[EmperorMagus]

EmperorMagus, on 14 August 2014 - 02:29 PM, said:

No, it's actually more like:
Every fucking democratic government we've ever had has sold everything in this country to fucking imperialist asshats. The only way that will not happen is if we rule our land.

This argument is not about ISIS atm, which is a group of degenerates from around the world, but middle east in the whole, and why it is such a breeding ground.

The sort of thought you point out exists, I'm not denying that. I'm talking about the conditions that allow that sort of thought to exist is such a great number of
people.

This is not about ISIS. The rest is.

The simple fact (IMHO) is that without foreign arms, ISIS could not have captured this much territory and defeated this many armies. Therefore they would not have been able to conduct such slaughters.

Edit: Also the fact that you state ISLAM has a fundamental craziness then you are simply mad. Every simple religion is full of fucking craziness, in some parts of the world there are enoguh security soldiers to control them, in some other parts there aren't.

This post has been edited by EmperorMagus: 14 August 2014 - 02:40 PM

[Studlock]

HoosierDaddy, on 14 August 2014 - 02:35 PM, said:

This is a thread about ISIS. Not about other wrongs America has done, which I assure I know we've done and I'll readily admit.

If you want to blame America for ISIS then just state it. You won't because you know that ISIS wouldn't exist without a fundamental craziness that doesn't exist outside the realms of normal Islam.

Just want to chime in here before every gets all Islamphobic, good old Christians put my people's children into schools, then tried to rape, beat, and murder the 'savage' out of them (in the 1960-70s, people still bare the scares to this day), but really they just wanted them either dead or assimilated because it made it easier to acquire there lands, point being rarely are things only motivated by single things, conflicts are generally multifaceted things that have many layers to peel back. ISIS wouldn't exist without the actions of imperialistic state-actors, it is a well known fact that many hardline fundamentalist (nationalism plays it's part to) groups in the Middle East were created in opposition to imperialistic state-actors, ISIS is built off of that history and off of the weapons left by the USA.

I think ISIS is scum, mostly because I think the vast majority of states on the planet are scum including the USA (like the biggest scum on the planet, the only empire that didn't even attempt to decolonize), but lets stop doing A: taking the situation out the historical context it developed in and B: being an Islamphobic asshat about it.

[HoosierDaddy]

The Islamic State.

I'm not criticizing Islam at all. I'm not BLAMING Islam. Most Muslim people are just like everybody else: regular people just getting on in the world.

I'm saying that without psychopathic followers of Islam this wouldn't happen. What the fuck are you all smoking if you disagree with this? I'd say the same thing about Christian activities if they were driving around murdering people for no better reason that they weren't the correct form of Christianity.

[Studlock]

They did, the state that emerged from it was called the USA, but I doubt you have any words for the good old Christians of America because that's all in the past (just kidding, it still affects the present). I'm saying that the state wouldn't exist for a great number of reason including imperialistic operations in the are for over a 100 years that molded the area into what is today. You understand that today's extremism was created by yesterdays imperialism right? It didn't just bubbling into existence one day 'well better start being religious extremist'. It was a reaction to a long history of occupation, a history of oppression, and history theft from the Ottomans, and then the British, and then America. It wasn't simply born without context, it was forged. At yes ISIS is fucking terrible scum, but they aren't the only ones to blame because sadly the world is more complicated than that. Tyrannical states have always existed, there's nothing new about ISIS, because like every other state like them, they don't actually believe in anything but power and control. If not Islam, then communism, and if not that fascism, and if not that capitalism, or justice, or freedom, or whatever bullshit they want to push to hide there true intentions of domination. It doesn't matter what psychopaths follow because at the end of the day they're still psychopaths. Psychopaths made in reaction to other psychopaths, in this case American psychopaths.

