[Trake]

Fanderay, on 01 November 2013 - 07:46 PM, said:

Trake, on 01 November 2013 - 07:42 PM, said:

Jalan, on 01 November 2013 - 07:35 PM, said:

Trake, on 01 November 2013 - 07:29 PM, said:

Or should I just have been more tunnel visioned and not pushed on other suspects?

Honestly (frankly? ), I think yes, at least a little. The suspiciousness is that you were unusually passive towards Fanderay (and it should be said, most everyone else, I guess) day 4 when your arguments day 3 and general behaviour so far lead to expectations that you'd be much more pushy on him.

Trake, on 01 November 2013 - 07:29 PM, said:

You really don't think it's odd that the same guy with a total hardon for Fanderay, who then tried to de-rail onto Jalan, yesterday essentially chose to have himself lynched instead of Fanderay? This last piece of evidence is the bit that's really done it for me.

You mean Hanas yesterday? I didn't really pick up on that.

I'll go give the end of yesterday a re-read before commenting on this, but this intrigues me.

Possibly yeah, but other people weren't pushing on things I thought ought to be pushed. I also feel people typecast me as overly-aggressive based on early play designed to actually kick the game into life day 1.

On Hanas:

When Hanas voted yesterday, there were three of us on who could vote. Me, him, Ghennan.
You had already voted Hanas.
I had voted Fanderay.

So, what are his voting options here?

Well, assuming none of the people on are going to self vote, the only possible lynches are himself (as you'd already voted him), Fanderay, or you. A lynch on either you or Fanderay would require all three people on to vote him.

He then votes...Ghennan. A lynch that cannot succeed at this point.

This makes himself the only possible lynch.

To be fair, Ghennan was perfectly willing to self-hammer on Day 3 to get a lynch. the only non-suicide lynched possible were Hanas and me. But that doesn't me the 3 ppl online couldn't lynch anyone else. In fact, with 3 votes needed for a lynch, you may have lynched just about anyone.

I think it's a bit different when D-day is more of a consideration. I mean, we can ask Ghennan, but I really doubt he would've self voted...

[Fanderay]

Trake, on 01 November 2013 - 08:01 PM, said:

Fanderay, on 01 November 2013 - 07:46 PM, said:

Trake, on 01 November 2013 - 07:42 PM, said:

Jalan, on 01 November 2013 - 07:35 PM, said:

Trake, on 01 November 2013 - 07:29 PM, said:

Or should I just have been more tunnel visioned and not pushed on other suspects?

Honestly (frankly? ), I think yes, at least a little. The suspiciousness is that you were unusually passive towards Fanderay (and it should be said, most everyone else, I guess) day 4 when your arguments day 3 and general behaviour so far lead to expectations that you'd be much more pushy on him.

Trake, on 01 November 2013 - 07:29 PM, said:

You really don't think it's odd that the same guy with a total hardon for Fanderay, who then tried to de-rail onto Jalan, yesterday essentially chose to have himself lynched instead of Fanderay? This last piece of evidence is the bit that's really done it for me.

You mean Hanas yesterday? I didn't really pick up on that.

I'll go give the end of yesterday a re-read before commenting on this, but this intrigues me.

Possibly yeah, but other people weren't pushing on things I thought ought to be pushed. I also feel people typecast me as overly-aggressive based on early play designed to actually kick the game into life day 1.

On Hanas:

When Hanas voted yesterday, there were three of us on who could vote. Me, him, Ghennan.
You had already voted Hanas.
I had voted Fanderay.

So, what are his voting options here?

Well, assuming none of the people on are going to self vote, the only possible lynches are himself (as you'd already voted him), Fanderay, or you. A lynch on either you or Fanderay would require all three people on to vote him.

He then votes...Ghennan. A lynch that cannot succeed at this point.

This makes himself the only possible lynch.

To be fair, Ghennan was perfectly willing to self-hammer on Day 3 to get a lynch. the only non-suicide lynched possible were Hanas and me. But that doesn't me the 3 ppl online couldn't lynch anyone else. In fact, with 3 votes needed for a lynch, you may have lynched just about anyone.

I think it's a bit different when D-day is more of a consideration. I mean, we can ask Ghennan, but I really doubt he would've self voted...

my point stands: you could've voted off Jalan. Stop making it as if you HAD to vote for Hanas, because "there was no choice".

