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The Blade of Bone Spoilers for Assail

#81 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 10 December 2014 - 09:43 PM

Spinnock was away from Coral when the finale of TTH goes down, then gravely injured in his fight with Kallor, and then whisked away to Kharkanas. Convalescence and duty probably held him from the barrow till now.
They came with white hands and left with red hands.
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#82 User is offline   Vaddon Ra 

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Posted 28 March 2015 - 09:15 AM

So if Spinnock died at the gate, and if Jethis is AR and wants to visit the barrow of a friend he played Kef Tanar with, the other Andii would have had to have then taken Spinnock's body to Coral and errect a barrow for him there.
If Jethis is Spinnock then there's a few things that don't add up. Simples.

Spinnock is big though, not so much tall but built. Rake is tall, with broad shoulders but it's never really mentioned that he is burly and I'm pretty sure when we are introduced to Spin in TTH he is a bit more jacked than most tiste we have met. And Jethiss is a big, nasty, violent fella. It's also never clear how good with weapons Spinnock is compared to Rake.. He must have been pretty damned good to be sent on Rake's errands time and time again, and even though Rake and Dassem are legit badasses Spinnock Duelled Kallor for like 14 hours straight just to stop him going to Daru.. ]


urgh

More of Jethiss and Fisher, Ice should just write short stories like SE does with Borchelain and Broach...


Actually


ICE

take note

Do that in between your pre-empire stuff

ICE????



ICE?


Are you reading this????!!!!
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#83 User is offline   Vaddon Ra 

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Posted 28 March 2015 - 09:21 AM

[quote name='worry' timestamp='1417911204' post='1163278']
No hints point at Rake uniquely. They're just filtered through Fisher's hopes of meeting his hero and most famous subject. And the fact that the barrow thing is the final remark should tell you something....because it's the reveal. Spinnock isn't just some good swordsman either, he is Rake's right hand man.



Will also point out that he is also Rake's Champion. Although Rake has the House of Darkness title... he is also pretty much acting as King of Darkness while they are all away from Kurald Galain. Spinnock Durav is pretty much Champion of the Tiste population in the human world. I'm pretty sure it's only because he comes to the malazan book of the fallen pretty late (book 8 right?) that most of us here neglect to see him as anything special, and I think SE meant to show him as being very very awesome. Like he did with the Watch.

I actually didn't care about Yedan in Book 7 or 9 and didn't quite get the point, as I was racing through reading Dust of Dreams and RG for all the characters I'd been with for the previous books. It's only at TCG when we see how good SE meant for The Watch to be that it sinks in. Why not the same with Spinnock? Everyone forgets him and forgets that in most of TTH he is far more prevalent a character than Rake.. who, lets face it fanboys, sits around for most of the book thinking about sad things.
It's only right at the end that Rake does anything cool (yes it is very very cool) but for the most part TTH is a story of the "other Tiste" and for that part we learn that Spinnock was sent by Rake to pretty much every place to lay down the law and kick asses...

Also

He went to Assail...

for Rake

and fought his way out

and so

it kinda makes sense that MD (and I guess Rake's spirit or whatever) would send Spinnock back all Ascended and junk :D
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#84 User is offline   D'iver koala bear 

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Posted 12 August 2015 - 10:40 AM

It's rake he was a Mage spinnock wasn't
Rake had white hair spinnock had reddish hair
Rake had the body of a swordsman spinnock was bearish and the biggest andi their was so not spinnock again
Fisher is half or quarter jaghut so spinnock wouldn't be heavy for him to carry but rake would cause of his Soletaken ability
Rake was son of darkness spinnock wasn't from what I can remember from forge of darkness
Rake was knight of high house darkness the andi's protector and had the greatest sword of all the realms, warrens and holds, spinnock broke his sword against kallor but had a new one against the liosan and he never died because he was with nimander, korlat and others at the end of the crippled God
Spinnock played kef tanner using rakes moves
And I'm ver sure every god, elder God, ascendant and mortal who's ever met rake would call him their friend AND who knows caladan brood might have a little camp sight outside coral or he might be walking through the halls of coral remernising on the old stuff rake and the andi left there
But I'm 100% certain that isn't spinnock otherwise there wouldn't of been any need for the kef taner games and the conversation where he tells him you won again lord what's the point
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#85 User is offline   D'iver koala bear 

