[the broken]

K, on 01 October 2014 - 06:49 PM, said:

The trope of a farm boy becoming a hero is not necessarily limited to farm boys, its more about any character who lives their day to day in a normal boring atmosphere, suddenly being forced to adapt to weird and dangerous circumstances, thus following the "Hero's Journey". Luke Skywalker, Harry Potter, Bilbo Baggins etc. etc. With that being said, the trope exists in two people as far as I know, (I'm only on the Bonehunters) and that's with Paran, who gets his shit out of the way in Chapter One of Gardens, and Karsa Orlong. In chapter One of Gardens Paran is exposed to so much death and savagery that he pretty much becomes an old man, leading him to be the most unlikable character to me for this book and Memories of Ice, however, he is introduced to a new and more dangerous world, just like the "farm boys". And then there's Karsa, whom people might say isn't an example, but he lived in a society where killing and savagery were normal, thinking that nobody could bring him down, only to find himself enslaved and along the way, learn that everything about his people

Spoiler

was a lie, and the value of mercy. Karsa Orlong's arc over HoC is why he is my favorite character.

That being said, I don't mind this trope in fantasy, even after having read over half of this series, because one, I like simple, clear structure sometimes and two, because its a really effective way of exposing the reader to the world you've built, when a character who knows nothing about it learns, and you learn through them.

So both Erikson's and Campbell's style have their merits.

You know, I can't actually think of many stories that actually follow the 'farm boy' trope, and in the ones that do, they're never 'just' a farmboy. Bilbo Baggins is 'middle aged landowner', Luke is Vader's son, Harry is famous for his parents...

[Abyss]

the broken, on 01 October 2014 - 09:35 PM, said:

...

You know, I can't actually think of many stories that actually follow the 'farm boy' trope, and in the ones that do, they're never 'just' a farmboy. Bilbo Baggins is 'middle aged landowner', Luke is Vader's son, Harry is famous for his parents...

Yes, but the details, the greater destiny, the finer points are an aside... the Farm Boy archetype is, in essence, a viewpoint character entering a new, bigger, world. All your examples follow that route. So do Jordan's Rand Al'Thor, GRRM's Jon Snow, Alexander's Taran Wanderer, McCaffery's Lessa, Butcher's Tavi, Feist's Pug and Tomas.... the trope goes on and on and on....

I'm another one who now has difficulty with a book that starts with a naive character being thrust into the big evil world. There are exceptions and exceptionals, but now, and in particular since i read the first four books of MBF a decade ago, i WANT the author to trust me to figure it out and not spoonfeed me 'everything i need to know'. Don't tell me how magic works because you think you need to explain it in the first five chapters... blow my mind, show me crazy shit and let me figure it out along the way. That investment is exactly what draws me in and put an author on my 'must-pre-order' list.

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

I can empathise with the "post-Erikson" feeling. So many authors I enjoyed before reading Malazan I can barely stomach now - I think it made me realise just how average and samey a lot of the fantasy I'd read up to press actually was. The one "big name" in fantasy who I would say is the exception is Robim Hobb.

Lost most of my interest in Martin, and Song of Ice and Fire has become my new Wheel of Time in that I'm purely reading to find out the end and not because I'm all that interested any more. Rothfuss irritated me on a second read (post-Malazan) and there's plenty more that I just find very "meh" now.

More Malazan re-reads, you say? Yes, I think so!

[Andorion]

Abyss, on 01 October 2014 - 10:05 PM, said:

the broken, on 01 October 2014 - 09:35 PM, said:

...

You know, I can't actually think of many stories that actually follow the 'farm boy' trope, and in the ones that do, they're never 'just' a farmboy. Bilbo Baggins is 'middle aged landowner', Luke is Vader's son, Harry is famous for his parents...

Yes, but the details, the greater destiny, the finer points are an aside... the Farm Boy archetype is, in essence, a viewpoint character entering a new, bigger, world. All your examples follow that route. So do Jordan's Rand Al'Thor, GRRM's Jon Snow, Alexander's Taran Wanderer, McCaffery's Lessa, Butcher's Tavi, Feist's Pug and Tomas.... the trope goes on and on and on....

I'm another one who now has difficulty with a book that starts with a naive character being thrust into the big evil world. There are exceptions and exceptionals, but now, and in particular since i read the first four books of MBF a decade ago, i WANT the author to trust me to figure it out and not spoonfeed me 'everything i need to know'. Don't tell me how magic works because you think you need to explain it in the first five chapters... blow my mind, show me crazy shit and let me figure it out along the way. That investment is exactly what draws me in and put an author on my 'must-pre-order' list.