[HoosierDaddy]

Studlock, on 14 August 2014 - 04:33 PM, said:

They did, the state that emerged from it was called the USA, but I doubt you have any words for the good old Christians of America because that's all in the past (just kidding, it still affects the present). I'm saying that the state wouldn't exist for a great number of reason including imperialistic operations in the are for over a 100 years that molded the area into what is today. You understand that today's extremism was created by yesterdays imperialism right? It didn't just bubbling into existence one day 'well better start being religious extremist'. It was a reaction to a long history of occupation, a history of oppression, and history theft from the Ottomans, and then the British, and then America. It wasn't simply born without context, it was forged. At yes ISIS is fucking terrible scum, but they aren't the only ones to blame because sadly the world is more complicated than that. Tyrannical states have always existed, there's nothing new about ISIS, because like every other state like them, they don't actually believe in anything but power and control. If not Islam, then communism, and if not that fascism, and if not that capitalism, or justice, or freedom, or whatever bullshit they want to push to hide there true intentions of domination. It doesn't matter what psychopaths follow because at the end of the day they're still psychopaths. Psychopaths made in reaction to other psychopaths, in this case American psychopaths.

In paragraph form I believe that reads:

ISIS are psychopaths, but
So are other states, including
The United States

So that makes the murdering of random people for religious beliefs okay! Because the U.S. supported tyrants in the area! That makes every warcrime known to man a not so bad thing because the United States was at one point in the country doing bad things! The US supported Kurds: Let's kill all the Shia's!. The U.S. supported the Sunnis: Let's kill all the Shia's!

That you truly believe that this mitigates things speaks louder than anything you could ever say. I do not condone what we have done, and I would never condone it. But, for some reason, U.S. support of ANYTHING makes EVERYTHING a legitimate action. That's fucking retarded and you should recognize that. If you don't, well then, shame, on you.

[EmperorMagus]

HoosierDaddy, on 14 August 2014 - 05:27 PM, said:

In paragraph form I believe that reads:

ISIS are psychopaths, but
So are other states, including
The United States

So that makes the murdering of random people for religious beliefs okay! Because the U.S. supported tyrants in the area! That makes every warcrime known to man a not so bad thing because the United States was at one point in the country doing bad things! The US supported Kurds: Let's kill all the Shia's!. The U.S. supported the Sunnis: Let's kill all the Shia's!

That you truly believe that this mitigates things speaks louder than anything you could ever say. I do not condone what we have done, and I would never condone it. But, for some reason, U.S. support of ANYTHING makes EVERYTHING a legitimate action. That's fucking retarded and you should recognize that. If you don't, well then, shame, on you.

You are, I believe misunderstanding my problem with your post.
You say we have to let them sort their own shit out, we don't have to help them. That reads to me " We Americans are so good at everything that only we can solve problems, and if we don't help them they will never solve their problems! We're the best"
What I say is, if you hadn't made the problem in the first place there wouldn't be a problem. Please stop talking with that condescending tone and leave us uncivilized barbarians alone.
That actually means not arming opposition to our governments, not staging coups , not assassinating people and specifically not "intervening".

[HoosierDaddy]

EmperorMagus, on 14 August 2014 - 05:33 PM, said:

HoosierDaddy, on 14 August 2014 - 05:27 PM, said:

In paragraph form I believe that reads:

ISIS are psychopaths, but
So are other states, including
The United States

So that makes the murdering of random people for religious beliefs okay! Because the U.S. supported tyrants in the area! That makes every warcrime known to man a not so bad thing because the United States was at one point in the country doing bad things! The US supported Kurds: Let's kill all the Shia's!. The U.S. supported the Sunnis: Let's kill all the Shia's!

That you truly believe that this mitigates things speaks louder than anything you could ever say. I do not condone what we have done, and I would never condone it. But, for some reason, U.S. support of ANYTHING makes EVERYTHING a legitimate action. That's fucking retarded and you should recognize that. If you don't, well then, shame, on you.

You are, I believe misunderstanding my problem with your post.
You say we have to let them sort their own shit out, we don't have to help them. That reads to me " We Americans are so good at everything that only we can solve problems, and if we don't help them they will never solve their problems! We're the best"
What I say is, if you hadn't made the problem in the first place there wouldn't be a problem. Please stop talking with that condescending tone and leave us uncivilized barbarians alone.
That actually means not arming opposition to our governments, not staging coups , not assassinating people and specifically not "intervening".

No, that means let them solve their own problems.

You are reading far too much into things.

I regularly advocate America getting the fuck out of the world. So your "supposed" intuitions are wrong.

I'd rather you all fix your own problems.

