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The Russia Politics and War in Ukraine Thread

#61 User is offline   Mentalist 

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Posted 15 March 2014 - 03:13 AM

View PostMorgoth, on 01 March 2014 - 08:27 AM, said:

The US is by no means dependent on Russian oil and gas. Their main trade partner in that area is Canada. Incidentally, with the development of the shale gas industry the US is on a fast track to become a net exporter of gas. Russia on the other hand is entirely dependent on their oil and gas exports to finance themselves. As of now the Russian budget is balanced at an oil price of more than a hundred and twenty dollars pr barrel, compared to thirty dollars or so in 2005.

Even Europe is less dependent on Russian oil and gas than one is often lead to believe. The market holds more than enough to supply the continent, and you can be certain that OPEC would increase production to counteract some of the inevitable cost increase. Norway would certainly benefit substantially. The country that would suffer is Ukraine, as they are entirely dependent (as of now at least) on access to Russian gas at below market price.


I've noticed that I skimmed past this response before. This isn't actually technically correct.

Ukraine has ample supplies of its own natural gas to keep its populace supplied.

What actually is dependant on Russian gas is the heavy industry of The East, which is largely privately owned by oligarchs. who should, by all rights, be paying for it, or invest in reducing their consumption by modernizing.

However, due to the symbiotic relationship between big vcapital and criminal syndicates/political parties in Ukraine, as well as a fairly loyal stance towards Russia if UA's leadership 1991-2004, as well as 2010-2013, instead big capital lived off the state-bought gas acquired for cheap, sold to the oligarchs by the govt monopolist Naftogas even cheaper, and the resulting profits were funneled offshore.
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View PostJump Around, on 23 October 2011 - 11:04 AM, said:

And I want to state that Ment has out-weaseled me by far in this game.
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#62 User is offline   Mentalist 

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 02:26 AM

View PostBriar King, on 16 March 2014 - 09:43 PM, said:

It's looking like the vote to secede has won by a landslide. Idk wtf to actually think about that though.

I'll just toss this Stalin quote in here to answer that
"It doesn't matter how the people vote. It matters who counts the votes"

I dunno. The response of Uki govt doesn't fill me with much confidence, but there hasn't been THAT much activity out East.

Gotta see what kind of sanctions will there actually be. Also, what will be Russia's next move, and how exactly doi they plan to "run" Crimea, given it gets pretty much everything off the mainland.
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View PostJump Around, on 23 October 2011 - 11:04 AM, said:

And I want to state that Ment has out-weaseled me by far in this game.
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Posted 17 March 2014 - 02:29 AM

Thank you for those highly, highly informative and useful posts.

Stay safe and keep the sense of humor alive, it will genuinely help people feel more at ease and less willing tobe combative or hardline on a position.
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#64 User is offline   Nicodimas 

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 04:53 AM

oh my here is a good article..on the geopolitics of what is going on with the current USD collapse. I know no-one gets what I am saying, but this is ALL falling action on the dollar collapsing..it gets way way worse from here.. i really wish you all the best and hope you prepare.



http://www.lewrockwe...n-coup-in-kiev/

start here:

AMERICA IS BROKE. enter this into your head and then think..they have there the most armed and stocked military on earth.... and we are fanatically... idk how people don't see the problem.

This post has been edited by Nicodimas: 17 March 2014 - 04:58 AM

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 10:09 AM

View PostMentalist, on 17 March 2014 - 02:26 AM, said:

Gotta see what kind of sanctions will there actually be. Also, what will be Russia's next move, and how exactly doi they plan to "run" Crimea, given it gets pretty much everything off the mainland.
Crimea is effectively cut off by land from Russia, but the sea crossing at Kerch is very short. Maybe if Russia maintains its hold on the region in the next couple of decades they'll bridge the strait too (this has already been proposed - http://en.wikipedia....h_Strait_Bridge).
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#66 User is offline   Mentalist 