Morgan's The Steel Remains is probably a great exception to this archetype.

[Abyss]

Andorion, on 02 October 2014 - 01:15 PM, said:

Abyss, on 01 October 2014 - 10:05 PM, said:

the broken, on 01 October 2014 - 09:35 PM, said:

...

You know, I can't actually think of many stories that actually follow the 'farm boy' trope, ...

Yes, but the details, the greater destiny, the finer points are an aside... the Farm Boy archetype is, in essence, a viewpoint character entering a new, bigger, world....
i WANT the author to trust me to figure it out and not spoonfeed me 'everything i need to know'. Don't tell me how magic works because you think you need to explain it in the first five chapters... blow my mind, show me crazy shit and let me figure it out along the way. That investment is exactly what draws me in and put an author on my 'must-pre-order' list.

Morgan's The Steel Remains is probably a great exception to this archetype.

Utterly agreed.

Esp as of the LFFH trilo. His Kovacs books still explained things via the narrator. LAND gives you just a bit at a time.

[Andorion]

Abyss, on 02 October 2014 - 04:31 PM, said:

Andorion, on 02 October 2014 - 01:15 PM, said:

Abyss, on 01 October 2014 - 10:05 PM, said:

the broken, on 01 October 2014 - 09:35 PM, said:

...

You know, I can't actually think of many stories that actually follow the 'farm boy' trope, ...

Yes, but the details, the greater destiny, the finer points are an aside... the Farm Boy archetype is, in essence, a viewpoint character entering a new, bigger, world....
i WANT the author to trust me to figure it out and not spoonfeed me 'everything i need to know'. Don't tell me how magic works because you think you need to explain it in the first five chapters... blow my mind, show me crazy shit and let me figure it out along the way. That investment is exactly what draws me in and put an author on my 'must-pre-order' list.

Morgan's The Steel Remains is probably a great exception to this archetype.

Utterly agreed.

Esp as of the LFFH trilo. His Kovacs books still explained things via the narrator. LAND gives you just a bit at a time.

This is one hell of a powerful trope. I actually sat down and thought about it, and except Morgan and to some extent Abercrombie I can't recall any fantasy author who doesn't use this trope. Of course I haven't read Bakker, Terry Brooks or Tad WIlliams

[RACHEL]

I totally agree with the post Malazan depression towards other books/authors. However, I still can enjoy a book about a naïve person being thrust into the big bad world. Every person is naïve about everything unless they have experienced it themselves. Every big, powerful sorcerer was a young lad/lass at some point who was clueless about real life. The most irritating part about the Malazan books is that they hint about all this history and backstory to all these characters, places, races, ect, then they never fill you in besides the barest details. I wouldn't mind the farmboy trope if it was a book about Anomander growing up, or Icarium, or many other characters that I can't think of right now. I don't like to be spoonfed info in books either but I do wish Malazan gave us more details, not because I can't figure it out (with the help of this site of course) but because I want the full story that was hinted at. I guess I wouldn't mind being told every detail if it was a story in the Malazan world.

[James Hutton]

Andorion, on 02 October 2014 - 05:04 PM, said:

This is one hell of a powerful trope. I actually sat down and thought about it, and except Morgan and to some extent Abercrombie I can't recall any fantasy author who doesn't use this trope. Of course I haven't read Bakker, Terry Brooks or Tad WIlliams

Brooks' Shannara is typical farmboy-thrust-into-evil-world stuff. Haven't read Tad Williams, so can't comment on that, but R. Scott Bakker turns the trope upside down.

I do very much like Christoffer Priest's take on it in Inverted World. It is a story of a boy/young man, who is forcefully thrust into the (to him unkown) outside world, but there it diverges. It's written in 1970-something, but has stood the test of time IMO!

[Egwene]

I didn't mind the farm boy in Brooks books... it just seemed to me that the actual plotlines repeated themselves in one story after the other. I donated my entire Brooks collection to the library recently as I got too fed up with that.


Two series which come to mind that don't start with the farm boy (and sofar have avoided the library trip)...

Obsidian trilogy by Mercedes Lackey and James Mallory - this one has actually got a grown man starting the ball rolling.

The Lighthouse Duet by Carol Berg - the boy has a privileged background but that doesn't make any difference - he still ends up being in trouble!

And never mind the boys...

Michelle Sagara's Chronicles of Elantra are set in a medieval..ish city setting and the main character has joined what counts as the local police force after escaping the slums.

