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Purpose of Hounds of Darkness

#1 User is offline   K'chain Paladin 

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Posted 28 September 2014 - 02:45 AM

I'm about over halfway into the book and I don't get why Paran is going to all the trouble of releasing the Deragoth to kill Dejim Nebrahl. Why not just ask Cotillion and Shadowtrone to sic their hounds on them? Seeing as Karsa Orlong was able to kill two of them in HoC, there should be no reason why the Hounds of Shadow couldn't get the job done. I'm thinking some plot thread will appear later that requires the Deragoth presence, but I can't see it yet.
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#2 User is offline   jonny_anonymous 

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Posted 28 September 2014 - 01:53 PM

Well it's not like Shadowthrone takes requests.
“You make worlds, worlds inside your head and worlds outside,
but only the one inside counts for anything.
It’s where you find peace,
acceptance.
Worth.”
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#3 User is offline   Andorion 

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Posted 28 September 2014 - 03:24 PM

View PostK, on 28 September 2014 - 02:45 AM, said:

I'm about over halfway into the book and I don't get why Paran is going to all the trouble of releasing the Deragoth to kill Dejim Nebrahl. Why not just ask Cotillion and Shadowtrone to sic their hounds on them? Seeing as Karsa Orlong was able to kill two of them in HoC, there should be no reason why the Hounds of Shadow couldn't get the job done. I'm thinking some plot thread will appear later that requires the Deragoth presence, but I can't see it yet.


Well it could be because Paran hates being manipulated by Gods and prefers to do the work himself. Also Deragoth are way more effective than HOunds of Shadow. Also you do not just borrow Shadowthrone's puppies
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#4 User is offline   K'chain Paladin 

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 05:06 AM

The problem with these books being so big is that I often have no clue what the more obscure characters' motivations are, but surely there is no benefit for Shadowthrone to allow Dejim Nebrahl to continue existing? Seeing as the Nameless Ones are his enemy?

View PostAndorion, on 28 September 2014 - 03:24 PM, said:

View PostK, on 28 September 2014 - 02:45 AM, said:

I'm about over halfway into the book and I don't get why Paran is going to all the trouble of releasing the Deragoth to kill Dejim Nebrahl. Why not just ask Cotillion and Shadowtrone to sic their hounds on them? Seeing as Karsa Orlong was able to kill two of them in HoC, there should be no reason why the Hounds of Shadow couldn't get the job done. I'm thinking some plot thread will appear later that requires the Deragoth presence, but I can't see it yet.


Well it could be because Paran hates being manipulated by Gods and prefers to do the work himself. Also Deragoth are way more effective than HOunds of Shadow. Also you do not just borrow Shadowthrone's puppies

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#5 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 07:22 PM

The Hounds of Shadow are not tools to be used.
They came with white hands and left with red hands.
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#6 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 09:17 PM

My best rationale is

SPOILERS SPOILERS
READ THIS ONLY AFTER YOU'VE FINISHED THE BOOK
SPOILERS



SPOILERS



Spoiler

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#7 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 09:25 PM

Abyss KP is only halfway through the book.
They came with white hands and left with red hands.
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#8 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 10:07 PM

View Postworry, on 30 September 2014 - 09:25 PM, said:

Abyss KP is only halfway through the book.



Tnx for the reminder, blocks added.
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#9 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 10:11 PM

Hooray!
They came with white hands and left with red hands.
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#10 User is offline   K'chain Paladin 

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 06:21 PM

But apparently the Deragoth are? Or are least capable of being manipulated?

View Postworry, on 30 September 2014 - 07:22 PM, said:

The Hounds of Shadow are not tools to be used.


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#11 User is offline   K'chain Paladin 

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 06:27 PM

Pshaw, I have no fear of spoilers, I read it anyway. Though by the time of writing this, I had gotten to the part with Paran
Spoiler
.
But anyways, if that's the case, then I want to know how Paran know, and why exactly wouldn't Shadowthrone and Cotillion not want to take down Poliel anyway since she's on (assumedly) the Crippled God's side?

