[Malaclypse]

We still do all of those things and worse - hey you sir are an innocent and simple-minded as well. How hey hey you respond to this notice is important for hey hey you but not for me

This post has been edited by Malaclypse: 10 October 2014 - 06:40 PM

[Malaclypse]

so clearly somebody is messing with me, inserting 'hey's everywhere - nicely done I guess, show yourself so we may converse about this further

[Malaclypse]

I will find out eventually so hey you might as well be brave and take credit now - there won't be a second chance to avoid looking like a petty coward

[BellaGrace]

HiddenOne, on 10 October 2014 - 04:47 PM, said:

On topic, I don't find MT "preachy", which has a negative connotation. It does give some in depth views of the author's take on these weighty subject, but I didn't feel the Finger of Accusation pointed my way. If I was in the mood for sheer action while reading, it could have been ponderous, no doubt, but overall it delivers the quality we have come to expect.

As others have said, the re-read proves to be of great benefit.

Maybe "preachy" wasn't the right word to use. I just felt like I was getting hammered with Erikson's personal beliefs in this book, and I didn't feel that way in the others. Like someone else pointed out in this thread, there was a lot more characters in MT who were much more philosophical. Either way - I didn't hate the book or anything...it's just my least favorite out of the five I have read so far.

PS - I do see the value in a re-read as I think a lot of things will make more sense to me and I'll know what characters to pay better attention to (like Trull who I thought was really boring in the last book, but I am sure I will see him in a totally new light now knowing what he's been through).

[LinearPhilosopher]

Malaclypse, on 09 October 2014 - 08:52 PM, said:

It was reading MT that inspired me to find this place because this book, to me, was a baldly obvious condemnation of the American Way - I was like, this motherfucker has some balls and I wanted to talk about it with other people. Steve is a humanist and you need to understand that term and how it meshes with his worldview - i.e., he's convinced that we're fucked as a species and he's almost certainly right about that. It's the most frustrating thing...

that's not the traditinal definition of a humanist? I think that's what you call cynicism.

Anyways to respond to your earlier comments

Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel said:

The History of the World is not the theatre of happiness. Periods of happiness are blank pages in it, for they are periods of harmony

This post has been edited by BalrogLord: 11 October 2014 - 03:47 AM

[worry]

He can be more than one thing.

[K'Chain Bull'shite]

BalrogLord, on 11 October 2014 - 03:44 AM, said:

Malaclypse, on 09 October 2014 - 08:52 PM, said:

It was reading MT that inspired me to find this place because this book, to me, was a baldly obvious condemnation of the American Way - I was like, this motherfucker has some balls and I wanted to talk about it with other people. Steve is a humanist and you need to understand that term and how it meshes with his worldview - i.e., he's convinced that we're fucked as a species and he's almost certainly right about that. It's the most frustrating thing...

that's not the traditinal definition of a humanist? I think that's what you call cynicism.


Anyways to respond to your earlier comments

Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel said:

The History of the World is not the theatre of happiness. Periods of happiness are blank pages in it, for they are periods of harmony

Holding the opinion that our species has ultimately turned out to be self-defeating in the grand scheme of things is not incompatible with humanism, you just have to shrug and get on with it, enjoy what we do manage to accomplish, I guess. He's the humanist. I'm not a humanist myself - my fondest wish is a near-extinction event so we can reset the clock and maybe figure it out.

ETA: The Great Filter - it's a logical necessity. Something is stopping interstellar civilization from happening and in our case it's our primitive, counter-productive behaviour that's holding us back. The entire energy of our existence, all of us, should be bent towards getting off this rock. Nothing else is remotely important by comparison. And that's fucking obvious to anybody with a fully functional adult human brain but we distract ourselves with utter foolishness rather than attack the the problem. This contradiction is where madness comes from for a lot of people. We know what we need to do but we are prevented from doing it because we pretend other things are more important somehow. The sane one in a crazy world and all that, it's a fucking nightmare. It can't really be happening right? Our lives are played out in the mind a of a god and none of this is real? Sure, that's easier to deal with so let's just embrace madness as policy and fuck each other as vigorously as we can before the end comes. This is our strategy. FFS

