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Questions about the Bridgeburners and Crossbow bolts and other stuff

#1 User is offline   The Watch 

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 10:05 AM

Okay, a nice enough Malazan novel, but I feel like I'm not getting the information I was hoping for, or I'm missing something obvious or important. Hope you guys can help me (spoilers if you haven't read the book):

1) Why did the Tyrant's followers try to drive the BB out of Krul's Bar? It obviously has something to do with the tomb underneath, but what's in there and why does it matter to the Tyrant?

2) Also, I was a little disappointed by the passive reaction of the BB: at the end of TtH (if I remeber correctly), Blend finds the master of the assassins guild and forces him to give up the identity of the one who put a contract on their heads (at the time I assumed it was Humble Measure but after reading OST it seems that Aman is behind it). In TtH, Blend is really pissed of, and I expected her to go after their new enemy. But it seems the BB just went back to running a bar. To me this seems out of character.

3) killing the Tyrant: let me see if I got it right: Kruppe brings the shards of Dragnipur to Barathol and Humble (missed that myself but found it in a thread here on the forum, thx) who use the shards to forge bolts, and he also supplies some really nasty substance from that with (= Derudan?). What substance does Kruppe get from the witch? And then he mysteriouy places those bolts in the possession of Leff and Scorch, who are apperenly so stupid you can count on them to shoot the Legate by accident ( kinda funny :p. The Tyrant is dying slowly, none of his servants wants to take the mask, so he becomes ineffectual. Ebbin (carrying that pearl thing and part of the Tyrant's spirit inside him) gets to live in the Azath house and Leff and Scorch dump the masked body of the Tyrant back in the well on the Dwelling Plain. Really? This doesn't sound like a final solution to me? But perhaps there was no way to banish or destroy the Tyrant once and for all?

What I did like about this novel very much was that we get some insight in different places and peoples we read about so much (the real deal about the Seguleh, a glimpse in the Moranth), but all in all, also a rather confusing book.
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#2 User is offline   Spoilsport Stonny 

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 01:33 PM

The Watch said:

Okay, a nice enough Malazan novel, but I feel like I'm not getting the information I was hoping for, or I'm missing something obvious or important. Hope you guys can help me (spoilers if you haven't read the book):

1) Why did the Tyrant's followers try to drive the BB out of Krul's Bar? It obviously has something to do with the tomb underneath, but what's in there and why does it matter to the Tyrant?



This had to do mostly with K'rul being a force of opposition to the Tyrant. The less powerful entities to oppose the Tyrant, the better for him. He is just in the beginning stages of reestablishing his empire in Darujhistan, and K'rul isn't extrememly powerful, so take him out now and all is well. The BBs and the pickled Seguleh act as defense for K'rul. Remove them and get to K'rul. But he probably didn't anticipate Tayschrenn's involvement.

The Watch said:

2) Also, I was a little disappointed by the passive reaction of the BB: at the end of TtH (if I remeber correctly), Blend finds the master of the assassins guild and forces him to give up the identity of the one who put a contract on their heads (at the time I assumed it was Humble Measure but after reading OST it seems that Aman is behind it). In TtH, Blend is really pissed of, and I expected her to go after their new enemy. But it seems the BB just went back to running a bar. To me this seems out of character.


They are getting old. It's one of the minor themes throughout, esp in TtH and OST. They've lost their fighting edge, and would prefer to retire in peace. Too many of their friends have died (Mallet and Bluepearl most recently, Picker was in a coma; Antsy is still a bit *ahem* antsy, and chooses to exercise his antsiness in a treasure hunt.), and sometimes it just ain't worth it, especially if it ain't worth it. It looks like, in the end, that Humble Measure also realized that these Malazans aren't too interested in a fight anymore, especially if its over defending the empire. He also probably regrets his role in bringing the Tyrant back, if that was ever even a concious effort on his part. Its been said that the Tyrant was choosing now to return because Rake is no longer around to oppose him. Perhaps Humble Measure was being manipulated somehow all along.

The Watch said:

3) killing the Tyrant: let me see if I got it right: Kruppe brings the shards of Dragnipur to Barathol and Humble (missed that myself but found it in a thread here on the forum, thx) who use the shards to forge bolts, and he also supplies some really nasty substance from that with (= Derudan?). What substance does Kruppe get from the witch? And then he mysteriouy places those bolts in the possession of Leff and Scorch, who are apperenly so stupid you can count on them to shoot the Legate by accident ( kinda funny :p. The Tyrant is dying slowly, none of his servants wants to take the mask, so he becomes ineffectual. Ebbin (carrying that pearl thing and part of the Tyrant's spirit inside him) gets to live in the Azath house and Leff and Scorch dump the masked body of the Tyrant back in the well on the Dwelling Plain. Really? This doesn't sound like a final solution to me? But perhaps there was no way to banish or destroy the Tyrant once and for all?


