[Cyphon]

Has Min been cast?

[worry]

Yup, she's being played by Kae Alexander, who was the main Forest Goblin on Game of Thrones season six.

In terms of not reading the books, and assuming the show is decent or better, it's probably a good idea to watch it. There's some good fantasy stuff in the midst of these long long books, and hopefully the show functions like a sensible edit.

[Tsundoku]

worry, on 13 September 2021 - 07:00 AM, said:

and hopefully the show functions like a sensible edit.

We can only hope.

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

That's my hope for it, both for non-book readers and also for those readers like myself who felt the whole thing got too long and had far too much filler around what was really a good story. To me, WoT sensibly edited down could be a truly great thing to watch.

[amphibian]

I'm asking this as a person who read up until Crossroads of Twilight and then just wiki-summaried the rest of the series: Are there gripping moments like the Red Wedding in WoT?

I'm not asking about the battles because there's absolutely those, but battles are super expensive to create + film in live action. I'm talking about the interpersonal storylines that really just explode into a moment that everyone talks about - as in the Red Wedding. It doesn't have to be mass murder, but some kind of suuuper dramatic moment that really catches an audience.

Without that element, I see a difficult path for this show.

[worry]

The only one I can think of comes early on in the series.

Spoiler

Mat getting hanged from a tree. And that's not exactly with finality.

This story absolutely does not have the 'anyone could be next' moments that GoT had. And for that and several other reasons, I have near zero faith in this show making it to the finish line even if it's 'good' unless there's a whole lot of thrilling original material.

There is the infrastructure there to create both long-term and short-term villain arcs (including Big Bad of the season, Buffy-style), but the juiciest drama occurs in-house among the Forsaken so even that's a balancing act. For the most part, this is a story where the cast continues to expand while losing very few existing characters to make room for the new. Everything (and nearly everyone) are building towards a Final Battle. I don't know how it will avoid budget bloat.

[QuickTidal]

worry, on 13 September 2021 - 05:32 PM, said:

This story absolutely does not have the 'anyone could be next' moments that GoT had.

Worse, many of the leads have really OBVIOUS plot armour, so the idea that anyone is under much threat is nil.

worry, on 13 September 2021 - 05:32 PM, said:

And for that and several other reasons, I have near zero faith in this show making it to the finish line even if it's 'good' unless there's a whole lot of thrilling original material.

Agreed. No way this show stays on long enough to do the whole series. I'm going to ballpark it at 4 seasons and cancelled.

[amphibian]

The Asmodean question is a good moment, but I think even that doesn't rise to a "we GOTTA see what happens" level unless they give the Forsaken a ton of screen time very early.

The tree thing, I dunno - people weren't flipping out when a certain character in GoT faced an entire army by themselves. They were flipping out for the betrayals and the prophecies being monkey's paw warped.

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

I would agree, there's nothing comparable to GoT and everybody has impenetrable plot armour (until right at the end). The memorable deaths and what have you for me are all a part of the Final Battle and I suspect everyone is correct that there's no way the series will stick it long enough to get there.

I would definitely be up for seeing the Forsaken being given more to do - they are genuinely sinister at times but feel underused in quite a few of the books even when they have page time. Upping their involvement and nastiness could be fun!

This post has been edited by TheRetiredBridgeburner: 13 September 2021 - 07:51 PM

[Malankazooie]

Early on, Mat's struggles with the effect of the dagger will be a test to see how they handle emotional resonance. I want to see how the dreams are realized also. Also, Lan and Nynaeve's relationship early on. It will be another good test for the show in how well they pull that off.

[Werthead]

Tsundoku, on 12 September 2021 - 12:01 PM, said:

Man, those had better be actual hour long episodes, not that 40+ min ripoff stuff.

The shortest episode is 45 minutes, the longest is around 65 minutes.

Quote

Are there gripping moments like the Red Wedding in WoT?

Several, I'd say.

Spoiler

The aftermath of Dumai's Wells, the Cleaning, Rand confronting Semirhage, Lan rallying the Borderlands, Egwene undermining the White Tower from within, and a few others.

Quote

I would agree, there's nothing comparable to GoT and everybody has impenetrable plot armour

I think there is scope for more character deaths. In the books there are several major supporting characters who almost die, survive, and then do absolutely nothing, so you might as well leave them dead.

Spoiler

I suspect Moiraine will come back, since they gave Rosamund Pike a production credit and got her production company involved as a way of keeping her invested after she exits the show. But characters like Dobraine, Elyas, Juilin Sander etc strike me as characters they can develop more and then off them for greater impact (though Dobraine is somewhat marginal). You can't really kill off any major first or second-tier characters though, because their arcs are so heavily invested in what they do after the series ends. And I suspect they'll keep Mat, Tuon and the Seanchan characters going because if the show is a big hit, they can do RJ's planned sequel series where Mat and Tuon reunify the Seanchan continent.