[EmperorMagus]

Lord Gator, on 14 August 2014 - 06:10 PM, said:

Ditto

I'm actually curious since your from Iran Mag if you think Saddam was good man?

No, he was a horrible, horrible man who used chemical weapons supplied to him by western nations against Iranians.(That's my problem when someone talks of US "intervention", I can't see them as anything other than lying cheats who want us obligated to them.)
But he kept the country a lot safer than it is now.

[Gust Hubb]

We were listening to "It's Such a Wonderful World" sung by Louis Armstrong yesterday, and I commented to my wife this song should be played before every battle (as a reminder of what it could and should be). She reminded me that this song was already used as background to Vietnam War footage...

I am personally of the philosophy that humanity in general sucks. Reading over the pissing match discussing America, Imperialism, and Religion strikes me as a microcosm for what is going on in the middle east. And in history. Do I remember correctly that there was a lot of ritualistic and territorial infighting between the First People? America was founded as much by political power hungry mongrels as it was by religious nuts. And frankly, the religious texts for all of monotheism are a tapestry of brutality.

I know that as individuals, I would say most if not all people in this discussion are good people, angry but concerned for the well-being of those they love and even far away strangers. In fact, I have yet to meet a truly malignant, evil monster in person, which fails to jive with my perception of humanity as a whole.

So frankly, for whatever reason, I think people are doomed to be this way for eternity. We will always have a spectrum of love and hate for those around us which will influence how we use the level of power we have obtained. Some people have more power and hate and act accordingly. Others, much fewer, have power and love and shape the world accordingly. We do the same on a smaller scale at work and home.

And finally, what would you do if someone threatened you or those for whom you cared? Would you forgive and redeem? Or kill the motherfucker? I would lean towards the latter, and you can see, for those who know me, that if I have such sentiments, how can I be surprised at the rest of humanity as a whole? It's super depressing.

[EmperorMagus]

Lord Gator, on 14 August 2014 - 07:01 PM, said:

But you would rather him or maybe by now one of his sons to still be there correct?

I would prefer a totalitarian dictator be in place. Because ISIS troops are 50km from Iranian border and that is bad news.

[Gust Hubb]

EmperorMagus, on 14 August 2014 - 07:23 PM, said:

Lord Gator, on 14 August 2014 - 07:01 PM, said:

But you would rather him or maybe by now one of his sons to still be there correct?

I would prefer a totalitarian dictator be in place. Because ISIS troops are 50km from Iranian border and that is bad news.

What happens when they reach
Iran?

[EmperorMagus]

Gust Hubb, on 14 August 2014 - 07:26 PM, said:

What happens when they reach
Iran?

If they dare enter, which I doubt but it seems like our government doesn't. I'd guess ethnic religious cleansing., because of the Sunni/Shia schism and the Arab/Iranian schism...

[Studlock]

HoosierDaddy, on 14 August 2014 - 05:27 PM, said:

Studlock, on 14 August 2014 - 04:33 PM, said:

They did, the state that emerged from it was called the USA, but I doubt you have any words for the good old Christians of America because that's all in the past (just kidding, it still affects the present). I'm saying that the state wouldn't exist for a great number of reason including imperialistic operations in the are for over a 100 years that molded the area into what is today. You understand that today's extremism was created by yesterdays imperialism right? It didn't just bubbling into existence one day 'well better start being religious extremist'. It was a reaction to a long history of occupation, a history of oppression, and history theft from the Ottomans, and then the British, and then America. It wasn't simply born without context, it was forged. At yes ISIS is fucking terrible scum, but they aren't the only ones to blame because sadly the world is more complicated than that. Tyrannical states have always existed, there's nothing new about ISIS, because like every other state like them, they don't actually believe in anything but power and control. If not Islam, then communism, and if not that fascism, and if not that capitalism, or justice, or freedom, or whatever bullshit they want to push to hide there true intentions of domination. It doesn't matter what psychopaths follow because at the end of the day they're still psychopaths. Psychopaths made in reaction to other psychopaths, in this case American psychopaths.

In paragraph form I believe that reads:

ISIS are psychopaths, but
So are other states, including
The United States

So that makes the murdering of random people for religious beliefs okay! Because the U.S. supported tyrants in the area! That makes every warcrime known to man a not so bad thing because the United States was at one point in the country doing bad things! The US supported Kurds: Let's kill all the Shia's!. The U.S. supported the Sunnis: Let's kill all the Shia's!

