[Mentalist]

Terez, on 21 July 2014 - 09:59 PM, said:

Many apologies for the triple post, but I was wondering what Mentalist would think of this article:

http://www.thenation...ievs-atrocities

Usually I find The Nation to be an excellent publication which sheds light on issues often neglected in our political media, but after having read Mentalist's posts in this thread, I was able to pick out many things in the article which were presented misleadingly and out of context. For example, he refers repeatedly to the "Odessa massacre" as if it were an isolated event, and makes no mention of the fact that it started with a peaceful unity march being attacked by separatists. I checked the Wikipedia page, which appears to be well-sourced, and it matches pretty well with what Mentalist wrote at the time of the event. There are several other examples. The comments seem divided between Russians praising the writer for telling the truth and Ukrainians shaming him for writing such a propaganda piece and suggesting he was paid by the Russians to write it.

Read the article. My impression: the article's fishing for a story.

Yes, the ultra-right played a significant part in the Revolution. The Right Sector was among those that launched the violent streetfighting on Hryshevsky St in January--though they weren't the ones who launched the confrontation with Berkut-this was done by the AutoMaidan leaders, who got sick of the Politician's promises and demanded they be allowed to picket the Parliament. When they were blocked, a scuffle broke out, and Right Sector were the ones who escalated it--there is no question of this, BUT

-it's important to realize they reflected the wishes of most people in Kyyiv-they were just the ones most willing to act. While a few hundred were involved in the whole Molotov-tossing standoff, the people who were simply cheering them on, or drumming, or preparing/bringing supplies numbered several thousand, despitet eh extreme cold temperature in those days and the obvious risks associated with being there.

-they lack the resources to become well-known, and their demonizing by Russian media makes them a perpetual outsider electorally. And we can't honestly talk about an RS-led coup, because Ukis have this annoying habit of not recognising ANY dictator-like government. And we lack the Russian awe to the instituion of government, so if we REALLY don't like a government, we just topple it. And RS knows this. So they won't tryi it, because then the 1 percent of support they have now will turn into 0,001 percent, and the remainder of that original 1% will be at the helm of those oppsing their coup attempt.

Another point about the RS: Maidan self-Defence was composed of about 25 Hundreds. Of these, RS and Svoboda composed maybe 300. The rest were volunteers-middle class Kyyvites and people from other cities who joined in, members of cossack groups, Afghanistan veterans, etc.

Tyahnybok--yeah, he's a big question. Svoboda are what I call-Stone Age nationalists. I disagree with a lot of what they do, but they ARE the most ukrainian-minded party in the spectrum who's not selling out to anyone (obviously). It's important to note they lost a lot of their political weight with their electorate PRECISELY because they were so meek and peace-minded during the Revolution.

I will totally call out the author on her "glorifying Nazi collaborators" bit--Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA), which was a military arm of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists led by Stepan Bandera (OUN- was recognized by Nuremberg trials as World War 2 combattants , despite all of Soviet pressure to get them declared as Nazi collaborators. So the author can shove that argument.

I also love how the author completely avoids the whole Crimea issue, it's not mentioned at all. He didn't think it might have something to do with anti-Russian moods in UA? Annexation of a huge chunk of territory tends to make people upset, you know.

Re: Odessa. I've written about this before. Yes, it's a terrible tragedy. Do I grieve? yes. Do I condemn it? not wholeheartedly. And I probably never will. Because while those that died were misguided almost-bystanders, those who holed up on the top floors and survived, those who were shooting at people who were trying to help those trapped below them to get out--they were armed and intenting tto kill those who didn't believe as they did that Odessa should join Crimea in becoming part of Russia. My only regret--that those who survived and those women, children and other misguided people who found their death in that building couldn't have been swapped around.

I will never condemn those bystanders who jumped in to defend the pro-Ukrainian rally, those who made Molotovs and crushed cobblestones. They are patriots and it thanks to them that bar the one tragic, but single violent episode, Odessa is free from the separatist scourge.

