[the broken]

Hahaha...because as we all know, ST and Cots always play fair.

[Abyss]

Nevyn, on 10 May 2016 - 03:53 PM, said:

First, a basic issue. Even if they needed Laseen to kill them, she didn't know that. So she had bad intent towards them, and even if they took advantage they don't have to like it.

To an extent they always counted on it. Kel held a grudge, Dancer less so.

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... Was Laseen killing them always the plan...

I would say so because sacrifice is an essential element of ascension, and an Empire is a hell of a sacrifice.

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As the series progresses from GotM, everyone's motives for even early moves become more complicated in retrospect. But it is not hard to see ST and Cots being bitter.

I think that Kel did, and Cots let him work it through knowing he wouldn't get over it any other way.

As far as we know as of where NoK stands in the reading order.

Axey, on 14 May 2016 - 08:48 AM, said:

I like it how Dancer states to Temper that they didnt "want such an unwielding entity. A kingdom, an empire. These are just symbols. Kellanved and me see much further. We've always been after greater things". However, I think their reasons for letting loose the hounds in GOTM was the fact Laseen had the foresight and power to avoid their trap in Mock's Hold and frankly made them look foolish. Arrogance is the key here.

Not making them look foolish, but the sacrifice would never have looked real if they didn't appear to die, which meant whoever was in charge - Laseen - had to be relied upon to give it a good shot.

Maybe she tried TOO hard.

...or maybe there was more going on there, but that's RAFO...

Kanese S, on 14 May 2016 - 06:17 PM, said:

...I think it stung them that she was so ready to betray them and take them out. Also they probably saw literally filling the room with otataral dust as a cheap, dirty trick.

I think they counted on Laseen going full out in the effort, and taking out Kel's magic would be a logical step.

It's what they would do

[Wu ammanas]

I think one thing we are forgetting is the kellenvad attitude to power. If you read later books by erikson. You find out that there was a difference in laseen attitude to power and kellenved's own. My belief is kellenced never truthfully wanted to leave Malazan throne. Granted he wanted to ascend and occupy Shadow's throne, but he well might be looking for a way to occupy Malazan throne as well too. For example he never released his control over the first throne even after ascension despite the fact that only a mortal could control that throne. The guy was just that devious. Read about him in dancer lament, deadhouse landing and kellenved reach and you will at least love his genius even though he was plain crazy sometimes