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Posted 12 August 2015 - 10:46 AM

And rake told him he'll never ask him to do anything again after the kallor thing so that means rakes gotta do everything him self now and I'm sure mother dark and nimander wouldn't ask spinnock to do anything else after all they've done so just leaves rake plus spinnock didn't die and oh yeah I didnt mention spinnock didn't die lol
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#86 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 13 August 2015 - 07:28 AM

Spoiler

They came with white hands and left with red hands.
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#87 User is offline   Nevyn 

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Posted 13 August 2015 - 02:48 PM

This has been debated endlessly in various threads, but let's clear some things up.

Quote

And rake told him he'll never ask him to do anything again after the kallor thing so that means rakes gotta do everything him self now and I'm sure mother dark and nimander wouldn't ask spinnock to do anything else after all they've done so just leaves rake


The last thing Rake asks of Spinnock is the Kallor thing.

After that Rake dies. So it was the last thing he asked.

It was not the last thing ANY Andii ask of him or the last thing for him to do, because later he leads the Andii at Lightfall

Quote

Rake had white hair spinnock had reddish hair


I think we can dispense with the physical attributes. They are written specifically to be ambiguous for most of the book.

Quote

Rake was son of darkness spinnock wasn't from what I can remember from forge of darkness


Son of Darkness is a title and a position within the high house dark. Sandalath was not originally Queen either.

And Jethiss specifically mentions that it is now more of a title. Why now? Same position, different guy.

Quote

It's rake he was a Mage spinnock wasn't


Its not like Jethiss goes around maging everything. He unveils KG in one specific instance.

It is my reading of the series as a whole that all Tiste Andii can access Kurald Galain just as all Jaghut have access to Omtose Phellack. In MoI all the Andii participate in the unveiling at Coral.

Quote

Spinnock played kef tanner using rakes moves


First, that is a liberal interpretation. Spinnock says 'you won again, Lord'. But Spinnocks King in the game is a piece modelled after Rake.

That Rake has to ask how he won (via the gate) means he clearly wasn't controlling the moves enough to know for sure the outcome. And being that it is played in a sitting with multiple players and alliances, for Rake to give all the moves in advance doesn't make sense.

But more importantly, this is the passage


'I would travel to Coral,' Jethiss answered. 'There is a modest barrow there I would pay my respects to. A good friend. Many evenings we spent together playing Kef Tanar.'

Rake never met Seerdomin. Even if you say that by proxy he played, Rake was not the friend, Spinnock was. Rake did not spend nights together with him, Spinnock did. Even if they were Rake's moves, Spinnock played them.

Quote

spinnock didn't die


Spinnock didn't die 'onscreen', but he is not seen with other Tiste after the battle, and Korlat has a stone to remember him by, which would be strange if he survived

Also, where does it say explicitly Jethiss had died? He was found apparently dead in the water, but thats because he was in the water.

In other words this conclusion is potentially wrong on both ends.

This post has been edited by Nevyn: 13 August 2015 - 02:48 PM

Tatts early in SH game: Hmm, so if I'm liberal I should have voted Nein to make sure I'm president? I'm not that selfish

Tatts later in SAME game: I'm going to be a corrupt official. I have turned from my liberal ways, and now will vote against the pesky liberals. Viva la Fascism.
When Venge's turn comes, he will get a yes from Mess, Dolmen, Nevyn and Venge but a no from the 3 fascists and me. **** with my Government, and i'll **** with yours
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#88 User is offline   Gorefest 

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Posted 13 August 2015 - 03:13 PM