[Trake]

Fanderay, on 01 November 2013 - 08:03 PM, said:

Trake, on 01 November 2013 - 08:01 PM, said:

Fanderay, on 01 November 2013 - 07:46 PM, said:

Trake, on 01 November 2013 - 07:42 PM, said:

Jalan, on 01 November 2013 - 07:35 PM, said:

Trake, on 01 November 2013 - 07:29 PM, said:

Or should I just have been more tunnel visioned and not pushed on other suspects?

Honestly (frankly? ), I think yes, at least a little. The suspiciousness is that you were unusually passive towards Fanderay (and it should be said, most everyone else, I guess) day 4 when your arguments day 3 and general behaviour so far lead to expectations that you'd be much more pushy on him.

Trake, on 01 November 2013 - 07:29 PM, said:

You really don't think it's odd that the same guy with a total hardon for Fanderay, who then tried to de-rail onto Jalan, yesterday essentially chose to have himself lynched instead of Fanderay? This last piece of evidence is the bit that's really done it for me.

You mean Hanas yesterday? I didn't really pick up on that.

I'll go give the end of yesterday a re-read before commenting on this, but this intrigues me.

Possibly yeah, but other people weren't pushing on things I thought ought to be pushed. I also feel people typecast me as overly-aggressive based on early play designed to actually kick the game into life day 1.

On Hanas:

When Hanas voted yesterday, there were three of us on who could vote. Me, him, Ghennan.
You had already voted Hanas.
I had voted Fanderay.

So, what are his voting options here?

Well, assuming none of the people on are going to self vote, the only possible lynches are himself (as you'd already voted him), Fanderay, or you. A lynch on either you or Fanderay would require all three people on to vote him.

He then votes...Ghennan. A lynch that cannot succeed at this point.

This makes himself the only possible lynch.

To be fair, Ghennan was perfectly willing to self-hammer on Day 3 to get a lynch. the only non-suicide lynched possible were Hanas and me. But that doesn't me the 3 ppl online couldn't lynch anyone else. In fact, with 3 votes needed for a lynch, you may have lynched just about anyone.

I think it's a bit different when D-day is more of a consideration. I mean, we can ask Ghennan, but I really doubt he would've self voted...

my point stands: you could've voted off Jalan. Stop making it as if you HAD to vote for Hanas, because "there was no choice".

We could've voted off Jalan if Hanas had voted there, yes. He didn't. You'll notice I did mention this as a possibility.

[Trake]

I mean, are you really defending his Ghennan as a perfectly valid move based on the fact that, theoretically, we had enough people that Ghennan could've been lynched, if he'd chosen to vote himself?

All the situations where Ghennan does choose to lynch himself there, are ones where he isn't scum.

Hanas' vote is never going to get a scum Ghennan lynched in this situation, making it utterly pointless for normal purposes.

[Trake]

I mean, it's just a question of why Tapper would make that vote as town. If you've got a good solution I'd love to hear it, because it's baffling to me...

[Fanderay]

Trake, on 01 November 2013 - 08:11 PM, said:

I mean, are you really defending his Ghennan as a perfectly valid move based on the fact that, theoretically, we had enough people that Ghennan could've been lynched, if he'd chosen to vote himself?

All the situations where Ghennan does choose to lynch himself there, are ones where he isn't scum.

Hanas' vote is never going to get a scum Ghennan lynched in this situation, making it utterly pointless for normal purposes.

I'm not defending his vote per se. I'm pointing out your hand-wringing over "we had NO CHOICE, except vote Hanas!". We are speculating right now. Hanas hasn't been the most attentive player. His participation and reaction was often delayed. If you and Ghen both voted Jalan, he may have hammered, based off the same "we need a lynch" mentality. (Ofc, if he thought Ghen was scum, he might not have).