Not totally fantasy but it does involve time travel (the series has been given awards in Romance, Fiction AND Sci-fi/Fantasy - how about that for an identity crisis?!)...

Outlander series by Diana Gabaldon (with SE my joint favourite author) - the main characters are a WWII nurse and a Scottish Highland Rebel of the Bonnie Prince Charlie Period (you'll hear more about this one undoubtedly as it is being made into a TV series a la Game of Thrones. Already showing in the States and a number of other countries with the second series already signed up).


... and speaking of Diana Gabaldon... authors like her and SE would make washing machine instructions a riveting read... even if they had started out with that farmboy!

[Abyss]

Brooks does this once per book, but Bakker not at all, tho he did iitially do some fun stuff with Kelhus learning his way around. Didn't last, because Kelhus, but even so it was interesting.

I haven't read Shadowmarch, but Tad Williams does variations of this in MST, Otherland and War of the Flowers.

[Andorion]

Quote

Obsidian trilogy by Mercedes Lackey and James Mallory - this one has actually got a grown man starting the ball rolling.

Is this by any chance set in pre-conquest central america?

[Egwene]

Andorion, on 08 October 2014 - 01:50 AM, said:

Quote

Obsidian trilogy by Mercedes Lackey and James Mallory - this one has actually got a grown man starting the ball rolling.

Is this by any chance set in pre-conquest central america?

I don't think so. Here is the Wikipedia link for the series. http://en.wikipedia....bsidian_Trilogy

[Andorion]

Egwene, on 09 October 2014 - 08:00 PM, said:

Andorion, on 08 October 2014 - 01:50 AM, said:

Quote

Obsidian trilogy by Mercedes Lackey and James Mallory - this one has actually got a grown man starting the ball rolling.

Is this by any chance set in pre-conquest central america?

I don't think so. Here is the Wikipedia link for the series. http://en.wikipedia....bsidian_Trilogy

Oh right, I had it confused with Obsidian and Blood: http://www.fantastic...ette-de-bodard/

[Illuvatar81]

I see you posted the otherland trilogy by tad Williams, I don't see this technique used very much with this series at all. Really good writer btw, definitely give TW a try if you haven't. Also china mieville is a fantastic author who I haven't seen use this technique much at all. His books are filled with exploration and finding oneself in a foreign world, but more from a position of the story telling than actual hero-growing archetype.

I've found a great time post erikson in reading through the classics. The authors of previous generations are generally so good at the job that regardless of what style their using it's amazingly well done. Pick up some Shelly, cs Lewis or even some Ray Bradbury and you'll find that they don't let you down like some other that are younger/newer authors.

[Illuvatar81]

P.S.

Can't believe I didn't think of Dan Simmons either, his ilium/olympos novels are fantastic and not in the hero-growth vein. I haven't read the other books by him but those two are amazing.

[WinterPhoenix]

I have only read GotM and most of DH thus far so I imagine I am somewhat ignorant of a heap-load of further character development that renders my opinion on this matter moot, however, I would argue that within the context of GotM that Sorry/Apsalar at least does fit many of the aspects of the trope being discussed, at least from a purely character based point of view. It is in the execution and writing style that the trope is so successfully subverted. Consider that Sorry is a character of an utterly ignominious nature, her work is menial and seeing as it is also familial it earns her no pay, rather it is a existence of drudgery, working for the roof over her head. Suddenly she is thrust headlong into the forefront of events she could not possibly understand and though she is possessed and therefore we cannot see the skills she shows as personal growth the mere fact of her possession entails a growth she must accept post-possession. In point of fact by the events of book 2 - that I have read thus far - she has grown to a jarring degree (I hope that, that brief mention isn't against the rules of this sub-forum, I apologize if it is) in terms of the way her character is writ. From a purely character based point of view she is a character of utter unimportance, suddenly endowed with plot-shaping importance. It's the execution of the character that differs most considerably, while she possesses the characteristics inherent within other 'trope characters' SE doesn't spoon feed the reader the elements of personal growth, whereby we see her undergo her own '12 labours', come a realisation of her own previous naivete and then proceed to effect change for good or evil. At least from my reading so far SE's method of character build is far more profound and subtle.

On top of that, it is clear that while Sorry exhibits the 'farm-boy' characteristics of other trope-fulfilling characters, she does not necessarily engender the heroic turn, it seems to me at least that SE for the most part leaves the job of labeling 'Hero' and 'Villain', 'Good' and 'Evil' almost entirely down to the reader by creating a world as grey as our own and providing the salient facts on a drip. Reading GotM I never once felt like I was in possession of all the facts, and even by novels end characters I would safely label either way were at a premium - I'd say Hairlock and Raest were two examples of characters I safely deemed as villains for example - and I personally feel that this is what makes me as a reader feel like I am also undergoing a journey worth taking.

