[Tiste Simeon]

Cowards because they voted a certain way? A lot of people felt just as strongly about staying in the Union as the diehard Nationalists did about leaving it. For their own reasons. Labelling them all cowards is just as small minded as labelling all the SNP followers as isolationist racists with a 300 year old grudge.

[Malaclypse]

OK, I'll try to phrase this differently - my comment (which has since been edited) was meant to refer to people who voted in the referendum, not anybody else - the chance of something new and interesting in their grasp and they choose the same old thing, it baffles me

This post has been edited by Malaclypse: 19 September 2014 - 01:00 PM

[Mentalist]

Malaclypse, on 19 September 2014 - 12:51 PM, said:

OK, I'll try to phrase this differently - my comment (which has since been edited) was meant to refer to people who voted in the referendum, not anybody else - the chance of something new and interesting in their grasp and they choose the same old thing, it baffles me

With all due respect, Mal, "something new and interesting" isn't really a strong reason to overhaul millions' way of life. To vote "yes" people'd have needed to belive that their lives would have improved as a result (not necessarily economically-national pride plays into it as well)

Watching from the sidelines, I'd have supported a yes vote, (despite the whole Eastern UA thing, I'm a staunch supporter of self-determination).

Despite that, it seems the majority looked at numbers. And both sides had pretty sketchy numbers, so a status quo with a degree of predictability was preferable.

That being said, I agree with the sentiment that if London doesn't give Scots an actual devo max, there's very good reasons to raise the issue again: it seems that it was supporters of devo max that were the swing votes, so if they fell cheated, I think they'd be justified in reconsidering their decision.

[Macros]

People vote with their wallets.

[DeadHedge]

Malaclypse, on 19 September 2014 - 09:46 AM, said:

and I thought the Scottish had some balls -

When your enemy promises dire consequences, you know that they fear the consequences as well.

I would be screaming if I was Scottish and cared about this - the cowards in your midst are the ones that keep you back - as far as I'm concerned, the whole 'so-called' democratic system needs a massive upgrade. Eliminate the nation-states, they're the ones that always cause trouble - reduce it to local and global - as much as I get down on the Americans and their way of going about things, I like the idea of states that have a great deal of local control, in accordance with the wishes of their constituency - the model is good and it should be applied world-wide, by blocks of population, imo

Malaclypse, on 19 September 2014 - 12:33 PM, said:

Because the 'no' supporters just want the status quo - they are happy enough with what they've got and don't want it threatened in any way

There's nothing to celebrate for them, only a reassertion of the status quo.

Mal,

I take quite alot of offence at these statements. I am a 26 year old born and bred Scot who has lived her for my entire life. I voted NO and i am very proud of it. I didnt vote no due to 'fear' i voted NO due to FACTS!

One of the points the yes campaign was spouting was that Scotland would lose the NHS if we stayed with the union. This fact? WRONG, the NHS in Scotland is run BY scotland and owned by guess who, SCOTLAND. and this wouldnt change.

Could you explain how i am a coward because i voted using facts and not by using the SNP wish list? I didnt fear the consequencies, the risks of going independant were far too great and i wouldnt want my child growing up even more disadvantaged that we already are

[Grief]

Cause, on 19 September 2014 - 12:12 PM, said:

I dont understand this. Scotland has been part of britian since 1608? What is it that they are really so bothered by?

One of the major issues is that staying with the union means accepting that we will be subjected to governments - particularly right-wing governments - that almost no-one supports within Scotland. This map shows how the constituencies of Scotland voted in the last general election.



Currently, the conservative party (blue), is in power. Unsurprisingly, a lot of Scots feel that they are not accurately represented by the UK government.

Also contributing to this is a sentiment that the other major UK party (Labour, shown in red), have shifted from their traditionally left wing roots in order to garner (English) votes and don't represent Scottish views that well any more either. A lot of people feel that Scotland is simply a more left-wing country than England is, and that being part of a union with them means getting right-wing governments that we don't want or alternatively, left-wing governments that are not nearly so left-wing as we would want; beyond this, that neither party has much of a reason to change this, or more generally to really care about Scotland (the Conservatives because we're not going to vote for them anyway, Labour because we're going to vote for them to keep the Tories out anyway).