Point is: I don't know. You don't know. You trying to make it seem like it was crystal clear there were no other options. In fact, you haven't proposed this to Hanas. You took his vote as a declaration he'd vote no one else, and rolled with it. You also under-represented the time by 15 minutes, making the matter seem even more urgent that it actually was. You haven't actually tried to speak to Hans after he voted. YOu just threw your hands up, said "well, he's the only lynch possible now!" and rolled with it. I don't think it was the only option, and the fact that you do makes me question your motive

[Fanderay]

Trake, on 01 November 2013 - 08:19 PM, said:

I mean, it's just a question of why Tapper would make that vote as town. If you've got a good solution I'd love to hear it, because it's baffling to me...

he wasn't aware who was and wasn't on? he thought Ghen was scum? Once again, Tapper hasn't been the most attentive player this game, and all his posts prior to the vote were responses to stuff posted at least 12 hours earlier. Fuck, for all I know, he was still reading up when Khell sent him the "you are dead" PM.

[Trake]

Fanderay, on 01 November 2013 - 08:20 PM, said:

Trake, on 01 November 2013 - 08:11 PM, said:

I mean, are you really defending his Ghennan as a perfectly valid move based on the fact that, theoretically, we had enough people that Ghennan could've been lynched, if he'd chosen to vote himself?

All the situations where Ghennan does choose to lynch himself there, are ones where he isn't scum.

Hanas' vote is never going to get a scum Ghennan lynched in this situation, making it utterly pointless for normal purposes.

I'm not defending his vote per se. I'm pointing out your hand-wringing over "we had NO CHOICE, except vote Hanas!". We are speculating right now. Hanas hasn't been the most attentive player. His participation and reaction was often delayed. If you and Ghen both voted Jalan, he may have hammered, based off the same "we need a lynch" mentality. (Ofc, if he thought Ghen was scum, he might not have).

Point is: I don't know. You don't know. You trying to make it seem like it was crystal clear there were no other options. In fact, you haven't proposed this to Hanas. You took his vote as a declaration he'd vote no one else, and rolled with it. You also under-represented the time by 15 minutes, making the matter seem even more urgent that it actually was. You haven't actually tried to speak to Hans after he voted. YOu just threw your hands up, said "well, he's the only lynch possible now!" and rolled with it. I don't think it was the only option, and the fact that you do makes me question your motive

I'm not saying we never had a choice all day, I'm saying his vote set him as the only lynch possible.

Calling it bad play/inattentive is a cop out, he even says:

Hanas, on 31 October 2013 - 08:16 AM, said:

Anyway, a Ghennan vote might not be useful right now but hey, see things from my perspective.

As for "under representing" the time (as opposed to just messing it up ofc) we would've had an extra 15 minutes...Really big deal? Hanas had voted two hours ago, only person who'd said they'd be around I believe was Ghennan.

So actually, there's not even the three of us around to swing to Jalan. There's me and Ghennan online. Ghennan has 1 vote, Hanas has 1, I've voted Fanderay then switched to Hanas.

So yeah, maybe there are circumstances where a Hanas vote wasn't the only option, had people given him the option of voting elsewhere, had you voted somewhere and opened such an option up even, but the circumstances we were actually in weren't remotely close to these circumstances, the circumstances we were in were ones where Hanas was the only option, and that is in large part because he had voted for Ghennan.

[Trake]

Indeed, Hanas himself could have made it such that a Hanas vote wasn't the only option. The point is that he chose not to.

[Fanderay]

Trake, on 01 November 2013 - 08:32 PM, said:

Indeed, Hanas himself could have made it such that a Hanas vote wasn't the only option. The point is that he chose not to.

Because you were watching over his shoulder and you are 100% certain he made an informed decision to vote the only way that would "lead to his lynch", right?

gimme a fucking break. Look, it's ok to say, "we needed a lynch, and he was one of my suspects, so I stand by my decision". But don't try to bullshit me and cry that cruel fates conspired in such a way that Hanas basically begged you to lynch him. Because every single time you stress this "he chose to be lynched" point, my radar spikes. Because that is conjecture you're trying to pass off as fact, since it makes you look better. How about you take the responsibility for your action and just say "look, we didn't have enough votes to vote Fanderay (my no1 choice), so i went with my second suspect?

[Trake]

Fanderay, on 01 November 2013 - 08:26 PM, said:

Trake, on 01 November 2013 - 08:19 PM, said:

I mean, it's just a question of why Tapper would make that vote as town. If you've got a good solution I'd love to hear it, because it's baffling to me...

he wasn't aware who was and wasn't on? he thought Ghen was scum? Once again, Tapper hasn't been the most attentive player this game, and all his posts prior to the vote were responses to stuff posted at least 12 hours earlier. Fuck, for all I know, he was still reading up when Khell sent him the "you are dead" PM.