View PostAbyss, on 30 September 2014 - 09:17 PM, said:

My best rationale is

SPOILERS SPOILERS
READ THIS ONLY AFTER YOU'VE FINISHED THE BOOK
SPOILERS



SPOILERS



Spoiler


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#12 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 08:16 PM

View PostK, on 01 October 2014 - 06:21 PM, said:

But apparently the Deragoth are? Or are least capable of being manipulated?


Eh. Paran gets away with what he can, but I wouldn't call the Deragoth pushovers.

With your last question, you're putting the cart before the horse. RAFO should be your mantra.
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#13 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 08:57 PM

View PostK, on 01 October 2014 - 06:21 PM, said:

View Postworry, on 30 September 2014 - 07:22 PM, said:

The Hounds of Shadow are not tools to be used.



But apparently the Deragoth are? Or are least capable of being manipulated?


Well you saw what Paran did... he put bait out there and the Deragoth gave chase and ran over or ate anyone in their way.
So it CAN be done. But it was hardly easy... negotiate with Shadowthrone, hope the Deargoth don't eat the Host, get everyone the fuck out when they show up, weaken Poliel so she's tempting prey for them, etc etc


View PostK, on 01 October 2014 - 06:27 PM, said:

Pshaw, I have no fear of spoilers, I read it anyway. Though by the time of writing this, I had gotten to the part with Paran
Spoiler
.


No need to spoiler block anything from TB in the book subforum, esp not in your own thread. I just did that to avoid spoiling you, which wasn't a thing as it turns out.

Quote

But anyways, if that's the case, then I want to know how Paran know, and why exactly wouldn't Shadowthrone and Cotillion not want to take down Poliel anyway since she's on (assumedly) the Crippled God's side?




Paran didn't know, not expressly... it's clear when he arrives at Ehrlitan that he doesn't know what's going on, just that he 'felt' he had to be there. Once he was there, he started taking steps to deal with the problem.

As for St/Cots, as mentioned, them acting directly against her might have left them vulnerable to someone else. Easier by far to let Paran deal with her and absorb any risk.

As of TB, we do not see gods acting directly against other gods. There are threats and plots... aspected mortals clashing ...even ascendants and mortals challenging gods, but at no point in the books so far has one god walked up to another and said 'It's on. BRING IT!'. Part of the reason for this, as i understand it as of TB, is simply that to do that is to invite any other god allied to your opponent, or who has any reason at all to take a shot at you, to become involved.


So picture it... and keep in mind i'm just making shit up here.... instead of Paran's entire thing, Shadowthrone confronts Poliel directly. Steps into the palace and calls her a pox-ridden multi-jointed ho-bag or something. She attacks, he attacks, all kinds of Shadowy and diseasy stuff flies around. Sensing her sister is in trouble, Soliel steps in (yes yes, i know she helps Paran in the book, just go with it....). Now Cotillion has to jump in to keep Soliel off ST who's fully engaged against Poliel.
The Crippled God, who's been watching this whole time cackling evilly, opens a gate and sends in Kallor to stab everyone a lot. Oponn, sensing the convergence, jumps in to take out Cotillion since he has that sword from GotM that makes them nervous. Sensing Oponn manifesting, Rake gates in because fuck Oponn. ST, still fighting Poliel, doesn't know why Rake is there, but calls in his Hounds to keep Rake occupied. Rake is engaged by the Hounds, and Oponn has him slip on a banana peel and accidentally stab Cotillion, who gets sucked into Dragnipur. This pisses off ST hugely who takes out Poliel as well as Soliel, a former ally. The Queen of Dreams watches all this and decides that her alliance with ST is over because jeez, the guy's got a temper. Then Chuck Norris shows up, roundhouse kicks everyone and goes for a beer.

...point being, while silly, this is sort of the reason why gods don't fight each other directly if they can avoid it. And hate bananas.
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#14 User is offline   Gorefest 

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Posted 02 October 2014 - 03:12 PM

Now there's a book I'd like to read.

But yeah, the main thing is that the alliances you think you know about and understand may not be the be all and end all, and RAFO is the only way forward at this point.
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#15 User is offline   K'chain Paladin 

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Posted 04 October 2014 - 03:18 AM

Gah, like I said before, motivations need to be clear here, and the nature of the alliances as well.
Before anybody asks why I am still reading this books six novels in, its because my enjoyment of the characters and the world building outweigh my dislike of not being able to know everything.

