[Randomander]

So I'm currently doing a reread, and I'm just into the second or third chapter of Deadhouse Gates. The story right now is Mappo and Icarium chillin, eaten cacti, and basically just trolling around looking for some insight into Icarium's past in the Holy Desert. This is right around the beginning of the migration of Soul Taken / D'ivers to the Desert as well in search of their path to ascendency or whatever. Anyway, Icarium and Mappo come to find they are being hunted by a pack of desert wolves, which turns out to be a D'ivers. Mappo confronts this wolf pack, saying he knows this guy and thinks he can talk to him. He calls him Ryllandaras, and refers to him as the brother of Treach. Whats the deal with that? Ryllandaras is supposed to be some insane Man eating 12 foot white Jackal (D'ivers I'm assuming though it was a little ambiguous in RotCG, since we never saw people fighting more than one jackal at a time) who was sealed away beneath Li Heng, but in DHG it clearly states he's a pack of desert wolves.

Some thoughts i had, pure speculation of course
- Maybe D'ivers when separated from their host or pack or whatever can change or alter what they were and become something new. Adapt to their environment so to speak, and with Rylandaras, when the main body, or the body with the most power was sealed beneath Li Heng the other parts branched out and became these wolves....? Anyway there is some precedence with those three brother D'ivers (Ahl, Thai, and Lar i believe) who were separated and acted as individuals while alone, yet in unison when together.

Sorry if this seems jumbled, I just wanted to post before it slipped my mind

***TITLE TYPO - COLLAR = COLLAB (COLLABORATION)***

This post has been edited by Randomander: 25 September 2014 - 04:02 AM

[Aptorian]

You are on to the truth.

The triplet human soletaken are an explanation of what happened to Rylandaras. At some point many years past, Ryl took the worst most feral part of his nature and put it into one seperate soletaken form and then he left it behind. That is why the Rylandaras from DG behaves less insane or violent than the rest of the Soletaken we come across.

[amphibian]

Ryllandaras was a pack of jackals going around being evil and stuff.

Then the really evil emotional/physical/magical part of him was locked away beneath Li Heng as a really big human/jackal hybrid, while the rest of him went away as jackals.

Then somewhere along the few thousand years interval, the pack of jackals evolved into a pack of desert wolves. The human/jackal hybrid didn't change.

It's not a mistake - just a weird new wrinkle that actually was kinda cool to read and think about. Soletaken have different flavors and are somewhat mutable.

[theocean]

Im arounf the same spot in my re-read and had the same question.


other question regarding soletaken/d'ivers... Are they limited to one particular form? How is the form chosen ( i know Rake had to drink the blood of the elient) but what about the others. Do they chose their form or are they just destined to be that particular beast when they change. Why are some 1000s of things and other are 5 or 6. When one of a D'ivers part dies does that weaken the rest?

[Aptorian]

theocean, on 25 September 2014 - 03:13 PM, said:

Im arounf the same spot in my re-read and had the same question.


other question regarding soletaken/d'ivers... Are they limited to one particular form? How is the form chosen ( i know Rake had to drink the blood of the elient) but what about the others. Do they chose their form or are they just destined to be that particular beast when they change. Why are some 1000s of things and other are 5 or 6. When one of a D'ivers part dies does that weaken the rest?

Many of those questions are answered in DG and BH.

I can't recall any soletaken switching between different types of animal... was there one in DG?

Of the Soletaken we have heard about or seen, they are usually related to their culture or some kind of violent purpose.

The Imass worshipped beasts and so they must have had particular gods or spirits that they chose to imitate.

The Jheck all turn into wolves and worship the Pack.

Bulk Buke wished to lose his humanity and escape from what he remembered so K'rul made him into a bird that could fly high above the land.

The people of the first human empire (I am guessing some kind of aristocracy to be specific) would sometimes chose to become soletaken rather than Ascend. Trake was a first hero of the Empire and was a tiger. Rylandaras was also from this age I think and obviously chose to become some kind canine animal.

Whether all First Empire soletaken chose martial forms or whether there was also more vain or refined choices we can only guess.

What ever the case, the First Empire fell when a big magical ritual that involved a fragment of shadow and probably the Deragoth/Hounds of Shadow went wrong and instead of turning people soletaken singular, turned them into soletaken plural. They became D'ivers These people were made into many forms, which partitioned their minds and drove many insane, cue the T'lan Imass turning up and killing anyone they could find.