Sure, there are assumptions we can make that could make him inno (though I thought you didn't like meta reasoning ).

They boil down essentially essentially to either Tapper being stupid, or not being aware of what is happening on thread. This is weak to begin with, and , there is enough evidence that he is well aware of what is going on (he addresses the use of his Ghennan vote, addresses my vote which is a handful of posts before his etc) that it seems even more ludicrous to suggest this.

This is one of the few posts made between his first post and last:

Trake, on 31 October 2013 - 07:31 AM, said:

With Fanderay and Jalan both seeming like they're going to be asleep for the deadline, can't say I see the use in a Ghennan vote at this point...

Also, there is more than a two hour gap between his vote and his death...

Him thinking Ghen is scum is hardly relevant if it's impossible for him to actually get a scum lynch there.

[Fanderay]

It's this fucking "I'm cleaner than clean, it's all everyone else's fault" attitude that pisses me off. And you know who always tries to twist things so that they're never responsible? scum.

If i survive the night, my vote is going on Trake after this little exchange.

I'm out, heading home, probably won't be on much during the weekend. See you guys Monday

[Trake]

Fanderay, on 01 November 2013 - 08:40 PM, said:

Trake, on 01 November 2013 - 08:32 PM, said:

Indeed, Hanas himself could have made it such that a Hanas vote wasn't the only option. The point is that he chose not to.

Because you were watching over his shoulder and you are 100% certain he made an informed decision to vote the only way that would "lead to his lynch", right?

gimme a fucking break. Look, it's ok to say, "we needed a lynch, and he was one of my suspects, so I stand by my decision". But don't try to bullshit me and cry that cruel fates conspired in such a way that Hanas basically begged you to lynch him. Because every single time you stress this "he chose to be lynched" point, my radar spikes. Because that is conjecture you're trying to pass off as fact, since it makes you look better. How about you take the responsibility for your action and just say "look, we didn't have enough votes to vote Fanderay (my no1 choice), so i went with my second suspect?

You make it sound like I'm trying to justify my Hanas vote. I'm not, it was a vote to get a lynch which would've otherwise been impossible.

My point isn't to justify my Hanas vote, it's to point out that Hanas' vote is shady as fuck, in regards to you.

Sure, it's conjecture and I'm making certain assumptions, I'm not saying it's not. However, these assumptions are simply that Tapper's not a moron, and made his vote for rational reasons, and knew what was going on in the thread. These are baseline assumptions for mafia.

[Trake]

Fanderay, on 01 November 2013 - 08:42 PM, said:

It's this fucking "I'm cleaner than clean, it's all everyone else's fault" attitude that pisses me off. And you know who always tries to twist things so that they're never responsible? scum.

If i survive the night, my vote is going on Trake after this little exchange.

I'm out, heading home, probably won't be on much during the weekend. See you guys Monday

Well I'm glad you've talked yourself into it...And for what reason too?

Also "If I live..."

There's a difference between avoiding any responsibility and defending myself from the ludicrous idea that I've been behind de-rails that other people patently had a large role in.

Or in this case, to attack me for pointing out that Hanas' vote just doesn't make sense as town. To which your only response seems to be "Well, maybe Tapper just doesn't make sense". Convincing stuff...

[Trake]

Fanderay, on 01 November 2013 - 08:42 PM, said:

It's this fucking "I'm cleaner than clean, it's all everyone else's fault" attitude that pisses me off. And you know who always tries to twist things so that they're never responsible? scum.

Also, for that matter, town.

And also for that matter, people who genuinely believe they're not to blame for the stupid shit people are trying to pin on them.

I'm not blameless, but there are certain things that just definitively are the result of other people; for example other people being stupidly inactive, not leaving a vote on and reducing lynch choices, making certain lynches impossible by refusing to vote them when your vote would be needed...It's not scummy to try and analyse these things, it's the nature of the game.

You're just working yourself into some sort of froth as a nice excuse to OMGUS when you've got nothing to back you up...