Also, as a slight history note, 1603 is the union of the crowns but the acts of union aren't until 1706/07.

[Gnaw]

Malaclypse, on 19 September 2014 - 09:46 AM, said:

I would be screaming if I was Scottish and cared about this - the cowards in your midst are the ones that keep you back - as far as I'm concerned,

So this is you on a subject which you don't care about and have no stake in?

You're the old fart at the end of the bar yelling at the ref on the TV aren't you?

[amphibian]

Yes, that is basically Mal - except he's yelling at the bartender and the customers for watching the TV, not the people on the TV.

Doubly so, if it's China Mieville involved on the telly.

It was fascinating to follow along with the talk here (very civil) and the talk of a couple Scottish friends of mine had, as well as the usual medium-profile Scots in sports and so on. There were good reasons for both sides, hopes to be had on both sides and I was curious to see what happened without the specter of imminent violence looming as in the India/Pakistan partition and other partitions/staying togethers.

To be honest, I was leaning towards the "Yes" side a tiny bit because I'm more for self-determination, rather than keeping the UK tottering forwards.

[D'iversify]

A nice BBC article summarising reasons why another referendum might happen soon but also reasons why it would be less likely: http://www.bbc.co.uk...otland-29281913

[Coco with marshmallows]

to be honest i'm still slightly stunned by the result.


And the this shit happens:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-29288249

www.buzzfeed.com/alanwhite/police-called-to-george-square-in-glasgow-following-confront#1zhp23t



To put this in perspective, last 2/3 nights there were hundreds/thousands of yes voters in and around George square, and no problems whatsoever.

Supposedly these scumbags made plans a while ago to go to George Square tonight and start trouble regardless of what happened. As it stands, they're attacking the losers in this referendum.

Classy.

Real fucking classy.

This post has been edited by Coco with marshmallows: 19 September 2014 - 10:23 PM

[Grief]

That's just shameful really, and it's upsetting to see it happen.

I've not heard about much like that though, mostly what I've seen has just been quite a sorry amount of passive aggression, gloating, and snide commentary. Which is especially sorry since a lot of it is coming from the same people who, not two days ago, were talking about how, whichever way it went, they hoped we could all move forward in solidarity etc...

I think some people just want to cause a scene, regardless of what the cause is...

Edit: And yeah, today has been strange...everything just seems really muted.

[Abyss]

Malaclypse, on 19 September 2014 - 07:05 AM, said:

I dunno, with Quebec and the 51/49, the separatists blamed it on Montreal, which is probably apt. Certainly my impression was that everybody out of the big cities was rabidly separatist, so cut off Montreal is my answer. No idea if a similar situation obtains in Scotland. In any case, my condolences to those who feel passionately about this, I was really looking forward to a new country

Your recall is somewhat inaccurate, but hey, Montreal was ready to walk. There was the whole 'if Canada is divisible, so is Quebec' movement, which gave the pequistes hives because they would lose a major port, business centre and tourist draw.
As for Scotland, I have no stake in that debate, but having lived the Quebec madness thrice now, I think the Scots and UK are better off for having avoided the ensuing mess potential.

[Macros]

Rioting to celebrate a win, good work guys.
Man i hate working in Glasgow

[Tiste Simeon]

Macros, on 20 September 2014 - 07:41 AM, said:

Rioting to celebrate a win, good work guys.
Man i hate working in Glasgow

I think those guys who rioted were as much part of the No Campaign as ISIS are to do with a majority of Muslims.

[Coco with marshmallows]

I agree they're an extremist fringe Tiste, but they're still part of it.

This is the same crowd that messed up Manchester a few years ago (the plethora of Rangers tops kind of gives it away)

Like a lot of people, I was aware there was an undercurrent of anti-english sentiment amongst the extremist end of the 'Yes' supporters. My mother's English, and she told me she'd been told she had no right to vote on Scottish matters - pathetic.