That you truly believe that this mitigates things speaks louder than anything you could ever say. I do not condone what we have done, and I would never condone it. But, for some reason, U.S. support of ANYTHING makes EVERYTHING a legitimate action. That's fucking retarded and you should recognize that. If you don't, well then, shame, on you.

First please stop using the word retard all willy nilly. You obviously didn't understand what I said. You obviously don't appreciate or understand the length of history or the interaction of internal and external pressures that make people act how they act or how those social pressure is created by shared history. I think I make it quiet clear you chest-thumping patriotic prat of a human being that I abhor the ISIS just as I abhor the USA because they use the same excuse (the excuse being I'm right, now lets drop some bombs on you brown folks in the name of freedom/ I'm right, now lets shoot lead into you in the name of Allah) to do terrible shit to people, like all hateful people they find these excuses in anything they can grasp but it always turns out the same in the end: people with bullets in the head. I never once condone the actions of ISIS, I simply stated that the ISIS is a direct reaction to imperialistic fuckwads like the USA and thus those imperialistic fuckwads are in part responsible for what is happening in the Middle East for creating the social conditions that allowed the ISIS to exist. Extremism doesn't form in the void, it is made by the actions and reaction of human beings and state-actors. You can't act as if the world is in your playground and then turn around and act like like you've had no part in breaking all the toys. That's grossly irresponsible. The Iraqis didn't start a war YOU did. You made this fucking bed and now it's time to sleep in it with all it's monster underneath it. If you can't handle that responsibility next time stop your fucking country from going to war.

Oh and for it's extended history USA has and will always be a disgusting mixture of racism and imperialism (it's still a colony state, and has never attempted to decolonize) that even when they attempt to do good (which is rarely if ever) it will always be overshadowed by the bad (the genocide, the slavery, the Jim Crow, the modern day segregation, whatever the fuck is happening in Ferguson, the propping up dictators that suit their needs, the imperialistic wars...America will not be remembered well in history).

This post has been edited by Studlock: 14 August 2014 - 09:32 PM

[Trull's son]

Studlock, on 14 August 2014 - 03:57 PM, said:

Just want to chime in here before every gets all Islamphobic

Islamaphobia is a fucking stupid word used to toss racist charges against anyone critical of Islam, be it religious criticism or criticism of the state. I was surprised and a bit disappointed to come across this while reading the thread.

[HoosierDaddy]

Studlock, on 14 August 2014 - 09:30 PM, said:

HoosierDaddy, on 14 August 2014 - 05:27 PM, said:

Studlock, on 14 August 2014 - 04:33 PM, said:

They did, the state that emerged from it was called the USA, but I doubt you have any words for the good old Christians of America because that's all in the past (just kidding, it still affects the present). I'm saying that the state wouldn't exist for a great number of reason including imperialistic operations in the are for over a 100 years that molded the area into what is today. You understand that today's extremism was created by yesterdays imperialism right? It didn't just bubbling into existence one day 'well better start being religious extremist'. It was a reaction to a long history of occupation, a history of oppression, and history theft from the Ottomans, and then the British, and then America. It wasn't simply born without context, it was forged. At yes ISIS is fucking terrible scum, but they aren't the only ones to blame because sadly the world is more complicated than that. Tyrannical states have always existed, there's nothing new about ISIS, because like every other state like them, they don't actually believe in anything but power and control. If not Islam, then communism, and if not that fascism, and if not that capitalism, or justice, or freedom, or whatever bullshit they want to push to hide there true intentions of domination. It doesn't matter what psychopaths follow because at the end of the day they're still psychopaths. Psychopaths made in reaction to other psychopaths, in this case American psychopaths.

In paragraph form I believe that reads:

ISIS are psychopaths, but
So are other states, including
The United States

So that makes the murdering of random people for religious beliefs okay! Because the U.S. supported tyrants in the area! That makes every warcrime known to man a not so bad thing because the United States was at one point in the country doing bad things! The US supported Kurds: Let's kill all the Shia's!. The U.S. supported the Sunnis: Let's kill all the Shia's!