View PostGorefest, on 02 October 2014 - 03:12 PM, said:

Now there's a book I'd like to read.

But yeah, the main thing is that the alliances you think you know about and understand may not be the be all and end all, and RAFO is the only way forward at this point.

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#16 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 04 October 2014 - 05:53 AM

View PostK, on 04 October 2014 - 03:18 AM, said:

Gah, like I said before, motivations need to be clear here, and the nature of the alliances as well.
...


why?
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#17 User is offline   K'chain Paladin 

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Posted 04 October 2014 - 06:40 PM

If I don't know how things affect each other, then I have no reason to care about them. I mean, Poliel is pretty much introduced only two hundred pages before she's killed off and I have no idea what her ultimate endgame was, so I neither care that she died, nor that Paran survived, (since I pretty much hate him anyway).

View PostAbyss, on 04 October 2014 - 05:53 AM, said:

View PostK, on 04 October 2014 - 03:18 AM, said:

Gah, like I said before, motivations need to be clear here, and the nature of the alliances as well.
...


why?

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#18 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 04 October 2014 - 07:36 PM

View PostK, on 04 October 2014 - 06:40 PM, said:

If I don't know how things affect each other, then I have no reason to care about them. I mean, Poliel is pretty much introduced only two hundred pages before she's killed off and I have no idea what her ultimate endgame was, so I neither care that she died, nor that Paran survived, (since I pretty much hate him anyway).

View PostAbyss, on 04 October 2014 - 05:53 AM, said:

View PostK, on 04 October 2014 - 03:18 AM, said:

Gah, like I said before, motivations need to be clear here, and the nature of the alliances as well.
...


why?



So you want the author to explain everything to you?
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#19 User is offline   Gorefest 

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Posted 05 October 2014 - 08:07 AM

View PostK, on 04 October 2014 - 03:18 AM, said:

Gah, like I said before, motivations need to be clear here, and the nature of the alliances as well.
Before anybody asks why I am still reading this books six novels in, its because my enjoyment of the characters and the world building outweigh my dislike of not being able to know everything.


Well, if you want to know everything, just go into the general forum area and ask your question again. Spoilers aplenty to be found here if you really want them. Kind of defeats the purpose of reading a series though, in my humble opinion. It's like saying 5 minutes into a film "Oh, by the way, Kaiser Soze is the guy with the limp and he is making up the whole story using items from your office." Some reveals do take a long time, but that is a large part of the charm of this series and the invested time trade-off for many readers. You do get numerous revelations within the span of single books as well, but as the nature of alliances and choices that people (and gods, and other entities) make is integral to the core plot of the MBotF, those revelations intrinsically need to be spun out more for full effect.
Yesterday, upon the stair, I saw a man who wasn't there. He wasn't there again today. Oh, how I wish he'd go away.
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#20 User is offline   K'chain Paladin 

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Posted 05 October 2014 - 05:24 PM

If I can't understand the motivations of characters then yes, it needs to be explained better. Obviously there are twists and turns in writing a plot that need to be covered up so they are more impactful (ex. Vader is Luke's father) but I need to who's on who's side, and why they oppose each other, or no impact is made period. In this situation, all I know is that Paran wants to get the Dark Hounds to kill Dejim Nebrahl. I don't know what the hell Poliel has to do with this, I don't know why the Hounds of Shadow can't be used when supposedly Paran and Shadowthrone are on the same side, and another thing, I have no clue what importance there was of including that Jaghut woman Ganath when all she does is get killed a couple hundred pages later.

View PostAbyss, on 04 October 2014 - 07:36 PM, said:

View PostK, on 04 October 2014 - 06:40 PM, said:

If I don't know how things affect each other, then I have no reason to care about them. I mean, Poliel is pretty much introduced only two hundred pages before she's killed off and I have no idea what her ultimate endgame was, so I neither care that she died, nor that Paran survived, (since I pretty much hate him anyway).

View PostAbyss, on 04 October 2014 - 05:53 AM, said:

View PostK, on 04 October 2014 - 03:18 AM, said:

Gah, like I said before, motivations need to be clear here, and the nature of the alliances as well.
...


why?



So you want the author to explain everything to you?

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