[Ghennan]

Fanderay, on 29 October 2013 - 12:43 AM, said:

[snip]
On phone, cuz bandwidth at home iz deaded. Next two weeks'll be a bitch to play,
I'm just gonna straight up say that I didn't "just" jump on Ultama's Grasp train. For those interested enough in the game to actually read and not blindly follow whatever Ghennan tells you you will see that he is misrepresenting me on 2 major points:
1: when I voted him, my reason wasn't "because he leaves and doesn't come back", but rather because both votes he dropped up till then we're put without much explanation on whatever train happened to be in vogue on thread at the time. 2: when I voted Grasp, I didn't "just" vote him. I skimmed the case Ultama made on him. Then I did a re-read. Then I voted. I sure as fuck wasn't gonna be a not-hammer vote on my own train, not when it was based on such shitty reasoning, and not when ppl like Cast were voting for me, without even knowing what the case on me was ( I called him out on that earlier)
So yes, ghennan is lying on a number of points here. Which brings me back to the case I made yesterday.

1. Your case on me took two votes out of context with only brief explanation about what exactly you found scummy about them. I defended my vote on you earlier, and the first vote you quoted was a day one vote. There just wasn't enough information on the thread to make a totally informed vote.

2. The fact remains that it was convenient for you that Ultama came back and gave you another train to jump on, with only a few hours to go in the day.

[Path-Shaper]

It is Day 3. 11 hours and 13 minutes remaining.

7 players alive: Cast, Fanderay, Ghennan, Hanas, Jalan, Lock, Trake

4 votes to lynch, 4 votes to go to night.


1 vote Fanderay (Ghennan)


Players not voted: Cast, Fanderay, Ghennan, Hanas, Jalan, Lock, Trake

[Lock]

all the talkers are gone apparently, since nothing happened yesterday

I'm busy as a beaver but I will have to make some time somehow to see who I want to vote for

[Cast]

Upon closer inspection of how votes went yesterday, it seems to me we should be looking at Fanderay more closely. It seems to me that the swing away from Fanderay was way too easy, whether or not I was instrumental in that.

[Jalan]

Apologies for the late re-arrival. As usual, Monday was not a fun time this week.

[Jalan]

Ghennan, on 28 October 2013 - 10:45 PM, said:

So, here's what's been bothering me about the previous day's voting. Fanderay starts getting some heat for being connected to Hanas. Hanas arrives, flails a bit, and then starts a totally new train on a "coaster".

Hanas, on 24 October 2013 - 01:23 PM, said:

You know what... let's just vote a coaster. This situation is damned unpleasant, and the mod-kills invite trouble by following too quickly with no info from them. In the current environment I'd rather lynch someone on whom I have absolutely no read whatsoever and who seems to like to keep it that way, despite a decent post count, than lynching someone on who some shades of grey are gathered and who at the least is being discussed.

Vote Jalan.

Now, without going in to my personal vendetta about low-poster witchhunts (seriously, voting low posters gives us no information!), Hanas accuses Jalan because Hanas has no read on him. But if we review Jalan's posting up to this point, he has asked a lot of questions and shared a few ideas about Ultama's crazy posting, suggested he is a symp and voted MO, which doesn't really look like coasting to me.


Next, Fanderay arrives, and to be fair he can't really defend himself against the case and votes, because it's almost entirely based on Hanas' behaviour. But his next action is to start yet another train, and I'm not entirely sure what his justification is.

Fanderay, on 24 October 2013 - 02:26 PM, said:

Everyone's being such busy worker bees.

just for the hell of it, here's the most cumulatively scummy player in my books. (after Ultama, but the problem with his case is that it is at least partially grounded in MO, and MO is now a perma-question-mark)

Ghennan, on 22 October 2013 - 11:18 PM, said:

Wow, that post is ringing so many bells for me. The self-pity, the 'acceptance' if we lynch him, the 'lynch me if you have to' schtick. It's making me want to vote for him more.

I'll be around on and off for the next few hours, but I'll vote now to see if we can get something going.

vote ultama

he never came back after that.

