[Haneybd87]

HoosierDaddy, on 14 September 2013 - 08:24 PM, said:

Haneybd87, on 14 September 2013 - 08:04 PM, said:

But they seem to be different versions of the same thing. Hence my confusion.

In what way? The Holds tend to be elder magic.

Not completely true, there are warrens and holds of the same thing, like Kurald Emurlahn, Omtose Phellack and Tellann.

This post has been edited by Haneybd87: 15 September 2013 - 03:00 AM

[HoosierDaddy]

Haneybd87, on 15 September 2013 - 02:58 AM, said:

HoosierDaddy, on 14 September 2013 - 08:24 PM, said:

Haneybd87, on 14 September 2013 - 08:04 PM, said:

But they seem to be different versions of the same thing. Hence my confusion.

In what way? The Holds tend to be elder magic.

Not completely true, there are warrens and holds of the same thing, like Kurald Emurlahn, Omtose Phellack and Tellann.

All three of which are elder magic. Holds came first and then evolved into warrens. Generally.

[Haneybd87]

But then why are they warrens now and how are they different? Someone said this would become clear but it's still very murky.

[worry]

The most basic answer is there are Warrens now because K'rul made a deal with the Eleint to create pathways (ie warrens) for humans to more easily access various flavors of sorcery, as per MOI info. But this should be seen as one step in an evolution, and not even the first step.

Parallel, but not necessarily concurrently, Holds evolved into Houses, as humans became more sophisticated in channeling raw power into more wieldy forms, with K'rul as conduit. Elder magic either required blood sacrifice to Elder Gods (who would grant Elder Warren magic) or a more dangerous, less shaped control through Hold magic (represented by Tiles rather than the Deck of Dragons, and practiced by Quru Kan for instance), and before that, even more primitive shapings of magic.

Of course, these terms are occasionally used interchangeably by characters in the same way all language becomes mish-mashed (especially because these terms are used both for places and power sources, AND metaphysical pathways to those places/power sources), but I think you have to think of Warrens (of any type) as being pathways or channels to sorcery, while Wandering/Holds/Houses/etc. are developments in the ability for mortals to shape that magic. Roughly.

This post has been edited by worry: 16 September 2013 - 01:10 AM

[Haneybd87]

That was much more enlightening. Thanks, Worry.

[Abyss]

And just to complicate things, the Houses exist as a sort of form of forced order on the various powers, with certain rules that are not entirely clear but affect how the various powers deal with each other.

At a guess, just based on what we know up to MT, the Houses and the rules prevent the serious powerhouses among the gods and ascendants from outright challenging each other except in rare moments when a convergence leaves them no choice. We learned a little about this when Paran was debating whether to approve the House of Chains in MoI and events that followed in HoC.

The Deck of Dragons, and the Letheri Tiles, reflect how the various influences (aspects) of the Houses or Holds and other powers are affecting events. Where this gets really fuzzy is where a card or tile can refer to an individual god or ascendent, or a another person being affected by that god or immortal, OR their aspect, just to really mess with things.

You'll keep getting more information about all this as the books progress. It's actually a really interesting element of the series.

[Kanese S's]

I'd rep both Worrywort and Abyss, except that I'm out of positive rep, for their explanations. Sorry guys.

I would also add that further complicating the magic system is the fact that the rise of newer systems of wielding sorcery does not necessarily negate or fully replace older systems or render them unusable. Hence, you can have several different kinds of sorcery side by side, though I don't think often practiced by the same person. An example would be, if I recall correctly, the magic system used by the Wickans in Deadhouse Gates, which calls upon the spirits of the land and such rather than really using warrens much (if at all; I can't remember specifically if they did or not).

[Abyss]

Kanese S, on 16 September 2013 - 08:21 AM, said:

....An example would be, if I recall correctly, the magic system used by the Wickans in Deadhouse Gates, which calls upon the spirits of the land and such rather than really using warrens much (if at all; I can't remember specifically if they did or not).

The Wickan shamans/mages insisted they were using older spirit magic, but i had a pet theory that they may have been using the spirits as go-betweens to access warrens, similar to the way QB used Talamandas to access Hood's Warren through a filter. It's slower and less certain which would support the theory that 'modern' warren use is a more refined version of the same thing. Otoh, the Wickans had access to magic while the CG was poisoning the Warrens, so there are pros/cons.

[Siergiej]

I think Crippled God's poisoning of the warrens was effective only in Pannion Domin. It wouldn't affect Wickans (in Seven Cities or Quon Tali) anyway

[D'rek]

Siergiej, on 16 September 2013 - 10:08 PM, said:

I think Crippled God's poisoning of the warrens was effective only in Pannion Domin. It wouldn't affect Wickans (in Seven Cities or Quon Tali) anyway

Yeah, Kulp, Kamist Reloe, etc are awarren-users and were not affected by the CG's poisoning in DG.

[Gnaw]

Siergiej, on 16 September 2013 - 10:08 PM, said:

I think Crippled God's poisoning of the warrens was effective only in Pannion Domin. It wouldn't affect Wickans (in Seven Cities or Quon Tali) anyway

D, on 17 September 2013 - 08:31 PM, said:

Siergiej, on 16 September 2013 - 10:08 PM, said:

I think Crippled God's poisoning of the warrens was effective only in Pannion Domin. It wouldn't affect Wickans (in Seven Cities or Quon Tali) anyway

Yeah, Kulp, Kamist Reloe, etc are awarren-users and were not affected by the CG's poisoning in DG.

Heh. All y'all just made a couple of things click into place for me. I handed rep out like candy. But then you two went and ruined it. Huh? WTF are you talking about? That pretty much directly contradicts a thought somewhat later in the series:

Spoiler

Gods, this is going to work....All right, so maybe I can't take all the credit.
Maybe.
For modesty's sake, if I ever talk about it, I mean. But here, in my head...I did it.

I realize that contradictions are like the timeline but the poisoning of the warrens being confined to the Pannion Domin?? Risking the unleashing of nerd wrath here, but I want my points back from those two.





(Abyss, the OP finished the book and therefore the remainder of the thread isn't spoilers for him. But what about the next person who wanders in and doesn't stop at post #16. Maybe a warning stuck onto post 15 or 16 would be in order?)

[worry]

I don't know how to respond to that without spoiling, so I'm going to be very very vague under this spoiler tag:

Spoiler

The TCG poisoning of the warrens via Pannion is a separate issue from the tainting of that very specific entity you are referring to, and only the latter is ongoing to the point in time you reference.

[Gnaw]

worry, on 06 October 2013 - 04:35 AM, said:

I don't know how to respond to that without spoiling, so I'm going to be very very vague under this spoiler tag:

Hmmm. Vague is why I left part of that out. I see I'm overdue for a re-read. 'Cause that's one poisoning more than I remember.

[worry]

You should follow the ABC method: Always Be Re-Reading (don't ask me why the C stand for Re-reading).

[Gnaw]

worry, on 06 October 2013 - 06:47 AM, said:

You should follow the ABC method: Always Be Re-Reading (don't ask me why the C stand for Re-reading).

ABC²: Always Be Consuming & Contemplating