Perfect summary. In my opinion, the 'reveal' is in the final kef tanar remark. The whole book builds up this "Is it, isn't it...?" suspense, and that final remark settles the score. Or so ICE must have thought. Seems perfectly logical from both a storytelling perspective and a mythos arc perspective. I still don't understand why so many people think it must be Rake. Surely it would make no literary sense to have one of your most epic characters die heroically and finally (scattered in a million pieces in Darkness), to then have him pop up again floating in an ocean somewhere? It's Spinnock.
She went and she left me like litter. She took all future summers with her. I lost all my money cuz I tried to bribe her. Now I can only afford an amateur sniper.
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#89 User is offline   Nevyn 

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Posted 13 August 2015 - 03:24 PM

View PostGorefest, on 13 August 2015 - 03:13 PM, said:

Perfect summary. In my opinion, the 'reveal' is in the final kef tanar remark. The whole book builds up this "Is it, isn't it...?" suspense, and that final remark settles the score. Or so ICE must have thought. Seems perfectly logical from both a storytelling perspective and a mythos arc perspective. I still don't understand why so many people think it must be Rake. Surely it would make no literary sense to have one of your most epic characters die heroically and finally (scattered in a million pieces in Darkness), to then have him pop up again floating in an ocean somewhere? It's Spinnock.


Exactly. ICE has made some bad story decisions in his day, but having Rake's sacrifice be a breather and some amnesia would be pretty terrible even for him. It would dwarf the infamous "it was all a dream" moment in Dallas. It would lead one to wonder if Jethiss was found unconscious in the water after attempting to jump over a shark in waterskis.
Tatts early in SH game: Hmm, so if I'm liberal I should have voted Nein to make sure I'm president? I'm not that selfish

Tatts later in SAME game: I'm going to be a corrupt official. I have turned from my liberal ways, and now will vote against the pesky liberals. Viva la Fascism.
When Venge's turn comes, he will get a yes from Mess, Dolmen, Nevyn and Venge but a no from the 3 fascists and me. **** with my Government, and i'll **** with yours
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#90 User is offline   D'iver koala bear 

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Posted 14 August 2015 - 01:07 PM

No it just don't make sense there was no point at all for kef taner in any of the books at all when rake asks about the game all he has to say is I won again lord plus he's known him for untold amount of years im sure he's seen rake play literally a million times using rakes moves would be second nature to him and if he's good he could dictate how the others play with certain moves like chess and tic tac toe so no I don't think it's as straight forward as you think hood came back once ,toc came back twice, tool came back twice
His wife hetan came back once resurrecting isn't as hard as you think if it's gift of a god and if mother darks back and they have a queen again why send spinnock when you have nimander a near exact replica of rake so it ain't spinnock it is rake plus he has to come back for a little family reunion with silchas and nimander it just don't make sense being spinnock
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#91 User is offline   D'iver koala bear 

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Posted 14 August 2015 - 01:11 PM

View PostGorefest, on 13 August 2015 - 03:13 PM, said:

Perfect summary. In my opinion, the 'reveal' is in the final kef tanar remark. The whole book builds up this "Is it, isn't it...?" suspense, and that final remark settles the score. Or so ICE must have thought. Seems perfectly logical from both a storytelling perspective and a mythos arc perspective. I still don't understand why so many people think it must be Rake. Surely it would make no literary sense to have one of your most epic characters die heroically and finally (scattered in a million pieces in Darkness), to then have him pop up again floating in an ocean somewhere? It's Spinnock.