As far as we know the only D'ivers that exist(except one?) came out of the First Empires fall. That also means that they are really old and strong. Hence Dhenrabhi D'ivers, rat swarms, etc. We know from Dejim Nebrahl, the demon D'ivers that was made during the first empire that killing one of a D'ivers forms weakens it. The D'ivers need to feed to be able to create more forms.

The only real limitation for their number of forms we know of is food sources. However you could speculate that unless the mind of the D'ivers is exceptionally strong, splitting into more than a handful of bodies will drive the mind insane or make it lose cohesion.

There is one exception to the notion that all D'ivers came out of the First Empire.

CRIPPLED GOD SPOILERS!

Spoiler

T'iam/Tiam appears to be a manifestation of some kind of Dragon Hivemind. Tiam takes the form of many Dragons acting as one. Which suggests that she is a D'ivers being allthough a special one.

EDIT: Amphibious editing,

This post has been edited by Apt: 25 September 2014 - 07:41 PM

[worry]

Not to be a pest, but there's at least one more exception from that same book.

And I think I do agree, in a general sense, that D'ivers do face a higher risk of instability, though obviously risk is still present in Soletaken as well.

[Aptorian]

worry, on 25 September 2014 - 06:31 PM, said:

Not to be a pest, but there's at least one more exception from that same book.

TCG? I am trying to rack my brain around that.

Spoiler

Are you referring to Bottle? Because he was brain/soul hoping?

Or Quick Ben? Because we assume that his d'ivers/soletaken form is simply what ever soul is dominant at that point?

I don't really think of Quick as a D'ivers. I am not sure there is a name for what he is. Soletaken Schizophrenic would probably be a better description for that.

[worry]

None of the above.

Spoiler

I'm not sure I want to say more here in RotCG, as hard a choice as that may seem. Hope that doesn't bug you too much.

[amphibian]

Dang it, Apt. You're off on a few different things.

Apt, on 25 September 2014 - 04:33 PM, said:

I can't recall any soletaken switching between different types of animal... was there one in DG?

[..]


The people of the first human empire (I am guessing some kind of aristocracy to be specific) would sometimes chose to become soletaken rather than Ascend. Trake was a first hero of the Empire and was a tiger. Rylandaras was also from this age I think and obviously chose to become some kind wolf like animal.

As the above posts and Erikson/ICE's writing clearly lay out, Ryllandaras went with the jackal form first, then switched over to the wolves sometime in the intervening thousands of years since the Li Heng split. We do not see this shift or imprisonment onscreen, but it does happen.

Quote

Bulk wished to lose his humanity and escape from what he remembered so K'rul made him into a bird that could fly high above the land.

Bult is the guy with Coltaine. Buke is the guard that wanted to stop Bauchelain and Korbal Broach from wreaking havoc in their crow forms, so he took K'rul's offer and eventually subsumed himself fully into the sparrowhawk form.

Quote

What ever the case, the First Empire fell when a big magical ritual that involved a fragment of shadow and probably the Deragoth/Hounds of Shadow went wrong and instead of turning people soletaken singular, turned them into soletaken plural. They became D'ivers These people were made into many forms, which partitioned their minds and drove many insane, cue the T'lan Imass turning up and killing everyone.

The T'lan initiated a slaughter of the First Empire humans/Soletaken/D'ivers, but they obviously didn't get everyone and after a certain point, didn't care much about it past the initial efforts. It probably ended up being a hasty clean-up plus massacre of any of the mundane humans who didn't die from the initial transformation/explosion of Soletaken/D'ivers.

This post has been edited by amphibian: 25 September 2014 - 09:25 PM

[Aptorian]

Just commenting on my inaccuracies, I was on my way out of the door at the time.

When I wrote wolf life I should probably just had written canine/canid. I would describe a jackal, coyote, hyena and any other large dig like creature as wolf like but really, come to think of it a Jackal is probably more dog or fox like. One might even say a jackal is jackal-like.

What I meant when I said I didn't recall a soletaken shifting between animals. I didn't mean over time. I meant one second he's a Lizard Tiger, the next he is a rat mule. From what we know, soletaken are not that mutable. Gods on the other hand.

Yes, I meant Buke. All though a Wickan Soletaken Rooster would also be pretty awesome.

When I said killed everyone I was speaking in a general sense. Obviously somebody had to have survived but a whole lot of people didn't and as far as we know that was the end of the Empires power.