This post has been edited by K'Chain Bull'shite: 11 October 2014 - 09:04 AM

[Whisperzzzzzzz]

K, on 11 October 2014 - 08:13 AM, said:

BalrogLord, on 11 October 2014 - 03:44 AM, said:

Malaclypse, on 09 October 2014 - 08:52 PM, said:

It was reading MT that inspired me to find this place because this book, to me, was a baldly obvious condemnation of the American Way - I was like, this motherfucker has some balls and I wanted to talk about it with other people. Steve is a humanist and you need to understand that term and how it meshes with his worldview - i.e., he's convinced that we're fucked as a species and he's almost certainly right about that. It's the most frustrating thing...

that's not the traditinal definition of a humanist? I think that's what you call cynicism.


Anyways to respond to your earlier comments

Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel said:

The History of the World is not the theatre of happiness. Periods of happiness are blank pages in it, for they are periods of harmony

Holding the opinion that our species has ultimately turned out to be self-defeating in the grand scheme of things is not incompatible with humanism, you just have to shrug and get on with it, enjoy what we do manage to accomplish, I guess. He's the humanist. I'm not a humanist myself - my fondest wish is a near-extinction event so we can reset the clock and maybe figure it out.

ETA: The Great Filter - it's a logical necessity. Something is stopping interstellar civilization from happening and in our case it's our primitive, counter-productive behaviour that's holding us back. The entire energy of our existence, all of us, should be bent towards getting off this rock. Nothing else is remotely important by comparison. And that's fucking obvious to anybody with a fully functional adult human brain but we distract ourselves with utter foolishness rather than attack the the problem. This contradiction is where madness comes from for a lot of people. We know what we need to do but we are prevented from doing it because we pretend other things are more important somehow. The sane one in a crazy world and all that, it's a fucking nightmare. It can't really be happening right? Our lives are played out in the mind a of a god and none of this is real? Sure, that's easier to deal with so let's just embrace madness as policy and fuck each other as vigorously as we can before the end comes. This is our strategy. FFS

While I don't agree that our Earthcentrism is The Great Filter, I do agree with the rest of that second paragraph (I'm actually working on a website based around exoplanets that I hope people will find inspiring and informative).

However, I believe that wishing for a near-extinction event is an untenable position to take. I do not think we would recover nearly as well as you would hope. As it currently stands, most of the easily accessible resources (minerals, metals, etc.) that are used in electronics have been stripped and the ones currently in use are not easily recyclable. And the specialized knowledge to operate most of our essential fabrication, utilities, and other machines would probably be either lost or extremely fragmented. Of course, this depends on what the NEE was.

(Also, you would probably be dead. There's no reason why you would survive the event. You're not special, unfortunately.)

I could write more, but I've finished on the loo.

[K'Chain Bull'shite]

Firstly, I'm not assuming I would survive the NEE (the Knights who say NEE!) - I am utterly unimportant in all of this. In fact, I would prefer to die knowing that what was killing me is also killing a fuckton of other people and so our species might have a chance.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'our Earthcentrism is the Great Filter' - I don't know exactly what you mean by your comment on this but for me it's just this : The universe is old - there are many many stars far older than ours with planets inside the biozone but when we looked, we found nobody and even a civilisation like ours, deeply deeply flawed as it is, would be visible to us with our current technology. They just aren't there OR have decided to hide from us, which should be fucking worrying. If they are there and actively mask their presence from us, that's fucking scary man, they might be deciding whether or not to exterminate us, and I can see that argument, I feel like if I was put to the question on this subject, I would ultimately admit that our species is not to be trusted. If I was some alien with the power to eliminate the human plague I would probably do it. We have turned out to be such unmitigated cunts it's not even a question.

[Whisperzzzzzzz]

K, on 11 October 2014 - 02:03 PM, said:

I'm not sure what you mean by 'our Earthcentrism is the Great Filter'

You said: "Something is stopping interstellar civilization from happening and in our case it's our primitive, counter-productice behaviour that's holding us back." I interpreted that as our inward focus on surface matters, hence Earthcentrism. Could just as easily be anthropocentrism though.

Quote

If I was some alien with the power to eliminate the human plague I would probably do it. We have turned out to be such unmitigated cunts it's not even a question.