Ghennan, on 24 October 2013 - 10:06 AM, said:

So, after a catch-up, I'm not really sure why Jalan stuck in my mind, but on a re-read I don't find him particularly scummy. And Cast has posted basically nothing. Monok's modkill has kind of taken the wind out of my sails, I was fairly sure we were on to something with Monok and Ultama, and suddenly it's all up in the air again.

Grasp is ringing some bells for me, and that drive-by vote was pretty scummy, but I need more time to articulate what it is that bothers me, and right now I need to go to bed.

I'm leaving my vote on Fanderay, because I think the link is interesting, and I need more time to decide how I feel about Ultama.

Vote Fanderay.

Night all!

well, he's yet to come back. we shall see

remove vote

vote Ghennan

So apparently I'm scummy because on day one I said I would return and I didn't, and then on day two I voted for him?

This then leaves the vote count looking like this:

Path-Shaper, on 24 October 2013 - 03:03 PM, said:

It is Day 2. 2 hours and 37 minutes remaining.


9 players alive: Cast, Fanderay, Ghennan, Grasp, Hanas, Jalan, Lock, Trake, Ultama

5 votes to lynch, 5 votes to go to night.

2 votes Fanderay: Ghennan, Grasp
1 vote Jalan: Hanas
1 vote Ghennan: Fanderay
1 vote Ultama: Jalan

Players not voted: Cast, Lock, Trake, Ultama

That is a pretty big voting split, where previously there had only been one target suddenly there are four. Then later Ultama arrives, makes a case against Grasp and votes for him, and Fanderay immediately jumps on that train, and suddenly it takes off.

So this leaves me wondering if maybe Ultama was the symp after all. Up unitl that point, Ultama had said basically nothing about Grasp. But he returns to see that Fanderay is getting a bit of heat, and provides a new target that a few other people have already indicated suspicion about. Fanderay can't jump on Hanas' vote because they have already been linked, but Ultama's vote is a safe bet because they haven't been linked, and that way they can get an alternate train running.


This is seriously scummy.

Vote Fanderay

If Fanderay is scum, risking getting lynched and makes a desperate new train, then Ultama puts the next vote onto it to give it a swing, why would the scum then kill Ultama? Wouldn't they suspect that Ultama is their symp?

Doesn't make any sense, IMO.

[Jalan]

I do agree with Hanas that Trake bears some looking at today.

Trake has been extremely active and aggressive, putting lots of votes down for small reasons.

It's common for town to look for scum amongst the "coasters", the low-posters or the "middle of the road" players, because those used to be the best hiding places for scum. They still work as hiding places now - though not as well as in mafia 20 - but we've also seen in the last generation scum hide by being very active, enabling them to avoid all the traditional suspicion.

This game so far shows the validity of that, as Trake really hasn't had much public suspicion cast on him at all. If he is scum he's just had to keep up the pace of posting his many suspicions and vote hopping, but otherwise has had no pressure.

Of course, he absolutely could be just a townie doing the same thing. But the interesting thing to me is that day 2 was very spread out in terms of trains - at some point we had 8 votes cast on 5 players. That's a tricky situation for scum, because you would want to sound convinced by a good case, but at the same time want to make sure the lynch succeeds. You would not want to be seen as suspicious for jumping around from train to train, nor would you want to be switching to the biggest train with a very weak justification for why you've changed your mind from your previous target. Lastly, if the day ends with you being a lone vote on another player, it is very visible and you may end up having to deal with defending yourself about it or at least incorporating it into your behaviour for the rest of the game.

So overall, days like that can be very tricky for scum, and IMO it's when you might see them treading very carefully.

What's interesting to me, then, is that Trake was very happy to vote hop around a lot on day 1, and early on day 2 when there were only a couple trains he hopped onto MO, then onto Fanderay. But once we got up to four trains existing, he removed his vote and didn't vote again all day.

[Fanderay]

i'm pretty crazy busy at work again.

I see people are looking at me (again)

This is the only defence I will offer:

People are interested in voting me, because "too many people were resistant to the idea of lynching me yesterday"--that is the primary argument, yes?

I cannot rebutt that presumption, BUT:

The initial case on me was weak, and based on circumstantial evidence. I can't fault people for disliking it.

Now people are gonna vote me off based on even more circumstantial stuff. Godspeed if you do. Then take a good look at who's pushing.