Blanking on what Kruppe got from Derudan. I thought he was providing her with narcotics and sexing her up so she remained out of the Tyrant's influence.

Re: Ebbin and the masked tyrant's body: I don't think there is another way. Scorch and Leff won't go back for the mask. And with Draconus back in the world, that remains a pretty stiff barrier to anyone else attempting to unearth it again and claim the role. Ebbin being Azath'd is effective at keeping his itchy shovel at bay, especially since its a relatively young and powerful Azath, it should hold him for a while, and maybe even heal him. It also allows for the future possibility of the Tyrant returning eventually and Kruppe having to defend his beloved city again. Few things are final, I guess.

The Watch said:

What I did like about this novel very much was that we get some insight in different places and peoples we read about so much (the real deal about the Seguleh, a glimpse in the Moranth), but all in all, also a rather confusing book.


I agree it was tough to puzzle what was going on sometimes. The end of the Tayschrenn/Leoman/Kiska story was not where I saw that going at all. The Tyrant seemed a little weak at points for being so built up. THe Spawns was a cool story, I thought. The Moranth were both frustrating and eye-opening. I always liked them and to seee more and an inside view at that was cool too. The Seguleh were handled perfectly. The reson they wear masks, the glimpse at their culture, Dassem's becoming the First (which was cool in that Rake kept the mask of the First on Moons Spawn, and he killed Rake, so now he gets the mask...Neat right?), Taya finally getting her comeuppance, SHARDS OF FUCKING DRAGNIPUR!

Yes, at times it was confusing, but I think overall, it was a great story and a really good entry in the series. Honestly, after Toll the Hounds, you really can't improve on that. But the story had to go on, and go on it did.
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#3 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 06:20 PM

View PostSpoilsport Stonny, on 17 June 2013 - 01:33 PM, said:

The Watch said:

Okay, a nice enough Malazan novel, but I feel like I'm not getting the information I was hoping for, or I'm missing something obvious or important. Hope you guys can help me (spoilers if you haven't read the book):

1) Why did the Tyrant's followers try to drive the BB out of Krul's Bar? It obviously has something to do with the tomb underneath, but what's in there and why does it matter to the Tyrant?



This had to do mostly with K'rul being a force of opposition to the Tyrant. The less powerful entities to oppose the Tyrant, the better for him. He is just in the beginning stages of reestablishing his empire in Darujhistan, and K'rul isn't extrememly powerful, so take him out now and all is well. The BBs and the pickled Seguleh act as defense for K'rul. Remove them and get to K'rul. But he probably didn't anticipate Tayschrenn's involvement.



Almost agreed... Tays passed thru the gate in Krul's basement and ascended. I assumed the Tyrant was after the gate for whatever power it offered, not K'rul her'himself.

Quote

The Watch said:

2) Also, I was a little disappointed by the passive reaction of the BB: at the end of TtH (if I remeber correctly), Blend finds the master of the assassins guild and forces him to give up the identity of the one who put a contract on their heads (at the time I assumed it was Humble Measure but after reading OST it seems that Aman is behind it). In TtH, Blend is really pissed of, and I expected her to go after their new enemy. But it seems the BB just went back to running a bar. To me this seems out of character.


They are getting old. It's one of the minor themes throughout, esp in TtH and OST. They've lost their fighting edge, and would prefer to retire in peace. Too many of their friends have died (Mallet and Bluepearl most recently, Picker was in a coma; Antsy is still a bit *ahem* antsy, and chooses to exercise his antsiness in a treasure hunt.), and sometimes it just ain't worth it, especially if it ain't worth it. It looks like, in the end, that Humble Measure also realized that these Malazans aren't too interested in a fight anymore, especially if its over defending the empire. He also probably regrets his role in bringing the Tyrant back, if that was ever even a concious effort on his part. Its been said that the Tyrant was choosing now to return because Rake is no longer around to oppose him. Perhaps Humble Measure was being manipulated somehow all along.


In TTH Picker and Fisher had also ensured that the Assassins' Guild, logical people to strike at the BBs, would never take that contract again.