RE: "peaceful protests in the East" and the comparisons with admin takeovers in Western Ukraine. I have stated, on numerous occasions, that I fully respected most of the slogans of those people of Donbass who were involved in first waves of the protests. But, there is an absolutely CRUCIAL difference between these 2 sets of protests, which mostly demanded the same things (changes in govt, elimination of corruption, social justice, etc): they were carried out under a flag of a foreign country, with direct incitement to violate the territorial integrity of the country. This made them immediately unbearable to the rest of the country. My grandmother, born in Russia, who lived most of her life in Western UA, commented on this: "what kind of idiots demonstrate under foreign flags and wish to be taken seriously?". This, despite the fact that she was generally against the Maydan as a waste of time.

Also, the admin takeovers in West and Centre NEVER, even during the Night of Rage involved anywhere near to the type of military hardware that was used by the "protesters" in Donbass. Nor did Maydan, or any of the numerous mobs taking over admins in the West and Centre ever take hostages--this to me was the watershed moment after which the "separatists" became "terrorists".

RE: shellings of civillians. I suspect the author of the article wrote it after watching a Vice News marathon. While I will not deny that Ukrainian military has fired on civilians, and civilians were killed by stray fire (which is a fact I sincerely regret), the numbers of those killed by ATO forces are highly exaggerated--and there is a mounting body of proof showing that, aside from using such awesome tactics as setting up a howitzer inside a kindergarten to attract retailiatory fire, or evicting civillains in high-rise apartment blocks to set up machine gun or sniper nests in their homes, the terrorists have actually shelled civilian neighbourhoods from centres of cities they occupy. And, here's a funny thing: every time there's a shelling/bombing that's later denied by Ukrainian military, withing literally MINUTES there's a Russian TV camera crew on the spot to report on the latest "atrocities commited by Ukrainian fascists". In Donbass there's already a growing superstition-if LifeNews (Russian TV channel) reporters appear in a neighbourhood--chase them out immediately, before you're pounded to the ground.

RE: National Guard. There's some confusion about this. There are approximately 2 battalions of NG that were recruited from Maydan volunteers-after the restoration of NG, which was one of the first decrees of the new parliamentary coalition following the beginning of the Russian intervention in Crimea. So there's 2 battalions of rather passionate volunteers who have undergone several months training--many of these were combat veterans though--UA still has plenty 50-somethings with experience of the Soviet campaign in Afghanistan, not to mention other Soviet hotspots, Yugoslav wars, and even UN peacekeeping missions (such as Iraq).

The bulk of NG are re-named Internal troops-- a quasi-military, conscription-based army under the aegis of Ministry of the Interior. Theyre were about 50k of these prior to the Revolution. their fighting capabilities differ, but the new experience, and working alongside contract troops, as well as mobilized reservists with combat experience improved them considerably.

As for the various voluntary batallions--not all of them, but many are composed of Donbass residents. of those that I know: "Donbass" (which has since been incorporated into Ministry of the Interior command structure) started out as a Donbass-based, Donbass-peopled unit, and is still commanded by a Donetsk resident. "Azov", which raises the most questions, has at its core the Kharkiv and Kyyiv based Social-Nationalist Assembly--and yes, this is the unit that attracts the largest number of foreign volunteers including some white supremacists. I don't approve, but prior to them trying to enforce their ideology, these guys want to destroy separatists on Donbass, win back Crimea, and then lead Russia to collapse. At the same time as former "political prisoners" these guys are incredibly motivated and they do very good job at the jobs they are given--and in a de-facto war you can't be a chooser. "Aidar"-which is part of the Ministry of Defense command structure--is about half and half Luhansk oblast residents and Maydan volunteers from other parts of UA.

Lastly, there's a fact of murderous Russian propaganda. I can go on for hours about this, but i'll leave at this: I challenge the author of the article to watch nothing but Russia Today for a month, and compare his beliefs before and after (make sure there's someone close by who can cut the author off after a month and slowly ease them back to reality). Then the author should realise that RT is a MILD form of the nonsense that's poured daily from central Russian TV channels. And then consider the fact that people in Donbass have been watching NOTHING bur Russian TV for years (and now they can't watch anything else even if they wanted--because one of the first thing the "People's Republics" do is cut off UA TV. So yeah, people in UA not from Donbass consider those who support terrorists to be brainwashed, and they often are, because they refuse to consider counterarguments when presented with a logical flaw in Russian propaganda they cite.