This post has been edited by Apt: 25 September 2014 - 08:21 PM

[Randomander]

worry, on 25 September 2014 - 07:03 PM, said:

None of the above.

Spoiler

I'm not sure I want to say more here in RotCG, as hard a choice as that may seem. Hope that doesn't bug you too much.

What the heck dude don't leave us hangin! This is gonna eat me alive, tear at my soul until I'm nothing but an empty shell... i have to know....

[amphibian]

For those who have done a re-read and still haven't figured out what Worry is referring to, I'll put it in spoilers below:


The Crippled God spoiler (book further on down the line from Return of the Crimson Guard)

Spoiler

The Forkrul Assail god who has been diminished and broken into many different types of bugs (and potentially other small creatures in the Glass Desert) is the other example of a D'ivers that did not come from the First Empire ritual and has perhaps changed over time as well.

This post has been edited by amphibian: 25 September 2014 - 09:24 PM

[K'Chain Bull'shite]

amphibian, on 25 September 2014 - 04:27 AM, said:

Ryllandaras was a pack of jackals going around being evil and stuff.

Then the really evil emotional/physical/magical part of him was locked away beneath Li Heng as a really big human/jackal hybrid, while the rest of him went away as jackals.

Then somewhere along the few thousand years interval, the pack of jackals evolved into a pack of desert wolves. The human/jackal hybrid didn't change.

It's not a mistake - just a weird new wrinkle that actually was kinda cool to read and think about. Soletaken have different flavors and are somewhat mutable.

This is a great explanation of the confusion around Ryllandaras and I'm happy to accept it in order to clear my anger and disppointemnt surrounding Cam's treatment of Ryllandaras but does it state this anywhere in the books?

[Gorefest]

Why blame ICE? SE acknowledges this change as well. In DG, Mappo says to Ryllandaras: "Long way from home, aren't we. Your brother Treach had it mind that he killed you. Where was that chasm? Dal Hon? Or was it Li Heng? You were D'ivers jackals then, I seem to recall."

And in MoI, the following from Treach: "Ryllandaras, old friend - we fell out, clashed, then clashed again on another continent. He had gone the farthest, found a way to control the gifts - Soletaken and D'ivers both. White Jackal. Ay'tog. Agkor."

It's the combination of Soletaken and D'ivers, combined with Ryllandaras' greater control over the abilities, that can very believably account for this change.

This post has been edited by Gorefest: 26 September 2014 - 10:42 AM

[Malaclypse]

Those references do not necessitate the splitting of Ryllandaras' soul.

[Gorefest]

Ah, I misunderstood the grievance.

[Syphonics]

amphibian, on 25 September 2014 - 04:27 AM, said:

Ryllandaras was a pack of jackals going around being evil and stuff.

Then the really evil emotional/physical/magical part of him was locked away beneath Li Heng as a really big human/jackal hybrid, while the rest of him went away as jackals.

Then somewhere along the few thousand years interval, the pack of jackals evolved into a pack of desert wolves. The human/jackal hybrid didn't change.

It's not a mistake - just a weird new wrinkle that actually was kinda cool to read and think about. Soletaken have different flavors and are somewhat mutable.

I don't think it was a few thousand years, probably more like 100, considering that Kellanved and Dancer were the ones who trapped him beneath Li Heng.

[Malaclypse]

Even so, I'm going to try to subscribe to this theory because the alternative is unpleasant. It's very pretty

[amphibian]

Syphonics, on 26 September 2014 - 06:41 PM, said:

I don't think it was a few thousand years, probably more like 100, considering that Kellanved and Dancer were the ones who trapped him beneath Li Heng.

Oh, shoot. I forgot about that.

That makes for a very strange timeline of Ryllandaras's changes then.

[Syphonics]

amphibian, on 26 September 2014 - 08:59 PM, said:

Syphonics, on 26 September 2014 - 06:41 PM, said:

I don't think it was a few thousand years, probably more like 100, considering that Kellanved and Dancer were the ones who trapped him beneath Li Heng.

Oh, shoot. I forgot about that.

That makes for a very strange timeline of Ryllandaras's changes then.

I dunno if it's that strange, I mean, in DG Ryllandaras was a pack of 6 desert wolves, then in HoC he was up to 20 wolves (I don't remember if they specified desert or otherwise). That's a triple in numbers, if not species change entirely, in... a year? Maybe?