[Trake]

Jalan, on 29 October 2013 - 02:41 PM, said:

I do agree with Hanas that Trake bears some looking at today.

Trake has been extremely active and aggressive, putting lots of votes down for small reasons.

It's common for town to look for scum amongst the "coasters", the low-posters or the "middle of the road" players, because those used to be the best hiding places for scum. They still work as hiding places now - though not as well as in mafia 20 - but we've also seen in the last generation scum hide by being very active, enabling them to avoid all the traditional suspicion.

This game so far shows the validity of that, as Trake really hasn't had much public suspicion cast on him at all. If he is scum he's just had to keep up the pace of posting his many suspicions and vote hopping, but otherwise has had no pressure.

Of course, he absolutely could be just a townie doing the same thing. But the interesting thing to me is that day 2 was very spread out in terms of trains - at some point we had 8 votes cast on 5 players. That's a tricky situation for scum, because you would want to sound convinced by a good case, but at the same time want to make sure the lynch succeeds. You would not want to be seen as suspicious for jumping around from train to train, nor would you want to be switching to the biggest train with a very weak justification for why you've changed your mind from your previous target. Lastly, if the day ends with you being a lone vote on another player, it is very visible and you may end up having to deal with defending yourself about it or at least incorporating it into your behaviour for the rest of the game.

So overall, days like that can be very tricky for scum, and IMO it's when you might see them treading very carefully.

What's interesting to me, then, is that Trake was very happy to vote hop around a lot on day 1, and early on day 2 when there were only a couple trains he hopped onto MO, then onto Fanderay. But once we got up to four trains existing, he removed his vote and didn't vote again all day.

The beginning of your argument is barely even worth addressing. Scum could be low posters, or they could be highposters? Who'd have thought! Both have happened. And vocal players traditionally do get heat for it, because they give people something to go on that low posters don't.

You also say that scum "want to make sure the lynch succeeds". Why?

The reasons that someone would be happier vote hopping earlier on than late in the day are incredibly obvious, and weak reasoning for scumminess.

Edit for grammar.

This post has been edited by Trake: 29 October 2013 - 03:28 PM

[Trake]

It's also possibly D-Day if we started with 3 scum, worth being aware of.

[Hanas]

Ghennan, on 28 October 2013 - 10:45 PM, said:

So, here's what's been bothering me about the previous day's voting. Fanderay starts getting some heat for being connected to Hanas. Hanas arrives, flails a bit, and then starts a totally new train on a "coaster".

Hanas, on 24 October 2013 - 01:23 PM, said:

You know what... let's just vote a coaster. This situation is damned unpleasant, and the mod-kills invite trouble by following too quickly with no info from them. In the current environment I'd rather lynch someone on whom I have absolutely no read whatsoever and who seems to like to keep it that way, despite a decent post count, than lynching someone on who some shades of grey are gathered and who at the least is being discussed.

Vote Jalan.

Now, without going in to my personal vendetta about low-poster witchhunts (seriously, voting low posters gives us no information!), Hanas accuses Jalan because Hanas has no read on him. But if we review Jalan's posting up to this point, he has asked a lot of questions and shared a few ideas about Ultama's crazy posting, suggested he is a symp and voted MO, which doesn't really look like coasting to me.


Next, Fanderay arrives, and to be fair he can't really defend himself against the case and votes, because it's almost entirely based on Hanas' behaviour. But his next action is to start yet another train, and I'm not entirely sure what his justification is.

Fanderay, on 24 October 2013 - 02:26 PM, said:

Everyone's being such busy worker bees.

just for the hell of it, here's the most cumulatively scummy player in my books. (after Ultama, but the problem with his case is that it is at least partially grounded in MO, and MO is now a perma-question-mark)

Ghennan, on 22 October 2013 - 11:18 PM, said:

Wow, that post is ringing so many bells for me. The self-pity, the 'acceptance' if we lynch him, the 'lynch me if you have to' schtick. It's making me want to vote for him more.

I'll be around on and off for the next few hours, but I'll vote now to see if we can get something going.

vote ultama

he never came back after that.