[D'rek]

TheRetiredBridgeburner, on 13 September 2021 - 07:51 PM, said:

I would agree, there's nothing comparable to GoT and everybody has impenetrable plot armour (until right at the end). The memorable deaths and what have you for me are all a part of the Final Battle and I suspect everyone is correct that there's no way the series will stick it long enough to get there.

I would definitely be up for seeing the Forsaken being given more to do - they are genuinely sinister at times but feel underused in quite a few of the books even when they have page time. Upping their involvement and nastiness could be fun!

If they want big "everyone is shocked and talking about it" moments the Forsaken can definitely deliver it. IIRC there's a few times in the books where the main characters go to some new place and meet the local king/queen or whatever, but the reader immediately recognizes the ruler (or their vizier or whatever) is a Forsaken. Could definitely really play that aspect up in the show, with actors being more immediately recognizable than text descriptions. Have some scenes at the start of episodes of all the Forsaken hanging out together, and do cliffhanger episode endings right when the main characters unknowingly meet them, etc.

[amphibian]

Werthead, on 13 September 2021 - 08:07 PM, said:

Quote

Are there gripping moments like the Red Wedding in WoT?

Several, I'd say.

Spoiler

The aftermath of Dumai's Wells, the Cleaning, Rand confronting Semirhage, Lan rallying the Borderlands, Egwene undermining the White Tower from within, and a few others.

This isn't enough in the earlier going. I know you're a big fan of the show and series, but I'm seeing a big big thud if they stick to the books on these things.

[Slow Ben]

Tsundoku, on 13 September 2021 - 07:02 AM, said:

worry, on 13 September 2021 - 07:00 AM, said:

and hopefully the show functions like a sensible edit.

We can only hope.

So say we all.

[Abyss]

amphibian, on 13 September 2021 - 08:18 PM, said:

Werthead, on 13 September 2021 - 08:07 PM, said:

Quote

Are there gripping moments like the Red Wedding in WoT?

Several, I'd say.

Spoiler

The aftermath of Dumai's Wells, the Cleaning, Rand confronting Semirhage, Lan rallying the Borderlands, Egwene undermining the White Tower from within, and a few others.

This isn't enough in the earlier going. I know you're a big fan of the show and series, but I'm seeing a big big thud if they stick to the books on these things.

On average, the first six books have 1-2 MAJOR events per book. Usually a huge climax, sometimes a big event around haldway and then a huge climax. It's a predictable and even enjoyable pattern that gets utterly blown in book 7 and continues to be derailed until Sanderson steps in in book 12. Its not that books 7-11 do not have major events, it's just that they tended to be less dramatic, so vague as to lose impact, or happen halfway through a book that would then end in an unsatisfying 'to be continued'. After blast after blast in books 1-6, it kind of sucked to wait years and get so much of what felt like filler and so very little payoff.

I am told that without the break of years between books, this feeling is less because even if the end of book is weak, you can jump straight into the next and get your fix soon enough. It makes sense, i suppose ymmv. Frustration and all, i am still fond of the series.

[amphibian]

Hang on, I am talking a completely different thing than you are, Abyss.

Opening of the series is a Troll fight. Then some adventuring. Then a climatic battle.

What I'm talking about is the interpersonal moments that seize the attention without being a battle. A good example early on would be the Ned Stark resignation as hand, the threat to Danyerys, who's a Baratheon, what people will do to keep that secret, and the execution of Ned Stark. People were going bananas for this as Season 1 went on and it was almost all talking.

This Wheel show can't pin everything on a giant battle at the end of the season. There has to be smaller, cheaper, gripping dramatic moments beyond "oh no, we're on the run and someone got lost" or "here's the Aes Sedai", "this one could be the chosen one" etc.

This post has been edited by amphibian: 14 September 2021 - 03:12 PM

[Abyss]

amphibian, on 14 September 2021 - 03:09 PM, said:

Hang on, I am talking a completely different thing than you are, Abyss.

Opening of the series is a Troll fight. Then some adventuring. Then a climatic battle.

What I'm talking about is the interpersonal moments that seize the attention without being a battle. A good example early on would be the Ned Stark resignation as hand, the threat to Danyerys, who's a Baratheon, what people will do to keep that secret, and the execution of Ned Stark. People were going bananas for this as Season 1 went on and it was almost all talking.

This Wheel show can't pin everything on a giant battle at the end of the season. There has to be smaller, cheaper, gripping dramatic moments beyond "oh no, we're on the run and someone got lost" or "here's the Aes Sedai", "this one could be the chosen one" etc.

Oh ok, in that case we have the unrequited romantic tension between Rand and Egwene. You're good to go.

[worry]

In other words, we're gonna get a loooooooooooooot of cross country walking scenes where Rand, Mat, and Perrin talk about what they used to eat for Second Breakfast.

[Cyphon]

And how they don't understand girls and the other two do...

[ContrarianMalazanReader]

Based on the trailer I am reminded of that silly fantasy series The Outpost, but with a bigger budget.