OK, monster post. I meant to deal with Russian MoD's "analysis" trying to pin the MH17 on UA, but i'll do that tomorrow.

This post has been edited by Mentalist: 22 July 2014 - 03:08 PM

[Terez]

Mentalist, on 22 July 2014 - 04:28 AM, said:

OK, monster post. I meant to deal with Russian MoD's "analysis" trying to bin the MH17 on UA, but i'll do that tomorrow.

Apologies to the community for distracting you from more current events! But part of the difficulty of current events, for me, is the propaganda from all sides. We're hardly free of it here in the US, so I felt the need to study up, which led me to that article (among other things). So thanks a million for breaking it down. It's very frustrating here; one can feel the chill winds of the cold war blowing again, even though the US involvement in the Ukraine situation has been very small, and we had practically no Americans aboard MH17. (One Dutchie with dual citizenship, and another who was attending my dream school, Indiana University.) It's nothing like KAL007 where dozens of Americans were on board, including a US Congressman. Nothing was done by Reagan then, but nothing could be done; direct confrontation between the US and the USSR was to be avoided at all costs; only proxy wars were allowed, the looser the associations, the better. Ukraine is not like anything we got involved in post-WWII; we are not about to get involved now, with our military resources spread so thin and our national budget crippled by two of the longest wars in our relatively short history (along with the W tax cuts). Not that anyone wants us to get involved, but one can't help but think that the situation is very advantageous for Putin, who clearly pines for the resurrection of the USSR. The EU is in not much better shape than we are, collectively.

Which is worse: RT, or Fox? I'm guessing the latter. (Taking into consideration that you said RT is a very mild version of Russian-language state media.) Obama made fun of Romney in one of their debates for claiming that Russia was our #1 geopolitical enemy. Now the GOP is considering drafting him to run again in 2016, because he was right! (About that. The rest is just details.)

[Gothos]

Terez, on 22 July 2014 - 05:09 AM, said:

Which is worse: RT, or Fox? I'm guessing the latter. (Taking into consideration that you said RT is a very mild version of Russian-language state media.) Obama made fun of Romney in one of their debates for claiming that Russia was our #1 geopolitical enemy. Now the GOP is considering drafting him to run again in 2016, because he was right! (About that. The rest is just details.)

Fox doesn't even begin to compete. Russians have a long tradition of propaganda bullshit from soviet and yeltzin times, and they've raised it to a form of art. Enough that people in countries vulnerable to anti-west suggestion like Serbia believe it wholeheartedly by now (which is painful for me to see when I witness reasonable, honourable people repeat this nonsense every day). They'd spin a kindergarten massacre as a valiant attempt to stop future facists.

[Puck]

Gothos, on 22 July 2014 - 05:47 AM, said:

Terez, on 22 July 2014 - 05:09 AM, said:

Which is worse: RT, or Fox? I'm guessing the latter. (Taking into consideration that you said RT is a very mild version of Russian-language state media.) Obama made fun of Romney in one of their debates for claiming that Russia was our #1 geopolitical enemy. Now the GOP is considering drafting him to run again in 2016, because he was right! (About that. The rest is just details.)

Fox doesn't even begin to compete. Russians have a long tradition of propaganda bullshit from soviet and yeltzin times, and they've raised it to a form of art. Enough that people in countries vulnerable to anti-west suggestion like Serbia believe it wholeheartedly by now (which is painful for me to see when I witness reasonable, honourable people repeat this nonsense every day). They'd spin a kindergarten massacre as a valiant attempt to stop future facists.

What Gothos said. I stay in contact with relatives and friends near Kharkiv and argh, even those usually reasonable and educated people buy into that propaganda and its outright lies. My mother and me have been having some serious arguments recently about how much of it is believable even in the slightest because much of what filters through to her goes through her friends in Kharkiv who are in turn fallen for the Propaganda, or don't believe a word of anything - basically, there's no middle ground, and she's not Internet savvy enough to look things up. So yeah, RT is bad for you.

