[Korbas]

Demelain, on 09 May 2014 - 09:30 PM, said:

my second is with the white fox
Lastly have I attempted to speak to fiery vox.

box box box box box

Fiery Vox. Or Anthras?

[Karatallid]

Korvalain, on 09 May 2014 - 05:13 PM, said:

Hentos Ilm, on 09 May 2014 - 11:55 AM, said:

Korvalain, on 09 May 2014 - 10:21 AM, said:

Putting aside Hentos for a moment, we have a live Magic contract. We have to deal with it somehow.

I would suggest based on the already aired suggestion that we do indeed split the thread into two groups. That we place Demelain in one group. That we hold Demelain in that group for the remainder of the game. If he is scum he cannot NK and still has to use 4 actions a night giving a lifespan of 4 nights (past endgame I'm sure.)

Or, put all the most suspicious alts in there and we not lynch in the other half of thread and wait to see who comes out alive. Demelain has 3 BPs a night so will be the only survivor if other scum are in there. We can then drop the wall and lynch Demelain.

What do people think of curtaining a potential scum off from all NA activity?

For the tactic I highlighted above,

Vote Hentos Ilm

Quote

Furthermore, you may not reveal your registration order on-thread.

Ah, there we go again.
I am afraid that you didn't really think this all through. Either you're having good intentions and/or you didn't like I turned the lynch around yesterday, or you're scum and trying to rob town of an asset.


To counter the argument that I had the vig:

I didn't hold a contract day 1.
First and foremost, I lacked play time and thus, using any contract I obtained responsibly was going to be hard.
You may see some proof of that in a discussion I had earlier (I think with you, Korvalain or maybe Demelain) where I said I ought to have picked up Shapeshifter because the unused votes would have gravitated towards me and might have made sure we had a lynch day 1, but oh well. You don't need to believe my word on this.

Another potential proof (but I will leave that to those who diligently counted contracts to find out whether that was true or not) could be that the registered number of contracts may not have matched the number of players on day 1. But let's discount that either, yeah, and let's assume theoretically that scum were to own Chronokinesis.

That means that this person had to drop a scum contract day 2 (you named an option), and then pick up Chronokinesis, a contract that has no obvious use for scum that I can see. One potential use, to turn back a scum murdering another scum, is unlikely: the OP states expressedly that all scum know each other and anyway, it would get that person lynched immediately because there would be a CF saying he's scum.
Rewinding night results also wouldn't undo town getting scum on find results, either, which is the potential second use.

Let's now hypothetically assume that I am scum player and, somehow, I am holding Chronokinesis. I am not allowed to confirm or deny, so let's keep this hypothetical.

First, I'd need a motive to actually drop the contract I held and pick up Chronokinesis.

I guess there is one: Ven made a "case" on me early day 2, if I was around then, I could have seen it coming and indeed plan to use Chronokinesis to warrant my own safety.

However: at the start of day 2, Ven was scummy and there was a case on I think Anthras. I'd be target #3 only. The question is, is being threat number 3 worth changing plans for?).

Then: the only player scum could bring back, was town. Thus, if the train wouldn't develop on me and I am indeed scum, I'd waste a contract or hinder scum victory condition, as well as dropping a contract that might have been picked up by town instead, hindering my killing ability. One might say that if I was scum, holding Chrono AND didn't need to use it to look like town, I could use it on myself, relinquish the contract and then pick up Magic, which is decent reasoning, I guess.

However, the train does develop on me and I hypothetically need to bring back someone to look like I am town. Here we really get into wifom territory, but I'd say that the person brought back is advantageous to town, not only short term. The player brought back was Okaros, a player with an information gathering contract on day 1 according to his CF. He comes back with that info, and as a long term benefit to town, that contract is re-opened and available.
Bringing Okaros back is thus a risk compared to bringing back Inane Babble. YMMV whether or not that was an acceptable risk - complete wifom, anyway.

Using the Chronokinesis on Okaros also means that the holder of the Chronokinesis contract cannot relinquish it today.
Why not? Because the clause for release states that the holder has to use it on themselves.
Hence, the holder of the contract is stuck with it at the very least until tonight.

Since we have another killed player in Ryllandaras AND the contract is entirely safe to be used still according to the Renumeration Clause (we're currently at a score of 3, a use tonight would be a score of 5, well below the score of 10 that would lead to a suicide), a town user of the contract would be obliged to try and bring back Ryllandaras, once again, forestalling the owner of the contract from relinquishing it.