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 02:20 PM

View PostD, on 17 March 2014 - 10:09 AM, said:

View PostMentalist, on 17 March 2014 - 02:26 AM, said:

Gotta see what kind of sanctions will there actually be. Also, what will be Russia's next move, and how exactly doi they plan to "run" Crimea, given it gets pretty much everything off the mainland.
Crimea is effectively cut off by land from Russia, but the sea crossing at Kerch is very short. Maybe if Russia maintains its hold on the region in the next couple of decades they'll bridge the strait too (this has already been proposed - http://en.wikipedia....h_Strait_Bridge).


That's the proposed solution. Except that bridge will take some time to build, and that doesn't really solve the water problem, as in: CRIMEA HAS NO FRESH WATER SOURCES.

So yeah, we'll see. UA's declared beginning of mobilization. All the attention's shifting East
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View PostJump Around, on 23 October 2011 - 11:04 AM, said:

And I want to state that Ment has out-weaseled me by far in this game.
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#67 User is offline   cerveza_fiesta 

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 05:16 PM

View PostMentalist, on 14 March 2014 - 09:12 PM, said:

Huge ass post #1



View PostMentalist, on 15 March 2014 - 12:47 AM, said:

View PostHoosierDaddy, on 14 March 2014 - 10:03 PM, said:

If given a choice to join NATO but on the prerequisite that Ukraine stays non-nuclear, which opinion do you think would prevail? Do you think Ukraine will want to join NATO at all?


Huge ass post #2


Rep!! Thank you for injecting some perspective into a thread that was quickly degenerating into amateur (and a bit silly) analysis of military capabilities.


I do have another question for you - Further to Hoosier's. Is there a third option for Ukraine? You mention the impossible situation of being "unnecessary competition for the west" and the vulnerability of your agricultural resources. Is there a "go it alone" option where Ukraine concentrates on what's best for itself and adopts an island-nation type of approach? Such a path would undoubtedly see peoples' standard of living change, but is the national unity sentiment strong enough to motivate people in a back-to-the-land type of direction?
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#68 User is offline   Mentalist 

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 02:55 AM

View Postcerveza_fiesta, on 17 March 2014 - 05:16 PM, said:

View PostMentalist, on 14 March 2014 - 09:12 PM, said:

Huge ass post #1



View PostMentalist, on 15 March 2014 - 12:47 AM, said:

View PostHoosierDaddy, on 14 March 2014 - 10:03 PM, said:

If given a choice to join NATO but on the prerequisite that Ukraine stays non-nuclear, which opinion do you think would prevail? Do you think Ukraine will want to join NATO at all?


Huge ass post #2


Rep!! Thank you for injecting some perspective into a thread that was quickly degenerating into amateur (and a bit silly) analysis of military capabilities.


I do have another question for you - Further to Hoosier's. Is there a third option for Ukraine? You mention the impossible situation of being "unnecessary competition for the west" and the vulnerability of your agricultural resources. Is there a "go it alone" option where Ukraine concentrates on what's best for itself and adopts an island-nation type of approach? Such a path would undoubtedly see peoples' standard of living change, but is the national unity sentiment strong enough to motivate people in a back-to-the-land type of direction?

In terms of having the entire country become farmers-no, I don't see that. The Revolution was essentially driven by small and mid-size businessmen, who were completely fed up with the all-pervasive govt corruption.

So I doubt they'll turn to that. in terms of "island nation", that's the preferred idea for many. The issue is the large amt of debt. Dealing with it requires assistance.

Also an issue is thr leadership. Depends on whether or not new faces arrive in politics for the elections this year. The current crop's not all that concerned about the country's well being as opposed to their own. In fact, the prospect of a war with Russia is making them act far more patriotic than they might've otherwise, lol. It remains to be seen if they are up to the challenge.
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View PostJump Around, on 23 October 2011 - 11:04 AM, said:

And I want to state that Ment has out-weaseled me by far in this game.
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#69 User is offline   Ruthan Good 

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 10:19 PM

View PostBriar King, on 27 March 2014 - 12:02 AM, said:

So what are people's thoughts still in Crimea?