[Mentalist]

Puck, on 22 July 2014 - 07:45 AM, said:

Gothos, on 22 July 2014 - 05:47 AM, said:

Terez, on 22 July 2014 - 05:09 AM, said:

Which is worse: RT, or Fox? I'm guessing the latter. (Taking into consideration that you said RT is a very mild version of Russian-language state media.) Obama made fun of Romney in one of their debates for claiming that Russia was our #1 geopolitical enemy. Now the GOP is considering drafting him to run again in 2016, because he was right! (About that. The rest is just details.)

Fox doesn't even begin to compete. Russians have a long tradition of propaganda bullshit from soviet and yeltzin times, and they've raised it to a form of art. Enough that people in countries vulnerable to anti-west suggestion like Serbia believe it wholeheartedly by now (which is painful for me to see when I witness reasonable, honourable people repeat this nonsense every day). They'd spin a kindergarten massacre as a valiant attempt to stop future facists.

What Gothos said. I stay in contact with relatives and friends near Kharkiv and argh, even those usually reasonable and educated people buy into that propaganda and its outright lies. My mother and me have been having some serious arguments recently about how much of it is believable even in the slightest because much of what filters through to her goes through her friends in Kharkiv who are in turn fallen for the Propaganda, or don't believe a word of anything - basically, there's no middle ground, and she's not Internet savvy enough to look things up. So yeah, RT is bad for you.

this

In fact, I would go as far as to say that the very reason the Putin= Hitler comparison was propped up in the first place was precisely BECAUSE it is Russia's state policy to use its enormous propaganda machine to completely mold the minds of its populace, as well as all the "Russian-speakers" they can get their hands on--in Serbia, Israel, all the FSU republics, as well as anyone who's immigrated to the West, but continues to watch Russian TV.

Of the 6 or so Russian channels available on cable in Canada, the only one moderately watchable is RTVI, which is a New-York based channel that has Russian Jews as its primary audience (no offence meant here, just stating the facts, since they focus heavily on Israeli matters). They work closely with the Russian "opposition-lite" radio station Echo Moskvy, which attempts to provide an alternative opinion, but is in fact part of Gazprom media, so it's on a pretty tight leash.

The one truly independent media channel in Russia, TVRain, has been recently hounded by bureaucracy and is very much on its way to closure. It's been removed from all major cable providers, and is currently available on the Internet, afaik.

EDIT: oh, and I've stopped speaking with my Russian-speaking "Soviet intelligentsia" grandparents about politics. At all. I stopped speaking to my grandfather about it, after he called the mouthpiece of Rossiya24 Dmitry Kiselev "an educated and intelligent man". It was a very purposeful cutoff. With my grandmother it was less spontaneous--we just mutually reached an unspoken agreement not to bring up these topics. Fortunately, they live in Western UA, in the "bastion of Ukrainian nationalism", so they don't need to worry about pro-Russian separatists stirring things up.

This post has been edited by Mentalist: 22 July 2014 - 03:13 PM

[Terez]

I have stopped speaking to my dad, my grandma, and her brother about politics because they watch so much Fox. It may be a mild and artless propaganda machine, but it still has them full of conspiracy theories. My great-uncle visited my grandma the other day, and I walked in on them talking about how we should sterilize parents of welfare babies. They really believe that is the source of our national debt. Of course, when I walked in on them, they stopped talking.

[Illuyankas]

Tell them that ever since they won that lawsuit about being an entertainment provider rather than a news channel they're no longer required to tell the truth and are in fact just as accurate and unbiased as the Colbert Report. Also fake getting married to someone with the last name of Lopez.


Real talk the amount of propaganda being swallowed without an ounce of introspection by millions of people is utterly terrifying.

[Terez]

Illuyankas, on 22 July 2014 - 03:47 PM, said:

Tell them that ever since they won that lawsuit about being an entertainment provider rather than a news channel they're no longer required to tell the truth and are in fact just as accurate and unbiased as the Colbert Report.

I believe that was only in Canada, since we don't have any such laws.

/hijack

[Mentalist]

Busy day today-gonna watch Russian MoD briefing now, will comment when I get home.