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#92 User is offline   Gorefest 

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Posted 14 August 2015 - 02:00 PM

View PostD, on 14 August 2015 - 01:07 PM, said:

No it just don't make sense there was no point at all for kef taner in any of the books at all when rake asks about the game all he has to say is I won again lord plus he's known him for untold amount of years im sure he's seen rake play literally a million times using rakes moves would be second nature to him and if he's good he could dictate how the others play with certain moves like chess and tic tac toe so no I don't think it's as straight forward as you think hood came back once ,toc came back twice, tool came back twice
His wife hetan came back once resurrecting isn't as hard as you think if it's gift of a god and if mother darks back and they have a queen again why send spinnock when you have nimander a near exact replica of rake so it ain't spinnock it is rake plus he has to come back for a little family reunion with silchas and nimander it just don't make sense being spinnock


I'd try and answer you if I could make sense of what you were writing. Could you perhaps use some interpunction to delineate sentences and such? And 'it makes no sense' is not really much of a retort, because Nevyn just showed you that there is a lot of sense in it being Spinnock and not much sense in it being Rake.
She went and she left me like litter. She took all future summers with her. I lost all my money cuz I tried to bribe her. Now I can only afford an amateur sniper.
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#93 User is offline   Nevyn 

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Posted 14 August 2015 - 03:25 PM

View PostD, on 14 August 2015 - 01:07 PM, said:

No it just don't make sense there was no point at all for kef taner in any of the books at all when rake asks about the game all he has to say is I won again lord plus he's known him for untold amount of years im sure he's seen rake play literally a million times using rakes moves would be second nature to him and if he's good he could dictate how the others play with certain moves like chess and tic tac toe so no I don't think it's as straight forward as you think hood came back once ,toc came back twice, tool came back twice
His wife hetan came back once resurrecting isn't as hard as you think if it's gift of a god and if mother darks back and they have a queen again why send spinnock when you have nimander a near exact replica of rake so it ain't spinnock it is rake plus he has to come back for a little family reunion with silchas and nimander it just don't make sense being spinnock


It would help if you took some time to think out what you want to reply, and separate thoughts into actual sentences and paragraphs.

As it is, it is tough to follow what you are saying, and your thoughts come across as muddled. You seem to want it to be Rake and to be reaching for any possible support.

But to answer some key themes of your post

What was the point of Kef Tanar


Kef Tanar allowed SE to follow the redemption story of Seerdomin and introduce Spinnock as a character. If you think he wrote all of that into his books so ICE could have a throwaway sentence at the end of Assail, you are out of your mind.

Spinnock knows Rake's moves from a million previous games


Spinnock imitating Rake would still be Spinnock playing, not Rake playing. If Rake is not hearing about each move Seerdomin makes and reacting to it, he is not 'playing'

And again, its not just the playing. Jethiss refers to Seerdomin as a friend and says he spent many nights playing Kef Tanar with him. Even if it is Rakes moves, that is Spinnock.

Other characters came back from the 'dead'


Sure they did, the point it not that it is impossible, the point is that it makes zero sense in terms of story.

Rake sacrificing himself if the fulcrum of the whole series. If it turns out to be no true sacrifice the whole things rings false and, quite frankly silly.

Why send Spinnock and not Nimander


I'm not mother dark, so I don't know. But Nimander was a soletaken eleint, and taking the blood of Tiam was one of the main grievances of MD in the first place.
Tatts early in SH game: Hmm, so if I'm liberal I should have voted Nein to make sure I'm president? I'm not that selfish

Tatts later in SAME game: I'm going to be a corrupt official. I have turned from my liberal ways, and now will vote against the pesky liberals. Viva la Fascism.
When Venge's turn comes, he will get a yes from Mess, Dolmen, Nevyn and Venge but a no from the 3 fascists and me. **** with my Government, and i'll **** with yours
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#94 User is offline   Deck of Dragons 

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Posted 20 August 2015 - 03:58 PM

Very interesting theories! The reasons for it being Spinnock do seem rather convincing!
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#95 User is offline   polishgenius 

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Posted 09 October 2015 - 10:26 PM

View PostNevyn, on 14 August 2015 - 03:25 PM, said:

Rake sacrificing himself if the fulcrum of the whole series. If it turns out to be no true sacrifice the whole things rings false and, quite frankly silly.



While I do think it's definitely Spinnock, it wouldn't exactly be out-of-character for SE in particular to have a moving sacrifice or tragic death rendered moot by the character later popping up alive after all.
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