That extremist element was a tiny minority of the Yes supporters, but according to some commentators it was widespread and rife - i never saw it personally, but as my mother did i'm sure it was there.

At the other end of the scale was this sort of scumbag - virulently (and violently) anti-Yes - this i did see personally.

Still, on a lighter note, guess it proves the Simpsons right in the end:

[D'iversify]

For comedy value - Russia alleges foul play in scottish referendum: http://www.theguardi...tish-referendum

"Russian observers say referendum count took place in rooms that were too big and did not meet international standards"; also suggestions the high turnout was suspicious (recall that the Crimean referendum turnout was 83%, with it being well known that the Tatars, who make up 12% of the population were by and large boycotting it).

This post has been edited by D'iversify: 20 September 2014 - 12:48 PM

[Tiste Simeon]

^ Cos Russia are the height of fairness and transparency in what they do!

[Gredfallan Ale]

I'm glad most regions in Europe "gave up" their independence a long time ago; I don't like war that much.

I really don't get that emotional hang towards independence, I'd rather have unions of relatively independent local government units. It increases the resilience against large scale events and promotes interregional cooperation, while keeping the local issues local.

[D'iversify]

Gredfallan Ale, on 20 September 2014 - 02:21 PM, said:

I'm glad most regions in Europe "gave up" their independence a long time ago; I don't like war that much.

I really don't get that emotional hang towards independence, I'd rather have unions of relatively independent local government units. It increases the resilience against large scale events and promotes interregional cooperation, while keeping the local issues local.

I'd say that ideally I favour supranational unions operating on a federal basis as a means to promote international social, economic and political co-operation where it is needed to tackle large-scale issues. But I think that if such supranational unions are to be successful and democratic, all significant cultural regions within the union should at least have autonomy, preferrably independence, which would take the form of being an equal negotiating partner within the union with proportionate representation in any supranational parliamentary institution. Certainly there are issues in that the more components to a union the more potential divergent political and economic paths can be taken, and potentially contradictory strategies could well, if not appropraitely negotiated, undermine the union in the long-term. But it is in the interests of democracy that every distinct cultural group is given appropriate representation, and the easiest way this can be done is through the break-up of larger states into component states representing these groups. Note that I am not coming from an ethno-nationalistic perspective, more one of civic self-determination based on the recognition that people do tend to have particular cultural groups they associate and identify with over others and that if there is to be democratic political negotiation within a supranational union, the units of negotiation should be based on those which the people of the union best identify with.

[Wanderer]

The result was a tough pill to swallow. The YES campaign had the entirety of the British Media and political establishment set squarely against it with the exception of ONE paper - The Sunday Herald. The amount of bias, lies and scaremongering put out by the media ( in particular the BBC) was atrocious. For the YES campaign to get 45% of the vote against all of that is a bloody miracle.

In the last ten days of the campaign Scotland was witness to the most horrific barrage of negativity and bribes. The banks were leaving, the markets were collapsing, the oil was running out ( AGAIN) and here came the three amigos ( Cameron, Clegg and Miliband) offering "more powers" which they ensured weren't on the ballot paper in the first place. Powers which, not even a two full days after the result, are being reneged on. The British state, eh? Good at keeping the provinces in check.

Scotland had a chance at something better. The YES camp was the greatest grassroots campaign I've ever seen and they should all be damned proud of what they achieved.

The 45% who voted YES - 1.6 million Scots - were emotionally crushed yesterday. Some had worked towards this goal for years. They put their souls into it and they lost. It took the campaign ONE DAY to grieve. One day and they were picking themselves up, organising and preparing to stride forward ( check out the #the45 #the45plus on twitter). They have tasted the power of real democracy and they are not going to lie down. A political war is going to be declared in Scotland against the parties supporting the Union with the 2015 General Election and 2016 Scottish Election being the battlegrounds. Scottish Labour, the Scottish Tories and Scottish Liberal Democrats will be routed. All pro-independence parties will be elected and another referendum will be inevitable.

This ain't over. It's just delayed.