[Puck]

So, apparently Ukraine has passed a bill for a third round of raising "reservists" to support "the government's antiterrorist operation in Ukraine's east", and has also raised the "the military service age for reservists to 60 years". Here's the only source I could find for now: http://www.kyivpost....ion-357374.html

Now, Mentalist is much better at this thing than me, but the reason I am posting this is that, somehow, this filtered through to my mother before it could reach me, but her it reached as "those Ukrainian government bastards are going to draft ALL the able men up to 60 years of age into servise to throw them at Putin!!!" She's sold on Russia by now, and questioning her sources is akin to asking for a good shouting. We might have to stop talking to each other or things will get nasty. So yeah, so much for educated opinions.

[Gothos]

Come to think of it, I do wonder what China , Kazakhstan and Belarus think about all this...

[Mentalist]

ok, wow, such amateurs it's not even funny (decided not to wait untill the end). Recommend everyone watch it--there's a terrible English translation to go along with it.

linky here: http://stat.multimed...fVideoAudioFile


The first 10 minutes are spent ominously pointing out Uki AA stations at 3 days before the incident. The last shot shows a sizable BUK depot. The shot features one separately standing And a number around the depots. Then we see a shot 3 days later, where almost everyhting is obscured by clouds, but the one standing separately is missing from the spot it was in 3 days ago. PROOF!!!!

Then there's a shot 8 clicks from Shakhtarsk, which is said to be "on the outskirts of terrorist-held area. WRONG!!! nearest UA troops in the area can be found beseiging Amvrosiyivka, some 20 clicks to the south. So thank you, Russia for showing us the Buk that shot down the plane, much obliged.

There's also a pretty graph, showing that Uki AA systems employed an increasing number of radars. True, and explainable by the fact that Uki MoD claimed on Wednesday that it's SU was shot down by a Russian MIG interceptor. Following the crash, the number of mobile radars used was reduced, due to the general cooldown of activity in that part of the front.

Next part-results from Rostov satellite tracking, which supposedly find a SU-25 circling around the downed Boeing. yes, okay. Considering Su-25 only flies up to 5 clcks, only fires up to 7 clicks and is a fighter/bomber primarily used for surface bombing. (And wikipedia has been tracking diligent work of Russia's cyber workers in editing the wiki page for SU-25, so as to make it seem it can reach 10 clicks).

Not gonna comment on Russian tracking data and how accurate it is... yeah. Just a small tidbit that the screen features 2 B772 labels, but one of them is referred to as a 777... looks slightly odd.

Then there's a "debunking" of a Uki video showing a Buk being moved down to Russia. Their proof? this video was done in the Uki-held city of Krasnoarmijsk, because there's a billboard advertising a Krasnoarmiysk car dealership... never mind the fact the video features Trolley-bus lines, and there are no trolley-buses in Krasnoarmiysk... but who cares, right?

Here's the vid in question, to show the trolley-bus line:

Overall, a bit of truth (potentially), a solid helping of lies. And a potentialy truthful dig @ the states for not releasing their satellite data. And a whole lot of meandering conjecture and clever-looking accusations.

[Mentalist]

Gothos, on 22 July 2014 - 08:47 PM, said:

Come to think of it, I do wonder what China , Kazakhstan and Belarus think about all this...

China smiles enigmatically and re-iterates that the crisis must be solved "respecting Ukraine's sovereignty and territorial intergrity" (read: we don't condone Crimea and won't recognise it as Russia, but we'll just sit here until you and the West kill each other, thank you very much). Though now that Putin is drawing the Far Eastern troops to the Uki border, they may perk up and run some kind of "exercises" around Vladivostok (please God, please!)

Kazakhstan is being quiet, or mildly pro-UA when Nazarbayev speaks up.

Belarus is being very schizo: saying some Pro-Russia stuff, then anti-separatist stuff the next day. Lukashenko has a VERY tight balancing act to play. He sold the country to Russia, but (to his credit) not a single Soviet-era enterprise in Belarus stopped working. People are employed if not happy, and although corruption is a problem, of the 3 Slav soviet republics, Belarus is the closest to the vaunted "stability", even if IS all hinging on cheap Russian gas.

[Mentalist]

Watched the US State Dept Press Brief... Good God, I can see why Russians are laughing

For anyone interested: , the first half hour or so.

Compared to the PR talk, Russia's fake info, presented in an awkward way with loads of obvious conjecture still sounds MILES more credible. ugh.