As such, I'd say the earliest time to lynch the suspected holder of Chronokinesis is tomorrow, dependant on the following:
IF Ryllandaras isn't returned and/or the contract of Chronokinesis is dropped.

Until then, any vote on the suspected holder of Chronokinesis has to be considered wasted, because Chronokinesis being used would benefit town (as the only killed person yesterday was town) AND even if the holder is scum, it is a scum who is guaranteed to not be killing town.
The consequence is also that if the suspected holder uses the ability on himself and relinquishes the contract, he is not playing in town's best interest either and thus warrants a lynch.

All of the above combined suggest that the contract is a dead end for scum to hold.
If you do feel that the holder of Chronokinesis is scum, vote him the day after he doesn't bring back town or on the day the contract is released.

Before that, you're trying to rob town of a very important asset.

I see your point, thank you.

Karatallid, on 09 May 2014 - 12:14 PM, said:

Just a thought (and this is why mechanics discussion is problematic):


Let's say that players 1-8 had submitted provisionals. In what order does PS update the taken contracts on-thread?


See...in order to PREVENT abuse of that function, PS could just as easily have updated random numbers between player one and player x, as long as all players between them have submitted, right? This would render any speculation on what is essentially meta timing irrelevant. And yet we're powering on ahead as if the logic is infallible. It's a nice assumption to make that this stuff is done in real-time is therefore beneficial to Town, but aside from #1 and #2, we have no real guarantee as to which ones ARE scum, and even within #1-5, we have no idea of the precise order, assuming that the first updated refer to players one through five in the order, not just a selection of five after provisionals in excess of five have been submitted!

My problem with that is that you can select from the available list - anyone who hadn't drawn up provisionals would get to see what contracts are available. Your underlined sentence makes no sense. Why have an order if it is not followed?

And if they apply for a contract provisional'd by someone higher than them in the list...they fail. Exactly like it works when comparing two player's provisionals.

The order is followed, it's just not necessarily adhered to in updates to the thread. D'rek strongly encouraged provisionals. Everyone should be making submissions and anyone who doesn't either misses out or does the smart thing and provides a sorted list. Any contracts taken are out of the option, any ones not taken (on-thread) are in said list and if they are taken by someone with a higher priority they don't get them. Simple. It doesn't matter when said higher priority person takes them, after all.

Quote

Karatallid, on 09 May 2014 - 01:05 PM, said:

Wait a second.

Demelain's got Magic. Great. (Though I might add; Spectral Contract Manipulation is going to be one BITCH of a power. I know the series, and between the title of the power, the remuneration, and it's status, I'm willing to bet money that it is ridiculously useful - it's like D'rek has combined the remuneration of Havoc (the MOST devastating Contractor) with the powers of Bai and/or Izanami....and that is like holy fucking shit, in game terms.)

More importantly: Okaros is CI'ing Ven. Who has PI'd Hentos, and "trusts" Okaros. Are you guys sure that scum isn't playing out in the open?

Can you explain for those of us who don't know the series what SCM could be?

OK...not sure it will help much, but:

There were a couple of characters with extra useful powers in the series, regarding contracts.

1st: Bai. While most commonly used as electric shocks, her power was actually more akin to manipulation of quanta. Therefore she was able to *create* Contractors, essentially...or take their power away. She was also able to use her power to do some spoilery stuff involving what amounts to binding her soul to someone else, and also do cool things like nullify "anti-Gate" particles. Though that last bit probably has zero bearing on the game. Basically, she was imba-hax and ultra-powerful.

2nd: Izanami: Super-powerful spectre who could more or less one-shot any Contractor she liked by stealing their...soul, probably. Or Contract. Whatever. Basically she could remotely take over any Contractor's power and turn it on themselves. Yeah. Possibly the harbinger of an Apocalypse. Ultra-powerful.


The character who had "Drinks the Blood of Children" as a remuneration could do something a bit different - namely, they could cause what amounts to catastrophic, earthquake-level damage, by creating hard vacuums. In short, she was probably the Contractor with the most deadly ability, for the sheer volume of people she could kill. Also has a nasty reputation because, well...baby blood.

Quote

Karatallid, on 09 May 2014 - 01:12 PM, said:

Venesara, on 09 May 2014 - 07:34 AM, said:

Korbas.

Karatallid, Anthras, Tholen, Dem and I

On one side.

The rest on yours. We get to lynch a scummy player and dem can clear up other scummy players because I cannot die

So, you want TWO lynches today? Or am I reading the results of having two groups wrong?

One group, of PIs would obviously not lynch. The others could lynch Dem or get NKd. Any NKs in the PIs is unlikely.