I just saw that Russia is condoucting "excersizes" near the border of several other parts of Ukraine.


Well to be fair, the exercises have been conducted for over a month now. Just an FYI.

This post has been edited by Ruthan Good: 31 March 2014 - 10:19 PM

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#70 User is offline   Mentalist 

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 03:26 AM

View PostBriar King, on 27 March 2014 - 12:02 AM, said:

So what are people's thoughts still in Crimea?

I just saw that Russia is conducting "exercises" near the border of several other parts of Ukraine.


According to Russian media, all's fine and dandy, everyone's happy as a clam.

According to Uki media, there are incoming gasoline shortages, due to the introduction of the ruble prices on everything skyrocketed (not helped by the overall scarcity, since most food and household items and consumer goods come from the mainland and there are large holdups on the new "border"). Pensioners received the Ukrainian value-equivalent of their pension in rubles, rather than Russian-standard pension they were expecting. Govt services aren't getting paid since the mainland govt has no way to transfer money from the treasury to Crimea. Biggest UA bank has frozen all Crimeans' accounts, unless they access its services on the mainland. EU has declared that Crimeans with Russian passports will be denied visas, unless they apply in Kyiv or Moscow. International flights to Simferopol' have been cancelled, it only services flights to Moscow now. Medvedev's visit yielded many promises, including "solving the dependency on the mainland for freshwater by building factories to process sea water"--an incredibly costly long-term solution. There's also complete legal chaos, as Crimea tries to implement Russian laws. UA has blocked Crimea all access to land registry, so it's impossible to do any real estate transactions atm. There's also popular fearmongering that crimeans getting Russian passports have Siberian adresses listed, and rumours of Chechens flooding in and taking over real estate, but that's most likely pushing it.

UA's military has been overrun and is in the process of slow evacuation (those units that haven't switched sides, that is. Even among those, some already expressed a desire to re-enlist. whether they'll be accepted remains to be seen). There are also talks of Russia allowing UA's military to take back its materiel, including the captured navy ships, but despite the ministry's upbeat reports, that remains an issue to resolve.

On the mainland, things are settling down somewhat. presidential campaign has begun, and the govt has declared a witchhunt against the Right Sector. RS demands the resignation of the Minister of Interior (police), citing his incompetence and participation in ongoing corruption in the police force. Situation made all the more complicated since Right Sector has its own candidate for president, while the minister in question is from the party of a formerly jailed Prime minister and Yanukovych's opposition in the last pres election. With a few relatively "clean", somewhat fresh faces being overshadowed by "Brand" candidates, who all have roots in the oligarchic corrupt political establishment, with just under 2 months to go, its really hard to say how the election will play out.

At the same time, the Cabinet is slaving away in an attempt to secure that sweet, sweet IMF funding, making "unpopular decisions", but somehow completely foregoing making the oligarchic "big business" carry the brunt of the austerity policies. How well that will sink in also remains to be seen.

While the Cabinet and Rada of cadre politicians are trying to usurp the Revolution for their own needs, civil society groups are hard at work lobbying anti corruption and transparency legislature in an attempt to codify the Constituion section that reads "the only source of governance in Ukraine are the Ukrainian People", by installing various mechanisms of civic oversight over pretty much everything govt officials may do.

Out East, every weekend there are pro-Russian rallies but intensity seems to be dying down as it becomes obvious no immediate "liberation" is forthcoming. The fact that such activiies continue especially on the Donbass are an indication that the local "elites" (oligarchs) are still sewriously considerign tossing their lot with Putin. which is worrying, obviously, given how weak the influence of Kyiv is out there. Nonetheless, the SBU (security service) continuously reports that it is apprehending separatist ringleaders and Russian diversants, so it remains to be seen if this separatism can turn into any serious threat.