[Ghennan]

Trake, on 01 November 2013 - 07:29 PM, said:

Ghennan, on 01 November 2013 - 07:17 PM, said:

Trake, on 01 November 2013 - 03:50 PM, said:

Fanderay, on 01 November 2013 - 03:21 PM, said:

What is your opinion, Trake?
I'll take lunch in about an hour and do a proper reread of the past 2 days. Right now I've got Ghennan and jalan at about same level of suspicion, with you trailing fairly far behind.

Who are your suspects?

I would be voting you. Simply put, narrowly avoiding lynch so much (particularly Hanas essentially choosing himself as the lynch over Fanderay, in terms of what was possible), just rings alarm bells. Now I don't really like speculating about symps because it's not reliable, but still. That's just hard to overlook. This is also combined with the fact that neither Ghennan nor Jalan have seemed that scummy to me over extended periods.

Really with Ghennan it's just his second vote, and I've thought some of his cases have been a bit flimsy. Unsure on Jalan, he's been hard to read all game, not been very confrontational, though he's definitely turned it on now a bit. Even so, I'm not sure that's exactly scummy, and it's hard to really point at anything else he's done as being scummy either, so really the only thing is general stuff.

No. Fuck you. You started the whole Fanderay issue on day two, and then backed off it. I pushed for a Fanderay lynch day three, and you agreed, and then backed off it. You spent most of day four saying how scummy it was that Fanderay avoided a lynch two days in a row, and then you backed off Fanderay again. You're contributing to Fanderay not getting lynched, and then saying it's suspicious that he isn't getting lynched, and this seems so scummy to me I want to lynch you now.

How did I back off Fanderay day four?

I changed votes once it became apparent that no one else was a possible lynch, because Hanas refused to vote Fanderay. Lock did the same the day before, likewise making the lynch impossible. Am I supposedly behind this?

Or should I just have been more tunnel visioned and not pushed on other suspects?

Possibly. It would've been worse play, but in hindsight might have had a better result.

I'm not going to claim my play has been perfect, because it's not been. But it's pretty ludicrous to suggest that it's some sort of scheme. I'm not blameless in Fanderay not being lynched, maybe he would've been if I'd tunneled in on him more, but there's a lot more going on and it's that which seems suspicious to me.

You really don't think it's odd that the same guy with a total hardon for Fanderay, who then tried to de-rail onto Jalan, yesterday essentially chose to have himself lynched instead of Fanderay? This last piece of evidence is the bit that's really done it for me.

I'd argue you have been more tunnel-visioned about Fanderay than anyone. I stopped suggesting Fanderay as a lynch target after day three, but you have continually suggested that we lynch him, and every day you have brought up the fact that it's suspicious he keeps getting out of being lynched.

You're right about the Hanas vote though, I missed that in my frantic scramble to catch up at the end of the last day. He must have known that Jalan and Fanderay were unlikely to be back in time, and although Jalan had indicated that that he suspected me and would vote that way, Jalan had left with a vote on Hanas. That's peculiar. Also, Hanas didn't post at all after his vote on me, so he wasn't around to ask questions of, and he coudn't/wouldn't have changed his vote, so he apparently wasn't interested in getting a lynch for town. In fact, he said very clearly that he wouldn't vote for Fanderay, even though at the time that was really the only other option that was likely to get a lynch at that point, and interestingly, also would have cleared Hanas from any suggestion that he was a symp.

[Trake]

Ghennan, on 01 November 2013 - 09:05 PM, said:

Trake, on 01 November 2013 - 07:29 PM, said:

Ghennan, on 01 November 2013 - 07:17 PM, said:

Trake, on 01 November 2013 - 03:50 PM, said:

Fanderay, on 01 November 2013 - 03:21 PM, said:

What is your opinion, Trake?
I'll take lunch in about an hour and do a proper reread of the past 2 days. Right now I've got Ghennan and jalan at about same level of suspicion, with you trailing fairly far behind.

Who are your suspects?

I would be voting you. Simply put, narrowly avoiding lynch so much (particularly Hanas essentially choosing himself as the lynch over Fanderay, in terms of what was possible), just rings alarm bells. Now I don't really like speculating about symps because it's not reliable, but still. That's just hard to overlook. This is also combined with the fact that neither Ghennan nor Jalan have seemed that scummy to me over extended periods.