[Terez]

Mentalist, on 23 July 2014 - 03:56 AM, said:

Watched the US State Dept Press Brief... Good God, I can see why Russians are laughing

For anyone interested: https://www.youtube....h?v=yGNn5ZB0wEo, the first half hour or so.

Compared to the PR talk, Russia's fake info, presented in an awkward way with loads of obvious conjecture still sounds MILES more credible. ugh.

That is how our government tends to do things. They stick to a set of narrow talking points because giving detailed answers makes it easier to misstep. Most of us don't watch full briefings for that reason; it's beyond tedious, and we just wait for the press to tell us what the interesting bits were, assuming there were any. The press secretaries are often junior staffers who were dumb enough to apply for a job that no one really wants, and they usually don't even know enough to give detailed answers. I couldn't watch much more than 7 minutes of the above video.

[Mentalist]

Terez, on 23 July 2014 - 05:26 AM, said:

Mentalist, on 23 July 2014 - 03:56 AM, said:

Watched the US State Dept Press Brief... Good God, I can see why Russians are laughing

For anyone interested: https://www.youtube....h?v=yGNn5ZB0wEo, the first half hour or so.

Compared to the PR talk, Russia's fake info, presented in an awkward way with loads of obvious conjecture still sounds MILES more credible. ugh.

That is how our government tends to do things. They stick to a set of narrow talking points because giving detailed answers makes it easier to misstep. Most of us don't watch full briefings for that reason; it's beyond tedious, and we just wait for the press to tell us what the interesting bits were, assuming there were any. The press secretaries are often junior staffers who were dumb enough to apply for a job that no one really wants, and they usually don't even know enough to give detailed answers. I couldn't watch much more than 7 minutes of the above video.

As someoen who's aware of the situation, I could understand the logic behind her outbursts, but for a person who didn't research the topic in depth, Russia's arguments would've sounded more convincing, even if they are blatantly factually incorrect.

US has since released more pictures, including a "training" facility in Rostov oblast in Russia, close to the border.

Some Russian soldier-idiot has posted a picture of a howitzer on his VK page, with a status update "spent all night shelling Ukrainians", and a geolocator placing him in Rostov oblast close to the border. The picture is gone now, as is the profile, and (presumably) so is the hapless conscript.

One of terrorist leaders gave an interview to Reuters in which he alleged that terrorists did, indeed have BUKs, and blamed UA for provoking firing on a civilian jet, by flying their own planes int eh area, prompting the terrorists to shoot down everyhting from the sky. He later recanted to a Russian media outlet RIA Novosti, saying he was talking in pure hypotheticals,a nd he was taken out of context. Hrm.

Also, ATO forces lost 2 more warplanes, flying at around 5.5 clicks. even most advanced handheld rocket launchers don't shoot that far. Ukrainian intelligence has reasons to believe the fatal shots were fired from the Russian side of the border.

RE: the war. Since I last wrote on July 19th, lots of things happened. ATO gained a good chunk of ground. Of the Rubizhne-Syeverodonetsk-Lysychansk aglomeration, the first 2 have been liberated. Realizing they were about to be trapped and encircled, terrorist leader Mozgovyj (a local crime boss) pulled out of the city, regrouping further south in a major industrial city of Alchevsk. in doing so, he abandoned the bulk of his armored vehicles. Fighting's been going all day today in and around Lysychansk-a number of LNR diehards stayed behind and the mop up operation is proving costly-Lysychanska nd Syeverodonetsk are essentially one city, situated on different banks of the river Siverskyj Donets. They are connected by a few bridges, which make excellent choke points. Apparently those terrorists that stayed behind received reinforcements from Luhansk, and the fighting there has been intense. Lysychansk remains LNR's last stronghold in the "north" of Donbass, and its fall will immediately shift the front lines far to the south.

At the same time, "Donbass" has succeeded yesterday in taking the city of Popasna, and is advancing towards Pervomaysk.

There's intense fighting around Donetsk itself. latest dispatches today indicate the terrorists have abandoned their positions in the village of Karlivka (which has been a battlefield for over a month, due to the fact it's situated naxt to a major dam and water reservoir), and 2 other villages on the road from Krasnoarmiysk to Donetsk. Advance units of Ukrainian military, as well as the volunteer batallion "Dnipro" and Right Sector's own batallion led personally by RS's leader Yarosh have entered the outskirts of Donetsk. Given it's a major, sprawling industrial center, that's not saying much-there's still a long way to go, but the progress is heartening.