On the international stage, Russia seemingly backed off the idea of trying to "liberate" the South and East of Ukraine. The UN's General Assembly vote upholding UA's territorial integrity and condemning the annexation sure seems convincing-100 yes v 11 no, but the devil's in the details-in particular in those who abstained-the Rest of BRIC, South Africa, Argentina, Egypt--all the big "middle powers". Their indication that they refuse to cease doing business with Russia means the West's declared plan to submit Russia to isolation punishment won't be a resounding success. nonetheless, the West is doing its part- NATO taking an aggressive stance, and EU starting serious talks with USA re: using US' shale gas to replace Russian gas.

Russia's word of the week is "federalization"--their new intent is to impose a federal constitution onto UA, while making Russian an official second language. They feel that with establishment of local rulers in the East they will have stronger leverage, since "federalization" is seen as shortcut for "legitimate excuse for secession". This plan isn't getting much traction as of yet, though it's the main platform of the Party of Regions' (Yanukovych's former party) candidate for the pres. election.

All in all, both worldwide and in UA itself, the situation's pretty unpredictable. A lot may depend on Russia's whims, but also in UA itself, due to the pres. campaign public sentiments can swing every which way, so it's difficult to predict who will become a total dissapointment, who may gain political capital, and who is bound to remain an outsider. And whether or not the pres election (which is just a prelude for a parliamentary one to be held in the fall) will actually reflect the Maydan slogan of "Government, Reloaded", or we are to expect further unrest.
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View PostJump Around, on 23 October 2011 - 11:04 AM, said:

And I want to state that Ment has out-weaseled me by far in this game.
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#71 User is offline   Garak 

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 05:20 AM

Let's hope the election go better than the cynic in me says they will (because I can see the brand names getting "elected" sadly). After Romania revolted and got rid of Ceausescu and the Soviet leash, the people who got "elected" to government were all former members of the communist party, the Securitate or similarly well connected. As a result our government is still so corrupt it's reached cartoon villain levels and anything they say is met with extreme skepticism.
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#72 User is offline   Mentalist 

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 04:18 PM

View PostGarak, on 03 April 2014 - 05:20 AM, said:

Let's hope the election go better than the cynic in me says they will (because I can see the brand names getting "elected" sadly). After Romania revolted and got rid of Ceausescu and the Soviet leash, the people who got "elected" to government were all former members of the communist party, the Securitate or similarly well connected. As a result our government is still so corrupt it's reached cartoon villain levels and anything they say is met with extreme skepticism.


Well, the Revolution happened because our very own criminal-turned cartoon villain president decided it'd be neat to turn Ukraine into Belarus-2. So I remain hopeful this time things may turn out differently.
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View PostJump Around, on 23 October 2011 - 11:04 AM, said:

And I want to state that Ment has out-weaseled me by far in this game.
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#73 User is offline   Garak 

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 07:52 PM

Well, I've been following the news about the situation in Ukraine with interest - I'm hoping things work out in Ukraine's favor.
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#74 User is offline   Mentalist 

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 02:01 AM

View PostBriar King, on 03 April 2014 - 11:17 PM, said:

So is it still to early to know if Crimea is gonna be a country itself or a part of Russia?

It's already "a part of Russia", though almost nobody recognizes that.

Afaik, they have no aspirations of being a separate country, given the terrible economic situation.
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View PostJump Around, on 23 October 2011 - 11:04 AM, said:

And I want to state that Ment has out-weaseled me by far in this game.
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Posted 04 April 2014 - 03:28 AM

My father, though a great man in many respects, has one particular failing: he watches a ton of Fox News. This usually means he's got a very skewed view on things (even if most media sources aren't particularly unbiased or good at getting the truth of reality across to their consumers/audience, Fox News is abysmal in these regards and is actively toxic in most ways).

