip side so many other things were very well done. Maybe as the story, world and lore develop, the inclusion and execution of some of those scenes will make more sense. As mentioned ive already bought book two and come to a decision to give Erikson the benefit of the doubt for now and carry on at least til the end of book three, as by all accounts the next two are said to pick up a lot.

This post has been edited by Archibald: 18 March 2015 - 02:05 PM

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#16 User is offline   Andorion 

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Posted 18 March 2015 - 04:40 PM

Regarding Sorry, remember the wax-witch? That's important. Think on it a bit
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#17 User is offline   Archibald 

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Posted 18 March 2015 - 05:20 PM

View PostAndorion, on 18 March 2015 - 04:40 PM, said:

Regarding Sorry, remember the wax-witch? That's important. Think on it a bit


Yes. I immediately thought she was the underlying possessor, and you've just confirmed it for me :D

This post has been edited by Archibald: 18 March 2015 - 05:25 PM

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#18 User is offline   koehkont 

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Posted 18 March 2015 - 07:08 PM

View PostArchibald, on 18 March 2015 - 05:20 PM, said:

View PostAndorion, on 18 March 2015 - 04:40 PM, said:

Regarding Sorry, remember the wax-witch? That's important. Think on it a bit


Yes. I immediately thought she was the underlying possessor, and you've just confirmed it for me :D


Not only that, but it also explaines why she has a lack of emotion. The wax witch is old and has seen a lot so she can handle everything Sorry did while possessed. She makes some sort of mental shield to protect Apsalar (non-possessed Sorry) from going into a mental breakdown, which was bound to happen for a child that remembers a series of horrible murders she has committed the past few years.
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#19 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 18 March 2015 - 07:36 PM

View PostArchibald, on 18 March 2015 - 02:03 PM, said:

I bit the bullet and bought the second book anyway, I figured the first is just scratching the surface.... As mentioned ive already bought book two and come to a decision to give Erikson the benefit of the doubt for now and carry on at least til the end of book three,


I don't think you'll be sorry. The elements that you enjoyed in GotM are massively magnified in DG and MoI.


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as by all accounts the next two are said to pick up a lot.


SO MUCH AWESOME.


SO MUCH.
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#20 User is offline   Archibald 

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Posted 18 March 2015 - 09:52 PM

View Postkoehkont, on 18 March 2015 - 07:08 PM, said:

View PostArchibald, on 18 March 2015 - 05:20 PM, said:

View PostAndorion, on 18 March 2015 - 04:40 PM, said:

Regarding Sorry, remember the wax-witch? That's important. Think on it a bit


Yes. I immediately thought she was the underlying possessor, and you've just confirmed it for me :D


Not only that, but it also explaines why she has a lack of emotion. The wax witch is old and has seen a lot so she can handle everything Sorry did while possessed. She makes some sort of mental shield to protect Apsalar (non-possessed Sorry) from going into a mental breakdown, which was bound to happen for a child that remembers a series of horrible murders she has committed the past few years.


I'm guessing there's a lot more to come from her which I'm not yet privvy to, possibly giving reason to her placidity but her 'awakening' was a real let down. Mallet claimed that there was another spirit from before Cotillions posession who was blocking memories, rather than emotions.

Even so, that fails to explain Crokus' somewhat trusting and equally placid reaction. At this point I hve to say I just think Erikson got a bit excited and jumped straight into the romance (if that's how it turns out). That said he's obviously not dense and knew he was doing just that. We'll just have to agree to disagree here, at least for now.
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