That's a huge gamble to take. Because it ends with so much potential inno death if you guess wrong. And the assumption someone makes somewhere on thread that Dem would *have* to kill scums if he is scum is wrong. Only needs to use four abilities a night, and has shitloads that are not NKs to use on his allies. Then when the Forcefield drops two nights later....bam.

[Karatallid]

Okaros, on 09 May 2014 - 04:25 PM, said:

Karatallid, on 09 May 2014 - 02:11 PM, said:

Okaros, on 09 May 2014 - 02:07 PM, said:

Karatallid, on 09 May 2014 - 01:05 PM, said:

Wait a second.

Demelain's got Magic. Great. (Though I might add; Spectral Contract Manipulation is going to be one BITCH of a power. I know the series, and between the title of the power, the remuneration, and it's status, I'm willing to bet money that it is ridiculously useful - it's like D'rek has combined the remuneration of Havoc (the MOST devastating Contractor) with the powers of Bai and/or Izanami....and that is like holy fucking shit, in game terms.)

More importantly: Okaros is CI'ing Ven. Who has PI'd Hentos, and "trusts" Okaros. Are you guys sure that scum isn't playing out in the open?

For the record, I never CI'd Ven - I said Ven was VPI, and that Hentos was PI. The only person we should consider CI'd is myself, as you've already seen my CF. But frankly, I'd bet some money that scum are not amongst the three of us, but amongst the 7 of you.

Close enough, but fair correction.

I would like your input on Ven's post RE: apparently trying to kill 4+ people in one day (split the groups; 1 lynch, Dem's vigs in one, and a lynch in the other + possible other NKs in either).

It's a plan I would have suggested had it not already been suggested. Granted it could mean 4 deaths instead of 3, if the groups were split, and the person doing the splitting was lucky to get all the scum into one group, if Demelain is NOT scum, he'll get lynched anyway, and if he IS, then he won't be lynched, but will be forced to target other scum with his ability. All in all, I don't think it's a terribly bad idea.

Mmhmm. Target scum with his FUN abilities, like heal, find, etc. Then when the barrier comes down, target town with the vigs.

Plus, it relies on getting almost all the scum on the same side of the table. Something which is a lot harder with your PI'd Ven's modkill. But moreoever, it could mean MORE than 4 deaths - who said scum couldn't have one of the other vig abilities? Or two?

[Pran Chole]

Korbas, on 09 May 2014 - 11:46 PM, said:

Pran Chole, on 09 May 2014 - 11:13 PM, said:

As for me "convincing" them I was town - I was possessed. They could read every PM in my box, including my role PM from Path-Shaper.

They tried to convince me of their own townie-hood, but that's something I know for a lie. Whoever dropped the possession contract was absolutely scum.

Absolutes in mafia?

If it was a faction game, no. But in town vs. scum, there is no real reason to have lied to me like they did. For one thing, they said they were Rhyllandaras, and Messremb. Obviously, that's not true. Rhyl didn't have the possession contract, and didn't CF as Messremb.

If they have read my role PM, and therefore know I'm innocent, why would they lie?

[Karatallid]

Path-Shaper, on 09 May 2014 - 04:21 PM, said:

Venesara, on 09 May 2014 - 04:00 PM, said:

Quick one from me. I'm away. Korvalain? The split thread thing lasts 2 days max. And that'd be a possible 2 lynched each day. It also says you can only target people in the same group with night actions. I have 3bps

Ladies, gentlemen and blood-drinking psychopaths, we have a modkill.

Blood-drinking psychopaths clearly not being a reference to SKs, but rather to Contractors in general, or a certain carmine one in particular...


Oh, that's the other thing. The Contractor who had the blood-drinking remuneration...got her power back after relinquishing it. If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say that the SCM ability could function similarly, possibly making the only player who can get said ability the SK.

[Pran Chole]

Karatallid, on 10 May 2014 - 12:40 AM, said:

Path-Shaper, on 09 May 2014 - 04:21 PM, said:

Venesara, on 09 May 2014 - 04:00 PM, said:

Quick one from me. I'm away. Korvalain? The split thread thing lasts 2 days max. And that'd be a possible 2 lynched each day. It also says you can only target people in the same group with night actions. I have 3bps

Ladies, gentlemen and blood-drinking psychopaths, we have a modkill.

Blood-drinking psychopaths clearly not being a reference to SKs, but rather to Contractors in general, or a certain carmine one in particular...


Oh, that's the other thing. The Contractor who had the blood-drinking remuneration...got her power back after relinquishing it. If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say that the SCM ability could function similarly, possibly making the only player who can get said ability the SK.