Really with Ghennan it's just his second vote, and I've thought some of his cases have been a bit flimsy. Unsure on Jalan, he's been hard to read all game, not been very confrontational, though he's definitely turned it on now a bit. Even so, I'm not sure that's exactly scummy, and it's hard to really point at anything else he's done as being scummy either, so really the only thing is general stuff.

No. Fuck you. You started the whole Fanderay issue on day two, and then backed off it. I pushed for a Fanderay lynch day three, and you agreed, and then backed off it. You spent most of day four saying how scummy it was that Fanderay avoided a lynch two days in a row, and then you backed off Fanderay again. You're contributing to Fanderay not getting lynched, and then saying it's suspicious that he isn't getting lynched, and this seems so scummy to me I want to lynch you now.

How did I back off Fanderay day four?

I changed votes once it became apparent that no one else was a possible lynch, because Hanas refused to vote Fanderay. Lock did the same the day before, likewise making the lynch impossible. Am I supposedly behind this?

Or should I just have been more tunnel visioned and not pushed on other suspects?

Possibly. It would've been worse play, but in hindsight might have had a better result.

I'm not going to claim my play has been perfect, because it's not been. But it's pretty ludicrous to suggest that it's some sort of scheme. I'm not blameless in Fanderay not being lynched, maybe he would've been if I'd tunneled in on him more, but there's a lot more going on and it's that which seems suspicious to me.

You really don't think it's odd that the same guy with a total hardon for Fanderay, who then tried to de-rail onto Jalan, yesterday essentially chose to have himself lynched instead of Fanderay? This last piece of evidence is the bit that's really done it for me.

I'd argue you have been more tunnel-visioned about Fanderay than anyone. I stopped suggesting Fanderay as a lynch target after day three, but you have continually suggested that we lynch him, and every day you have brought up the fact that it's suspicious he keeps getting out of being lynched.

You're right about the Hanas vote though, I missed that in my frantic scramble to catch up at the end of the last day. He must have known that Jalan and Fanderay were unlikely to be back in time, and although Jalan had indicated that that he suspected me and would vote that way, Jalan had left with a vote on Hanas. That's peculiar. Also, Hanas didn't post at all after his vote on me, so he wasn't around to ask questions of, and he coudn't/wouldn't have changed his vote, so he apparently wasn't interested in getting a lynch for town. In fact, he said very clearly that he wouldn't vote for Fanderay, even though at the time that was really the only other option that was likely to get a lynch at that point, and interestingly, also would have cleared Hanas from any suggestion that he was a symp.

Yeah but as a counterpoint...maybe Tapper's just stupid and or/hadn't read the thread before making his detailed posts.

And I do think it's suspicious that Fanderay keeps getting out of being lynched. Yesterday is really the prime example, for the reasons you've picked out. And it would be Hanas too...

[Fanderay]

Trake, on 01 November 2013 - 08:59 PM, said:

Fanderay, on 01 November 2013 - 08:42 PM, said:

It's this fucking "I'm cleaner than clean, it's all everyone else's fault" attitude that pisses me off. And you know who always tries to twist things so that they're never responsible? scum.

Also, for that matter, town.

And also for that matter, people who genuinely believe they're not to blame for the stupid shit people are trying to pin on them.

I'm not blameless, but there are certain things that just definitively are the result of other people; for example other people being stupidly inactive, not leaving a vote on and reducing lynch choices, making certain lynches impossible by refusing to vote them when your vote would be needed...It's not scummy to try and analyse these things, it's the nature of the game.

You're just working yourself into some sort of froth as a nice excuse to OMGUS when you've got nothing to back you up...

On the bus, nothing else to do so I feel obliged to respond.
I'm resigned to the fact that aftert faffing about for 3 more days, you will, eventually lynch me. And lose. At that point it will require everyone to vote me, so in.a way, my any vote except a self-vote would be a omgus vote.

So, no I'm not trying to work myself into a froth. I genuinely salute whomever scum decided keeping me around this long would be a good bet: they were right.
I'm not frothing, but I stand by what I said: it's stupid and scummy to attribute what happened exclusively to circumstances.