His take on the Crimea, pieced together through scattered conversations, is that the Crimea is populated by Russians and if they want to go join Russia, go ahead. No war, no helping Ukraine keep its territory intact and so on.

This is a position basically ignores the reasons why there's such a large Russian population there, the history of the region and so on. However, I cannot say for sure that it isn't a position widely adopted by many who watch Fox News and want to avoid war (which he usually does).
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#76 User is offline   Garak 

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 05:13 AM

I get my international news mostly from BBC - taken with a grain of salt of course because I don't trust any news agency 100%. Sadly the local news sources don't say too much about international stuff, they seem pretty fixed on telling us how many car accidents, murders, robberies and so on and so forth happened in a day.
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Posted 04 April 2014 - 06:51 AM

Honestly, there's not a whole lot a person can do against four hundred years plus of history and geopolitics. The alternative is basically to dedicate ones life to it, which most of us are sanely not wanting to do.

Thus we focus on what we can, ourselves, family, friends, local environment, while trying to figure out why things are the way they are - seeing the true history and accepting the painful past - and then living life.

I'm strongly reminded of Ta-Nehisi Coates in his most recent writings about confronting racism throughout history and in his own experiences as a black man in the USA. It's powerful stuff he's writing and many people just don't get it, he's not giving up, he's seeing what really happened and what little control he has over it without his voice being heard.
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#78 User is offline   Mentalist 

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 01:28 PM

View Postamphibian, on 04 April 2014 - 03:28 AM, said:

My father, though a great man in many respects, has one particular failing: he watches a ton of Fox News. This usually means he's got a very skewed view on things (even if most media sources aren't particularly unbiased or good at getting the truth of reality across to their consumers/audience, Fox News is abysmal in these regards and is actively toxic in most ways).

His take on the Crimea, pieced together through scattered conversations, is that the Crimea is populated by Russians and if they want to go join Russia, go ahead. No war, no helping Ukraine keep its territory intact and so on.

This is a position basically ignores the reasons why there's such a large Russian population there, the history of the region and so on. However, I cannot say for sure that it isn't a position widely adopted by many who watch Fox News and want to avoid war (which he usually does).



View Postamphibian, on 04 April 2014 - 06:51 AM, said:

Honestly, there's not a whole lot a person can do against four hundred years plus of history and geopolitics. The alternative is basically to dedicate ones life to it, which most of us are sanely not wanting to do.

Thus we focus on what we can, ourselves, family, friends, local environment, while trying to figure out why things are the way they are - seeing the true history and accepting the painful past - and then living life.

I'm strongly reminded of Ta-Nehisi Coates in his most recent writings about confronting racism throughout history and in his own experiences as a black man in the USA. It's powerful stuff he's writing and many people just don't get it, he's not giving up, he's seeing what really happened and what little control he has over it without his voice being heard.

Ugh. Four hundred years? try "80". That's about how long Russians were an overwhelming majority--following a total deportation of Tatars and forced resettlement of thousands of Russians into Crimea. aside from those forcefully settled there, the rest are retired Soviet apparatchiki, or their descendants who wanted to retire in a nice warm spot.

In many ways this situation's similar to Kosovo (and no, I didn't really agree with how THAT was handled either). Except there was no ethnic cleansing involved, and the only "repressions" existed on Russian State TV that Crimeans watched religiously, and whose truth content is about on par with Fox News.
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View PostJump Around, on 23 October 2011 - 11:04 AM, said:

And I want to state that Ment has out-weaseled me by far in this game.
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#79 User is offline   amphibian 

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 04:33 PM

I was under the impression that the Russians had been meddling in the Crimea since the time of Peter the Great or even before. That's why I said 400 years.

Is that wrong?
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#80 User is offline   Morgoth 

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 06:03 PM

Crimea belonged to the Ottoman empire until... Late 18th century?
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