Oh, great.

[Pran Chole]

I'm disappearing, and we're getting close to timeout.

I will put him at L-1

Vote Demelain

[Korbas]

Remove Vote

[Korbas]

I'm waiting to see if he replies about the pigeons.

[Korbas]

Especially the white fox one. Since the white fox isn't saying anything about pigeons.

[Korbas]

naked player

[Korbas]

I will be around a bit longer. I'll put him back at L-1 or hammer as needed.

[Korbas]

I will say that I'm leaning towards believing Demelain is town.

[Korbas]

Korbas, on 10 May 2014 - 12:24 AM, said:

Demelain, on 09 May 2014 - 09:30 PM, said:

my second is with the white fox
Lastly have I attempted to speak to fiery vox.

box box box box box

Fiery Vox. Or Anthras?

oh. can't be Anthras. Only two vowels.

[Korbas]

Hmm. Demelain, why would you not talk to Okaros???

[Karatallid]

I need to step out. I'm not sure I'll be around for lynch.

My concerns are that, given potential scum numbers vs deaths today/tonight, we're edging very close to what is D-day.

While it makes sense to take out the potential scum with two NKs, WCS says that Dem is inno and scum can then STILL take out two people tonight. We lose three with a lynch. Because that scenario would require scum to have the remaining kill powers, scum reach parity and, barring a SK, win the game.

If we don't lynch Demelain, and he's scum, then WCS we lose four tonight, scum win the game, barring the presence of an SK.



So...in other words, Town are fucked tonight almost regardless of what happens, under WCS. We can hope for a good guard action, or something, but it's pretty marginal.

Seeing as I won't be around, I'm going to vote now. The only real hope Town has at this point is if Dem is Town and not lynched. But...fuck. That's got so many inherent problems with it. As Town, I'd never go for that power purely because going for it is going to get you jumped as scum trying to win the game - logically, only scum would go for it hoping to use it to win by pretending to be inno, because "no scum would take this power as it lights them up too much as a target" - i.e. WIFOM. If your only defence is WIFOM logic, you shouldn't have done something in the first place.

Vote Demelain

[Pran Chole]

Korbas, on 10 May 2014 - 01:15 AM, said:

Especially the white fox one. Since the white fox isn't saying anything about pigeons.

Quick check before I head to the store, I'll answer this.

He set up a communication with me, just one post, which I answered. He hasn't posted anything new since that first one.

[Pran Chole]

Karatallid, on 10 May 2014 - 01:49 AM, said:

Seeing as I won't be around, I'm going to vote now. The only real hope Town has at this point is if Dem is Town and not lynched. But...fuck. That's got so many inherent problems with it. As Town, I'd never go for that power purely because going for it is going to get you jumped as scum trying to win the game - logically, only scum would go for it hoping to use it to win by pretending to be inno, because "no scum would take this power as it lights them up too much as a target" - i.e. WIFOM. If your only defence is WIFOM logic, you shouldn't have done something in the first place.

This is exactly my feeling.

If Dem is inno, after the game I would like to hear what they thought they were doing. Our collective reaction to this is really not hard to anticipate.

And with that, I'm out for a couple of hours at least.

[Korbas]

Path-Shaper, on 09 May 2014 - 02:37 PM, said:

It is Day 3. 14 hours and 31 minutes remain.

10 players are alive: Anthras, Demelain, Hentos Ilm, Karatallid, Korbas, Korvalain, Okaros, Pran Chole, Tholen, Venesara

6 votes to lynch. 5 votes to go to night.


2 votes for Demelain (Korbas, Okaros)
1 vote for Hentos Ilm (Korvalain)

Unofficial of course.

It is Day 3. around 2 hours and 45 minutes remain.

9 players are alive: Anthras, Demelain, Hentos Ilm, Karatallid, Korbas, Korvalain, Okaros, Pran Chole, Tholen, Venesara

6 votes to lynch. 5 votes to go to night.


5 votes for Demelain (Okaros, Anthras, Hentos Ilm, Pran Chole, Karatallid)
1 vote for Hentos Ilm (Korvalain)

Players not voted: Demelain, Korbas, Tholen

[Korbas]

Pran Chole, on 10 May 2014 - 02:02 AM, said:

Korbas, on 10 May 2014 - 01:15 AM, said:

Especially the white fox one. Since the white fox isn't saying anything about pigeons.

Quick check before I head to the store, I'll answer this.

He set up a communication with me, just one post, which I answered. He hasn't posted anything new since that first one.

And?? What was said?