[Trake]

Fanderay, on 01 November 2013 - 09:19 PM, said:

Trake, on 01 November 2013 - 08:59 PM, said:

Fanderay, on 01 November 2013 - 08:42 PM, said:

It's this fucking "I'm cleaner than clean, it's all everyone else's fault" attitude that pisses me off. And you know who always tries to twist things so that they're never responsible? scum.

Also, for that matter, town.

And also for that matter, people who genuinely believe they're not to blame for the stupid shit people are trying to pin on them.

I'm not blameless, but there are certain things that just definitively are the result of other people; for example other people being stupidly inactive, not leaving a vote on and reducing lynch choices, making certain lynches impossible by refusing to vote them when your vote would be needed...It's not scummy to try and analyse these things, it's the nature of the game.

You're just working yourself into some sort of froth as a nice excuse to OMGUS when you've got nothing to back you up...

On the bus, nothing else to do so I feel obliged to respond.
I'm resigned to the fact that aftert faffing about for 3 more days, you will, eventually lynch me. And lose. At that point it will require everyone to vote me, so in.a way, my any vote except a self-vote would be a omgus vote.

So, no I'm not trying to work myself into a froth. I genuinely salute whomever scum decided keeping me around this long would be a good bet: they were right.
I'm not frothing, but I stand by what I said: it's stupid and scummy to attribute what happened exclusively to circumstances.

I'm not saying there aren't other factors in your survival. If more people had been around it would've been a whole different question, if the game had been more active you'd probably have been gone way earlier, etc etc.

But looking at the circumstances that did arise around Hanas' vote in particular, it seems to strongly suggest something scummy going on. It is possible he just wasn't properly aware of the thread, but I just don't buy this as an argument (also doesn't seem that way, reading his posts).

As for any vote being OMGUS, that's not an excuse for ridiculous reasoning

[Ghennan]

This whole spat between Fanderay and Trake is now leaning me more towards Fanderay.

Fanderay tries to claim that Trake is misrepresenting the situation by saying that Hanas left us with only one way to secure a lynch. But if we consider the reality of the situation:

Trake was around, and had voted Fanderay
Jalan had left, and said he wouldn't be returning before the end of the day, and had voted for Hanas
Fanderay had left for the end of the day without leaving a vote (for whatever reason)
Hanas came on and voted for me, says he won't vote either for himself or for Fanderay, and then left again.
Trake switches his vote to Hanas

At this stage, with Jalan and Fanderay gone for the day, and Hanas saying he won't change his vote, the only other options were Trake and myself, and both those options would have involved either one of us self-voting, which as Trake points out above, would have either meant that the person self-voting wasn't scum, or that we would have spent all of today trying to decide whether the person who refused to self-vote was scum or town who was trying to avert the end of the game. If Hanas had voted for Jalan, then we probably would have ended up lynching him. As it was, Hanas came on, defended himself against the case that Jalan had proposed, gave a single post that suggested a connection between myself and Trake, stated that he wouldn't vote either for himself or for Fanderay, voted for me while seeming to indicate that he was more suspicious of Trake, and then left again.

In fact, Fanderay seems to be making more assumptions about Hanas' play than Trake has, which suggests that he's trying to paint Trake into a corner.

Fanderay, on 01 November 2013 - 08:26 PM, said:

Trake, on 01 November 2013 - 08:19 PM, said:

I mean, it's just a question of why Tapper would make that vote as town. If you've got a good solution I'd love to hear it, because it's baffling to me...

he wasn't aware who was and wasn't on? he thought Ghen was scum? Once again, Tapper hasn't been the most attentive player this game, and all his posts prior to the vote were responses to stuff posted at least 12 hours earlier. Fuck, for all I know, he was still reading up when Khell sent him the "you are dead" PM.

He said he was doing a DKT style catch up, which would indicate that if he had any more to say then he would have continued to post about it up until the end of the day (providing he had the time). In any case, I would usually expect that Tapper would have at least skimmed the thread before posting, and Trake and I had been the only ones posting in the four hours before Hanas returned, so I think it's reaching to suggest that he wasn't aware of who was around.

Also, Tapper wasn't the most present player this game, but I don't think it's true to say that he hasn't been attentive, when he has posted his posts have been well considered, and generally up to date.