This post has been edited by WinterPhoenix: 24 October 2014 - 02:12 AM

[Andorion]

WinterPhoenix, on 24 October 2014 - 01:58 AM, said:

I have only read GotM and most of DH thus far so I imagine I am somewhat ignorant of a heap-load of further character development that renders my opinion on this matter moot, however, I would argue that within the context of GotM that Sorry/Apsalar at least does fit many of the aspects of the trope being discussed, at least from a purely character based point of view. It is the execution and writing the style that the trope is so successfully subverted. Consider that Sorry is a character of an utterly ignominious nature, her work is menial and seeing as it is also familial it earns her no pay, rather it is a existence of drudgery, working for the roof over her head. Suddenly she is thrust headlong into the forefront of events she could not possibly understand and though she is possessed and therefore we cannot see the skills she shows as personal growth the mere fact of her possession entails a growth she must accept post-possession. In point of fact by the events of book 2 - that I have read thus far - she has grown to a jarring degree (I hope that, that brief mention isn't against the rules of this sub-forum, I apologize if it is) in terms of the way her character is writ. From a purely character based point of view she is a character of utter unimportance, suddenly endowed with plot-shaping importance. It's the execution of the character that differs most considerably, while she possesses the characteristics inherent within other 'trope characters' SE doesn't spoon feed the reader the elements of personal growth, whereby we see her undergo her own '12 labours', come a realisation of her own previous naivete and then proceed to effect change for good or evil. At least from my reading so far SE's method of character build is far more profound and subtle.

On top of that, it is clear that while Sorry exhibits the 'farm-boy' characteristics of other trope-fulfilling characters, she does not necessarily engender the heroic turn, it seems to me at least that SE for the most part leaves the job of labeling 'Hero' and 'Villain', 'Good' and 'Evil' almost entirely down to the reader by creating a world as grey as our own and providing the salient facts on a drip. Reading GotM I never once felt like I was in possession of all the facts, and even by novels end characters I would safely label either way were at a premium - I'd say Hairlock and Raest were two examples of characters I safely deemed as villains for example - and I personally feel that this is what makes me as a reader feel like I am also undergoing a journey worth taking.

Very nicely argued, and I think you will find the rest of the books rewarding. In the context of GotM what did you think of Crokus?

[WinterPhoenix]

Crokus seemed to me to be a thief who comes to a forced realisation that being a thief isn't all he can be, so where Apsalar lacks what I referred to above as 'the realisation of her own naivete' it seems to me that this is the anchor of Crokus' character development in the first novel. Two defining moments being his crush on the noble daughter and his discovering that his uncle Mammot was so much more than he seemed to be. Where Apsalar is the 'farm-boy' Crokus - at least in the context of GotM - seems as though he could be the hero in the making, growing out of a personality where he puts himself first as he is forced to see the world for what it is. Heck after Cotillion is forced to give up possession of Sorry/Apsalar, Crokus even has his own damsel for awhile

[Andorion]

WinterPhoenix, on 24 October 2014 - 02:26 AM, said:

Crokus seemed to me to be a thief who comes to a forced realisation that being a thief isn't all he can be, so where Apsalar lacks what I referred to above as 'the realisation of her own naivete' it seems to me that this is the anchor of Crokus' character development in the first novel. Two defining moments being his crush on the noble daughter and his discovering that his uncle Mammot was so much more than he seemed to be. Where Apsalar is the 'farm-boy' Crokus - at least in the context of GotM - seems as though he could be the hero in the making, growing out of a personality where he puts himself first as he is forced to see the world for what it is. Heck after Cotillion is forced to give up possession of Sorry/Apsalar, Crokus even has his own damsel for awhile

Yep. Now remember this when you read the rest of the books!

When I first started reading GotM, knowing nothing of SE or Malazan, I thought Ganoes Paran was the Farm Boy, and the first two chapters did fit a modified version of the trope. Then it all went awry.

[WinterPhoenix]

From that knowing comment I am now certain I am far from the mark, I'll be completely ready fro Crokus to become Sauron, or at least the MBotF equivalent

Yeah, I also feel that in terms of his origin Ganoes does seem to fit a modified version like you say, but as you also say his character development veers far from that course rather fast.