[Andorion]

My question is, after reading NoK I got the impression that Kellanved and Dancer formed the Malazan Empire simply to use it as a platform for more lofty quests like going after the throne of Shadow. Previously I had thought that they built the Empire out of the usual motives: power, money etc. and then got bored with the entire thing and went looking for bigger and better things. But now it seems as if the entire Empire was simply a means to an end. Am I right? Were they ever actually interested in a mortal human empire at all?


I am on a re-read of the entire series and I am mixing in ICE's books in rough sequence.(Read NoK right after MT). However I have not read any ICE book after and including OST though I have read all SE books including CG. So please no spoilers for the ICE books after OST.

[Aptorian]

I think that Kel and Dancer work on two different levels.

One is their ultimate goal, which is something in the lines of becoming Masters of the Universe. Everything they do and have done are stepping stones on their way to gaining more knowledge and more power.

On the other hand Kel and Dancer, despite their very grim actions, are not actually "evil". They have worked to create a more stable and peaceful world. Their tools and their methods have been appalling but they do not appear to have any need of worship or praise. They do what they do to build something bigger. That includes the Malazan Empire.

They created a more civilized and more structured part of the world, and in exchange they got access to the means and the knowledge they needed to figure out how to ascend.

[Andorion]

Maybe Apt, on 15 February 2014 - 06:49 AM, said:

I think that Kel and Dancer work on two different levels.

One is their ultimate goal, which is something in the lines of becoming Masters of the Universe. Everything they do and have done are stepping stones on their way to gaining more knowledge and more power.

On the other hand Kel and Dancer, despite their very grim actions, are not actually "evil". They have worked to create a more stable and peaceful world. Their tools and their methods have been appalling but they do not appear to have any need of worship or praise. They do what they do to build something bigger. That includes the Malazan Empire.

They created a more civilized and more structured part of the world, and in exchange they got access to the means and the knowledge they needed to figure out how to ascend.

You know, I can relate what you said to Dancer, who does often seem to have a more empathetic side, but Kellanved? He is either hysterically giggling or shrieking.... Come to think of it, ISkaral Pust is a very good priest for him

[Aptorian]

Consider that Kelanved built an empire based on Merits. Kelanved had no use for preening aristocrats and grovelling sycophants. In the Empire the cream rises to the top and he uses the most intelligent and most talented to create progress and stability.

Kelanveds behavior is indeed odd but I believe half it is pretend and the other part is probably his mind going strange because of the shadow stuff.

[Kanese S's]

Shadow is a hell of a drug.



I think their motivations are almost always multifaceted. I'm not sure if they were contemplating reordering the pantheon back in their bar owning days, but I think at the very least, one thing led to another and the more powerful they got, the more they saw opportunities to change things according to their design on grander and grander scales.

[Coaster]

I had the thought that Kell and Dancer were always working toward a larger goal...like maybe the elimination of the gods or ascendancy. As long as magic exists the way it is, as long as there are entities who lives span millennia and wield enormous personal power it lends itself to the patterns of the past being repeated. As long as gods and ascendants are manipulating, humanity will never be free to control its own fate. My thought was that Kell and Dancer were working toward putting humanity's fate in humanities hands.

[Aptorian]

I the next step past Ascendants is Elder Gods. Seems to me Kelanved and Dancer have their eyes set on the Azaths and elemental power.

[heavymetaltroll]

I seem to recall in one of the books one of them mentioning this very issue, something about creating the Empire but then finding other avenues to achieve their goals and thus abandoning it.

[Dayspring]

Kellanved will do the right thing but grumble about it and not even care if anyone understands what he does (different from Dancer in that he'll do the right thing and won't grumble about it)...and from that, with the theme of Convergence running throughout the books, him and Dancer increasingly found themselves around people and situations which led them down paths, which, to them, seemed unavoidable. Either before or while living in the Deadhouse in Malaz City, they travel the paths to/through/around the Azath houses, and learn some important things about how the world works on a fundamental level. And not least importantly, the location of the First Throne (of the T'lan Imass) which gives them an unstoppable army. And what to do with said army? They see injustice throughout the world, so they decide to right some of those things. Doesn't help/hurt that among their crew is a royal heir Surly and her admirals, and the world's premier soldier (that encompasses swordsman, leader, and tactician) and thus, Empire. I wouldn't say they set out with empire-building in mind but looking at it I'd say it was inevitable. And since it wasn't their primary goal, once they discovered the empty throne of Shadow and found it more to their liking, and realized what it would mean if there was a god ruling a mortal empire, they set in motion their "assassinations".