I often see people arguing this, but it's such a groundless claim because we don't have anything against which we can compare humanity's behavior.¹ For all we know, all intelligent species are deceitful, malicious, and greedy at some point in their evolution. It's only according to our current (as they're always changing) cultural values and morals that such behavior is viewed as detrimental to progress. And I'm not saying that it isn't, as I generally think it is. What I'm saying is that maybe these behaviors are not as overarchingly reprehensible as we believe.

¹ However, we can look at other species we consider self-aware and/or intelligent. Dolphins rape each other and kill young animals. Crows are greedy little burglars. I know this is cherrypicking and anthropomorphizing, but that's no different than saying that aliens won't like us because we're selfish, shortsighted, and mean. We don't like ourselves for those reasons, but that doesn't mean anyone else will feel the same.

(Sorry for the grammatical numbering issues. Phones are hard.)

This post has been edited by Whisperzzzzzzz: 11 October 2014 - 03:14 PM

[K'Chain Bull'shite]

Oh duuude, this is what I'm looking for! Thank you so much for your input!

I agree completely re: the moral ambiguity of it all - my conception of morality now is all about what helps us get off this planet and anything that interferes with that is morally wrong in my view - primitive I admit but it is what it is. Until some discernible movement to get us off this rock materializes, I'm all about pointing out the failures of what has come before. Somebody has to do it and it suits me.

Ultimately, it's this - I value the survival of our species higher than my personal survival. This is fundamental. We need to get off this rock even if I don't get to go.

This post has been edited by K'Chain Bull'shite: 11 October 2014 - 04:00 PM

[Whisperzzzzzzz]

K, on 11 October 2014 - 03:39 PM, said:

Ultimately, it's this - I value the survival of our species higher than my personal survival. This is fundamental. We need to get off this rock even if I don't get to go.

I completely agree (though I would love to go!).

[Gorefest]

Malaclypse, on 10 October 2014 - 06:31 PM, said:

We still do all of those things and worse - hey you sir are an innocent and simple-minded as well.

Glad to see you can be mature about it. Being called simple-minded for disagreeing with your cynicism, I'll take that as a moral victory. Not hard to see why you couldn't convince SE though, if that is your level of argumentation.

[Malaclypse]

hey Gorefest, watch a documentary about what's going on in Afghanistan right now, or the Congo! For me, it was a first to find out something I'd rather not know, like I feel like I would be better off not knowing this, I'd be happier and less angry maybe, but in the Congo, they were doing this thing, inserting their guns into the vaginas of captured women, rupturing the barrier between the places that shit and piss come from and then let them go to spread terror - these horribly abused creatures with no control over their bladder or bowels, just leaking everywhere and this was a form of psychological warfare. I like to think of myself as a pretty tough individual, I've been through some shit, I can cope with quite a lot but this fucking slays me man, I want to forget I know this and I want to execute every motherfucker who ever thought about doing this and I just can't cope because there's nothing I can do about it so I'd prefer not to know about it.

We still do all that shit Gorefest, it's just happening outside your field of vision

[Gorefest]

I think you should reread my post. I never said things were great at the moment, and I never disputed that people can still do horrible things to each other. But the mere fact that you are in a position to be disgusted by this and view this as a malign blotch on our civilisation in itself shows that we have moved on, as centuries ago we would either be ignorant of these events or happily complicit in it.

[Randomander]

I think Steven Erikson was definitely a bit more indulgent in his writing with MT, in that he saw this book as an opportunity to delve deeper into the realm of philosophy and moral ambiguity. It reminded me a lot of The Prince of Nothing series by R. Scott Bakker in it's long winded introspective internal monologues and the character's aptitude for dissecting the motives, justifications, and driving factors of a people at large - an almost inhuman ability to look beyond their individual plight (talking about Udinaas specifically there). That being said, it was still a stimulating read. Sometimes it's good to challenge your brain to follow another person's mental track, regardless of how verbose it may seem. It hones the mind, and gives us an even greater perspective into the mind of the man writing these books we all love to read.