That you truly believe that this mitigates things speaks louder than anything you could ever say. I do not condone what we have done, and I would never condone it. But, for some reason, U.S. support of ANYTHING makes EVERYTHING a legitimate action. That's fucking retarded and you should recognize that. If you don't, well then, shame, on you.

First please stop using the word retard all willy nilly. You obviously didn't understand what I said. You obviously don't appreciate or understand the length of history or the interaction of internal and external pressures that make people act how they act or how those social pressure is created by shared history. I think I make it quiet clear you chest-thumping patriotic prat of a human being that I abhor the ISIS just as I abhor the USA because they use the same excuse (the excuse being I'm right, now lets drop some bombs on you brown folks in the name of freedom/ I'm right, now lets shoot lead into you in the name of Allah) to do terrible shit to people, like all hateful people they find these excuses in anything they can grasp but it always turns out the same in the end: people with bullets in the head. I never once condone the actions of ISIS, I simply stated that the ISIS is a direct reaction to imperialistic fuckwads like the USA and thus those imperialistic fuckwads are in part responsible for what is happening in the Middle East for creating the social conditions that allowed the ISIS to exist. Extremism doesn't form in the void, it is made by the actions and reaction of human beings and state-actors. You can't act as if the world is in your playground and then turn around and act like like you've had no part in breaking all the toys. That's grossly irresponsible. The Iraqis didn't start a war YOU did. You made this fucking bed and now it's time to sleep in it with all it's monster underneath it. If you can't handle that responsibility next time stop your fucking country from going to war.

Oh and for it's extended history USA has and will always be a disgusting mixture of racism and imperialism (it's still a colony state, and has never attempted to decolonize) that even when they attempt to do good (which is rarely if ever) it will always be overshadowed by the bad (the genocide, the slavery, the Jim Crow, the modern day segregation, whatever the fuck is happening in Ferguson, the propping up dictators that suit their needs, the imperialistic wars...America will not be remembered well in history).

I don't use it willy-nilly. But I will once again use it here.

You are so over the top vehemently anti-U.S. that I can say NOTHING that will make that less. I said the U.S. shouldn't have been in Iraq. I say the U.S. should stay out of the world at large. And you respond by saying the USA "has and will always be a disgusting mixture of racism and imperialism that even when they attempt to do good (if ever) it will always be overshadowed by the bad."

If ANY other country was put to this people would be all over your ass like it was fun, but they aren't. Because we rightfully reap what we have sowed, whether or not it is at all deserved just like this.

You are being retardedly anti-American and I will PROUDLY tell you to shut the fuck up until you can face the situation with some sort of level-headedness. Christ almighty, I'm one of the first to criticize my country, but you take the fucking cake.

America might have created the conditions for ISIS to exist, which I have stated previously, it doesn't mean it is okay to do what ISIS is doing at all and somehow blame the US for it.

[HoosierDaddy]

EmperorMagus, on 14 August 2014 - 02:39 PM, said:

EmperorMagus, on 14 August 2014 - 02:29 PM, said:

No, it's actually more like:
Every fucking democratic government we've ever had has sold everything in this country to fucking imperialist asshats. The only way that will not happen is if we rule our land.

This argument is not about ISIS atm, which is a group of degenerates from around the world, but middle east in the whole, and why it is such a breeding ground.

The sort of thought you point out exists, I'm not denying that. I'm talking about the conditions that allow that sort of thought to exist is such a great number of
people.

This is not about ISIS. The rest is.

The simple fact (IMHO) is that without foreign arms, ISIS could not have captured this much territory and defeated this many armies. Therefore they would not have been able to conduct such slaughters.

Edit: Also the fact that you state ISLAM has a fundamental craziness then you are simply mad. Every simple religion is full of fucking craziness, in some parts of the world there are enoguh security soldiers to control them, in some other parts there aren't.

"Outside the normal bounds of Islam" = not regular Muslim people. I'm well aware all religions have their cuckoos. I'm well aware that most Muslim people are just fine and dandy. I'm also well aware that ISIS is using it as an excuse to murder everyone who doesn't believe what they do, in contradiction of what every other Muslim thinks.

[amphibian]

The relationship between Iran and the US started off rather well in the 1920s. The American oil field developers a fair deal at a time when the Russians and British were very much meddling in the region for their interests.