Ghennan, on 24 October 2013 - 10:06 AM, said:

So, after a catch-up, I'm not really sure why Jalan stuck in my mind, but on a re-read I don't find him particularly scummy. And Cast has posted basically nothing. Monok's modkill has kind of taken the wind out of my sails, I was fairly sure we were on to something with Monok and Ultama, and suddenly it's all up in the air again.

Grasp is ringing some bells for me, and that drive-by vote was pretty scummy, but I need more time to articulate what it is that bothers me, and right now I need to go to bed.

I'm leaving my vote on Fanderay, because I think the link is interesting, and I need more time to decide how I feel about Ultama.

Vote Fanderay.

Night all!

well, he's yet to come back. we shall see

remove vote

vote Ghennan

So apparently I'm scummy because on day one I said I would return and I didn't, and then on day two I voted for him?

This then leaves the vote count looking like this:

Path-Shaper, on 24 October 2013 - 03:03 PM, said:

It is Day 2. 2 hours and 37 minutes remaining.


9 players alive: Cast, Fanderay, Ghennan, Grasp, Hanas, Jalan, Lock, Trake, Ultama

5 votes to lynch, 5 votes to go to night.

2 votes Fanderay: Ghennan, Grasp
1 vote Jalan: Hanas
1 vote Ghennan: Fanderay
1 vote Ultama: Jalan

Players not voted: Cast, Lock, Trake, Ultama

That is a pretty big voting split, where previously there had only been one target suddenly there are four. Then later Ultama arrives, makes a case against Grasp and votes for him, and Fanderay immediately jumps on that train, and suddenly it takes off.

So this leaves me wondering if maybe Ultama was the symp after all. Up unitl that point, Ultama had said basically nothing about Grasp. But he returns to see that Fanderay is getting a bit of heat, and provides a new target that a few other people have already indicated suspicion about. Fanderay can't jump on Hanas' vote because they have already been linked, but Ultama's vote is a safe bet because they haven't been linked, and that way they can get an alternate train running.


This is seriously scummy.

Vote Fanderay

So your case for last day's main lynch target (which came from a shitty association case) is that he didn't show an appetite for dying but voted for someone else, combined with an all fresh and new association case?
If Ultama is the suspected symp, why would he be killed? Imho, the reason Tatts was killed was because he was PIed by association already by the meta-using part of the thread, thus giving us no new info.

I think this is incredibly lazy work and it comes off as scum revitalising an earlier case with some new arguments. The fact that Cast is very cautiously offering support without a vote is making me suspicious as well.


Vote Ghennan.

Sounds like you're setting someone up.

[Cast]

Jalan, on 29 October 2013 - 02:05 PM, said:

If Fanderay is scum, risking getting lynched and makes a desperate new train, then Ultama puts the next vote onto it to give it a swing, why would the scum then kill Ultama? Wouldn't they suspect that Ultama is their symp?

Doesn't make any sense, IMO.

This is a very good point, and is making me rethink my position on Fanderay, at least a little. I'm still suspicious, but I'm going to remain cautious about dropping my vote today, as I'm hoping I'll be able to pay a bit more attention to the thread today.

[Path-Shaper]

It is Day 3. 4 hours and 53 minutes remaining.

7 players alive: Cast, Fanderay, Ghennan, Hanas, Jalan, Lock, Trake

4 votes to lynch, 4 votes to go to night.


1 vote Fanderay (Ghennan)
1 vote Ghennan (Hanas)


Players not voted: Cast, Fanderay, Jalan, Lock, Trake

[Fanderay]

Path-Shaper, on 29 October 2013 - 05:26 PM, said:

It is Day 3. 4 hours and 53 minutes remaining.

7 players alive: Cast, Fanderay, Ghennan, Hanas, Jalan, Lock, Trake

4 votes to lynch, 4 votes to go to night.


1 vote Fanderay (Ghennan)
1 vote Ghennan (Hanas)


Players not voted: Cast, Fanderay, Jalan, Lock, Trake

wowee

my preference is obviously not myself, especially if Trake is correct about D-Day.

[Trake]

At the moment I'm torn between Lock and Fanderay as my main two. Fanderay because he was de-railed off with a very small amount of time left, onto a much worse lynch (info wise), and that's always suspicious.