[Andorion]

Randomander, on 13 October 2014 - 07:49 PM, said:

I think Steven Erikson was definitely a bit more indulgent in his writing with MT, in that he saw this book as an opportunity to delve deeper into the realm of philosophy and moral ambiguity. It reminded me a lot of The Prince of Nothing series by R. Scott Bakker in it's long winded introspective internal monologues and the character's aptitude for dissecting the motives, justifications, and driving factors of a people at large - an almost inhuman ability to look beyond their individual plight (talking about Udinaas specifically there). That being said, it was still a stimulating read. Sometimes it's good to challenge your brain to follow another person's mental track, regardless of how verbose it may seem. It hones the mind, and gives us an even greater perspective into the mind of the man writing these books we all love to read.

Recently my friend and I were having a discussion about authors going beyond traditional bounds to uplift their genres, and SE was the example that came to mind who has done it for fantasy. The Malazan books are extremely rich, not in terms of worldbuilding alone, but because SE has used a number of philosophical and academic concepts in structuring the books. This is what makes the Malazan books better than others and elevates them above the hack-and-slash fantasy. There's a whole thread that runs through DG to RG about history and memory. In MT it was about the nature of greed. Some may find it 'preachy' other may find it hard to get into the first time - I did, but a very important point is that SE does not just invent the practices he is philosophising about. These have real-world counterparts, these are real-world problems. He weaves them into his story and makes them a necessary and plausible part of theplot. I mean we all read about Empires in fantasy, but how exactly do empires become empires? In Malazan SE gives us a comparison between the Letherii and the Malazan Empires. The Letherii follow a military-economic policy which is reminiscent of the modern capitalist state while the Malazan follow a military-legal policy which is more like the Roman Empire.

[Randomander]

Andorion, on 14 October 2014 - 02:12 AM, said:

Recently my friend and I were having a discussion about authors going beyond traditional bounds to uplift their genres, and SE was the example that came to mind who has done it for fantasy. The Malazan books are extremely rich, not in terms of worldbuilding alone, but because SE has used a number of philosophical and academic concepts in structuring the books. This is what makes the Malazan books better than others and elevates them above the hack-and-slash fantasy. There's a whole thread that runs through DG to RG about history and memory. In MT it was about the nature of greed. Some may find it 'preachy' other may find it hard to get into the first time - I did, but a very important point is that SE does not just invent the practices he is philosophising about. These have real-world counterparts, these are real-world problems. He weaves them into his story and makes them a necessary and plausible part of theplot. I mean we all read about Empires in fantasy, but how exactly do empires become empires? In Malazan SE gives us a comparison between the Letherii and the Malazan Empires. The Letherii follow a military-economic policy which is reminiscent of the modern capitalist state while the Malazan follow a military-legal policy which is more like the Roman Empire.

I think, my friend, you are touching on some deep truths about the heart and soul of great literature; an author's ability to take the complexities of life and paint a picture that reflects these complexities in its own unique, yet subtly familiar way. It's why i enjoy reading so much, and why lately I've been drawn to books with more introspective protagonists (such as MbotF). Life is about understanding, understanding yourself, understanding the world around you, and to me theres no better way to pursue knowledge, besides personal experience, than to read as much as possible from as many different people as possible. Even in the most fantastical world, devoid of humans and ripe with magic, an author can only write their characters to high or low ends of the emotional spectrum we all know and can relate to, because they are after all only human themselves.

To keep from sounding too much like an existentialist windbag however, I also enjoy the series for its badass magic battles

Spoiler

and occasional face biting

(rafo for that last part ...)

This post has been edited by D'rek: 14 October 2014 - 05:46 PM
Reason for edit: added spoiler tags

[Andorion]

Quote

To keep from sounding too much like an existentialist windbag however, I also enjoy the series for its badass magic battles

Spoiler

and occasional face biting

(rafo for that last part ...)

Oh I know, I know,

Spoiler

face-biting

made my day

This post has been edited by D'rek: 14 October 2014 - 05:47 PM

[Calistan]

Glad I´m not the only one who struggled to the first 200 pages or so. After the epic HoC I wasn´t ready for an entirely (almost) new story so I put it down for a while and returned with new strength a few weeks after and thought it was the funniest book yet (Love you Tehol and Bugg). I also love SE´s a-little-bit-of preachiness since I´m hinting to myself that I´m learning a lot more about the world we live in.