Since then it's been downhill with transgressions mostly coming from the American private and public/gov't groups.

The Iranians probably look upon us as a schizophrenic really rich guy who keeps fucking things up for them. Most pf those I've known have been very nice and hopeful that we will stop doing these jerkface things.

One of the jerkface moves is creating the preconditions for ISIS to be what it is today. Arms deals, pushing the wrong leaders/politicians, refusing to actually understand and improve local interests and ways of life and so on.

We Americans allowed our crappy Congress and Bush Administration neocons to do this for almost a decade and now we see what happens.

The crappiest thing about this is that Iran is generally an ok place to be and Sistani has allowed the secularism to increase slowly. And that's constantly at risk because of US funding/arming/breaking of Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan.

[HoosierDaddy]

amphibian, on 15 August 2014 - 12:20 AM, said:

The relationship between Iran and the US started off rather well in the 1920s. The American oil field developers a fair deal at a time when the Russians and British were very much meddling in the region for their interests.

Since then it's been downhill with transgressions mostly coming from the American private and public/gov't groups.

The Iranians probably look upon us as a schizophrenic really rich guy who keeps fucking things up for them. Most pf those I've known have been very nice and hopeful that we will stop doing these jerkface things.

One of the jerkface moves is creating the preconditions for ISIS to be what it is today. Arms deals, pushing the wrong leaders/politicians, refusing to actually understand and improve local interests and ways of life and so on.

We Americans allowed our crappy Congress and Bush Administration neocons to do this for almost a decade and now we see what happens.

The crappiest thing about this is that Iran is generally an ok place to be and Sistani has allowed the secularism to increase slowly. And that's constantly at risk because of US funding/arming/breaking of Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Notice how I threw America under the bus for those? How I didn't attempt to explain or simplify the fuck-ups we made?

I'm not ignorant of this. I'm not afraid to admit to this wrong-doing.

That was over the top fuckery and if no one else will call it out I'll retire from this fucking board with a happy fuck off everybody.

[cerveza_fiesta]

wow, this thread got all kinds of ad hominem in the last few hours. It's strange to watch a "debate" from the outside when both sides agree to 99% of the arguments the other is presenting, but somehow they are mad at each other.

RE the blame game, I don't think HD is or ever intended to blame Islam. That's a hollow argument nobody really makes in good faith, and calling him islamophobic is just a petty way to dismiss everything he's saying without putting in any effort. Just calm down, read and reply intelligently and without insult. ISIS is 100% to blame for the killings being perpetrated right now. USA is partially to blame for the conditions that gave rise to ISIS. I don't think anybody is actually attempting to deny either of those facts.

RE the OP, America has to do something or the US gov't looks like even huger shitbags in the eyes of their own people. I think the motivation for bombing ISIS is about that simple. If USA's legacy in Iraq (or even part of Iraq) a mere 13 years post-invasion is an ultra-radical murderous islamic state then the ENTIRE thing -- thousands of lost American lives -- was for less than nought. It makes a 13-year occupation and war that few wanted all the more demoralizing/pointless.

Is Obama thinking much about how the rest of the world sees it? I doubt it; the rest of the world (especially the M.East) thinks they are shitbags regardless.

[Studlock]

'You won't because you know that ISIS wouldn't exist without a fundamental craziness that doesn't exist outside the realms of normal Islam'

I'm sorry but this is an Islamphobic statement anyway you cut it. ISIS would not exist without fundamental craziness that does not exist outside the realms of normal Islam. Somehow only fundamental craziness only exist inside the realms of normal Islam? How is that not a bigoted statement? Perhaps it's poorly phrased?

And again I don't fucking condone ISIS, they could all go die in a fire for all I care, I blame them fully, there scum who use peoples believes against in the name of power. I'm just saying the USA also has a lot to answer for creating the environment that ISIS could be created in. It's a damn if do and damn if you don't situation for sure but only because you did it in the first place

Also I don't feel bad at all for shitting on the USA, it deserves do be shitted upon. It's in the same league as ISIS and any other groups that throws it influence and power around to achieves it's goals. A lot of people are dead because of the USA, and still more are dying. It's the black beating heart of modern economic imperialism and you can tell me to fuck off all you want but that doesn't make it any less true