Lock for ludicrous coasting all game. It's hard to have a read on several people, Cast hasn't posted much (he's also been middle of the road when about), Hanas hasn't been under much pressure. But I think Lock is the worst for coasting, based on his own play.

[Fanderay]

Trake, on 29 October 2013 - 05:45 PM, said:

At the moment I'm torn between Lock and Fanderay as my main two. Fanderay because he was de-railed off with a very small amount of time left, onto a much worse lynch (info wise), and that's always suspicious.

Lock for ludicrous coasting all game. It's hard to have a read on several people, Cast hasn't posted much (he's also been middle of the road when about), Hanas hasn't been under much pressure. But I think Lock is the worst for coasting, based on his own play.

Lock is a smooth bastard. but are enough around to lynch?

[Trake]

Ghennan, on 29 October 2013 - 03:16 AM, said:

At no point did I say that Fanderay's vote was OMGUS. Unless you were saying that my case on him was OMGUS?

To me, the below reads as essentially accusing him of OMGUS. It says he's saying you're scummy because you voted him day two.

Ghennan, on 28 October 2013 - 10:45 PM, said:

So apparently I'm scummy because on day one I said I would return and I didn't, and then on day two I voted for him?

[Trake]

Fanderay, on 29 October 2013 - 05:47 PM, said:

Trake, on 29 October 2013 - 05:45 PM, said:

At the moment I'm torn between Lock and Fanderay as my main two. Fanderay because he was de-railed off with a very small amount of time left, onto a much worse lynch (info wise), and that's always suspicious.

Lock for ludicrous coasting all game. It's hard to have a read on several people, Cast hasn't posted much (he's also been middle of the road when about), Hanas hasn't been under much pressure. But I think Lock is the worst for coasting, based on his own play.

Lock is a smooth bastard. but are enough around to lynch?

Judging by the way this game has been going, probability says unlikely...

[Trake]

Looking back at the trainL

Cast, on 25 October 2013 - 06:51 PM, said:

I'll switch over to Grasp to get the lynch.



remove vote

vote Grasp



I do think that Fanderay and Hanas need to be watched closely though.

This is L-1, and an important switch (changes from 3-3 to 4-2).

With around an hour and a half left, Lock tells us this:

Lock, on 25 October 2013 - 06:51 PM, said:

I will be around on & off

Ghennan then forgets to remove, so his vote isn't counted. And then we get this from lock (15 minutes left in the game).

Lock, on 25 October 2013 - 08:13 PM, said:

what's the deal

Does he think that maybe it might be a good time to vote?

Nope.

Unless I'm mistaken, Lock has yet to vote.

Any pressure he has put on has been in the form of extremely vague questions/statements that then aren't followed up.

[Trake]

Hanas, on 29 October 2013 - 03:50 PM, said:

So your case for last day's main lynch target (which came from a shitty association case) is that he didn't show an appetite for dying but voted for someone else, combined with an all fresh and new association case?
If Ultama is the suspected symp, why would he be killed? Imho, the reason Tatts was killed was because he was PIed by association already by the meta-using part of the thread, thus giving us no new info.

I think this is incredibly lazy work and it comes off as scum revitalising an earlier case with some new arguments. The fact that Cast is very cautiously offering support without a vote is making me suspicious as well.


Vote Ghennan.

Sounds like you're setting someone up.

Got to say I don't like this vote either. Most of the reasoning is simply arguments for why Ghennan's case on Fanderay is bad, not why Ghennan seems scummy. He also makes sure to put down the initial reasons for voting Fanderay.

He then backs this up with some fun WIFOM kill speculation, and ties in Cast for good measure.

I don't think Ghennan's reasoning is wonderful, but it seems a bit of a stretch to say that this makes him scummy, and it's pretty interesting that it happens to be in regards to a case on Fanderay. Is this the only case this game to be a bit of a stretch? Do town only make good cases now?

Edit for clarification (making it clear who I meant when saying "his").

Hanas is seeming shiftier and shifter, and always in relation to Fanderay. Symp cases are always tricky though, and fake symping is possible...

This post has been edited by Trake: 29 October 2013 - 06:21 PM