Situation remains touch and go around Luhansk-the city is still not fully blocked, with the road to Krasnodon allowing steady supply of weapons, ammunition and manpower from the Russian border. ATO forces continue to claim that they have "deblockaded" the airport, but the use of rocket-propelled artillery systems by the terrorists means that establishing a steady supply line is still difficult.

Internationally; EU will be deciding on "tougher sanctions" tomorrow. I'm sceptical, because a consensus will be hard to reach when it comes to sector-wide sanctions, with Bulgaria especially (reportedly) being Russia's advocate.

[Mentalist]

Welp, this is just awesome.

Parliamentary coalition in UA parliament has dissolved. PM resigned. Parliamentary election in the Fall.

Parliament also failed a number of important legislative initiatives. among these, allowing US and European investors to invest into about 49% of Ukraine's gas transport system--which would allow a major capital influx that's kinda necessary in the war situation.

Russian parliament, when they heard about it, broke out in standing ovation.

And EU foreign ministers have (predictably) postponed a final determination of just what kind of sanctions to put on Russia.

Overall, not a great day.

This post has been edited by Mentalist: 24 July 2014 - 03:05 PM

[Gothos]

... the hell?

[Mentalist]

Gothos, on 24 July 2014 - 04:55 PM, said:

... the hell?

God-Mother-F&*%ing-DAMNED politics.

It's got to do with the fact that post-Revolution, the parliamentary majority was re-shuffeld to include new MP "groups", composed largely from MPs who were placed in parliament by influencial financial-industrial groups (I.E., "oligarchic clans"). As such, the new coalition's drive to reform teh system through passsin legislature was always half-hearted when it came to fundamental changes that affect the interests of particular oligarchs.

Also, the prolonged existance of the fraction of Communist Party of Ukraine (whose members on regional level have been the most ardent supporters and organizers of verious separatist and pro-Russian movements), as well as the rump of the pro-former president's Party of Regions (which is based around the principal Donbass oligarchs and supported the terrorists less overtly), both of which continued to push a pro-Russian "conciliation" agenda, insisting that the ATO needs to be put on hold, so as to negotiate with DNR and LNR representatives. These issues fomented a common sentiment that we need a re-election of the parliament. However, just about no-one really though it would happen so fast, esp, whilst we're in the middle of a freaking war.

Also: majority of the cabinet are reps of one of the 3 "parties of the Maydan"--including the PM. The new Pres is a mostly independent player as an oligarch, who is currently building up his own political capital and party, based on the least know of the 3 Maydan parties- the Ukrainian Democratic Alliance for Reforms UDAR ("strike") of Vitaly Klytchko. The common fear is, UDAR itself is a "project" of oligarch Firtash, who bankrolled Putin's gas deals (and is currently under house arrest in Austria, while the FBI continues to demand his extradition to the US), and strengthening of the pres under UDAR will allow other odious personnages from the old regime to "reinvent" themselves, hiding under the presidential brand.

Too many games. While people keep dying. Politicians don't seem to realize that eventually those soldiers will come back to Kyyiv, and they won't be polite in asking who's responsible for delays in decisions that cost lives, and who's using their blood as an opportunity to get a comfy cabinet and a cushy post that allows him/her to divert budget flows into their own pockets.

EDIT: On the somewhat bright side, terrorists were beaten out of Lysychansk. having lost this key stronghold, the frontline now immediately shifts some 45 clicks south to the city of Pervomaysk. Popasna, on its western outskirts, is already taken, and there are reports that terrorists are vacating the neighbouring cities (in a line, North to South) of Kirovsk, Stakhanov and Bryanka and focusing on fortifying Alchevsk (20 clicks south-East of Pervomaysk), which sits astride the direct highway between Donetsk and Luhansk. Local populace is growing increasingly hostile to terrorist occupiers, there's a growing number of reports in smaller cities of rallies urging LNR and DNR "liberators" to leave the cities they hold.

This post has been edited by Mentalist: 24 July 2014 - 07:03 PM

[Georgeluman]

Yeah you are correct