Quote

The Watch said:

3) killing the Tyrant: let me see if I got it right: Kruppe brings the shards of Dragnipur to Barathol and Humble (missed that myself but found it in a thread here on the forum, thx) who use the shards to forge bolts, and he also supplies some really nasty substance from that with (= Derudan?). What substance does Kruppe get from the witch? And then he mysteriouy places those bolts in the possession of Leff and Scorch, who are apperenly so stupid you can count on them to shoot the Legate by accident ( kinda funny . The Tyrant is dying slowly, none of his servants wants to take the mask, so he becomes ineffectual. Ebbin (carrying that pearl thing and part of the Tyrant's spirit inside him) gets to live in the Azath house and Leff and Scorch dump the masked body of the Tyrant back in the well on the Dwelling Plain. Really? This doesn't sound like a final solution to me? But perhaps there was no way to banish or destroy the Tyrant once and for all?


Blanking on what Kruppe got from Derudan. I thought he was providing her with narcotics and sexing her up so she remained out of the Tyrant's influence.


I thought she gave him the process to make the bolts.
I also thought Kruppe had Mokra'd Scorch and Leff to ensure they would do exactly what they did. It wasn't an accident... Kruppe effectively engineered an assassination.

Quote

Quote

Re: Ebbin and the masked tyrant's body: I don't think there is another way. Scorch and Leff won't go back for the mask. And with Draconus back in the world, that remains a pretty stiff barrier to anyone else attempting to unearth it again and claim the role. Ebbin being Azath'd is effective at keeping his itchy shovel at bay, especially since its a relatively young and powerful Azath, it should hold him for a while, and maybe even heal him. It also allows for the future possibility of the Tyrant returning eventually and Kruppe having to defend his beloved city again. Few things are final, I guess.



As for the 'end', the tragedy of it was that the Tyrant remained a threat to the future, just as he had for millennia. That was the point.

Quote

The Watch said:

What I did like about this novel very much was that we get some insight in different places and peoples we read about so much (the real deal about the Seguleh, a glimpse in the Moranth), but all in all, also a rather confusing book.


I agree it was tough to puzzle what was going on sometimes. The end of the Tayschrenn/Leoman/Kiska story was not where I saw that going at all. The Tyrant seemed a little weak at points for being so built up. THe Spawns was a cool story, I thought. The Moranth were both frustrating and eye-opening. I always liked them and to seee more and an inside view at that was cool too. The Seguleh were handled perfectly. The reson they wear masks, the glimpse at their culture, Dassem's becoming the First (which was cool in that Rake kept the mask of the First on Moons Spawn, and he killed Rake, so now he gets the mask...Neat right?), Taya finally getting her comeuppance, SHARDS OF FUCKING DRAGNIPUR!

Yes, at times it was confusing, but I think overall, it was a great story and a really good entry in the series. Honestly, after Toll the Hounds, you really can't improve on that. But the story had to go on, and go on it did.



Agreed. And an epilogue of sorts to TtH, which meant after those events, whatever happened wouldn't be quite as world-shateringly epic, tho i thought ICE did a nice job of upping the stakes for the characters involved.

Another element to SE and ICE's Malazan works is that we almost never get the entire story. That's part of the beauty of the series.
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#4 User is offline   Spoilsport Stonny 

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 07:43 PM

THanks for clearing more of this up. I didn't want to answer it but I saw it sitting for a few days and thought I'd add my impressions.

That nasement gate theory makes perfect sense. I guess when he was powerful enough, he would have attempted something with it. And if his (the tyrant) magic is elder, taking out Krul in anyway wouldn't necessarily be a problem for him. I wonder what kind of damage that would inflict if the tyrant were to go through? Makes sense that the pickled seguleh were in the basement then.

I agree Kruppe enabled Scorch and Leff to do what they did, via his dancey dance, but just saying that does not a good writer make, so ICE styled it up a bit and showed, rather than told, and it worked well, but still confusing, or at least, not obvious.
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#5 User is offline   nacht 

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 11:34 PM

View PostThe Watch, on 15 June 2013 - 10:05 AM, said:


1) Why did the Tyrant's followers try to drive the BB out of Krul's Bar? It obviously has something to do with the tomb underneath, but what's in there and why does it matter to the Tyrant?



I always assumed they came to Kruls bar to eliminate the bridgeburners because they suspected them of trying to blow the foundations with moranth munitions.

Baruk and the other guy catches Spindle while he places the munition.

Then it blows.

Quote


He headed for a twisting walkway down the hill. Halfway down he flinched as a boom creaked over the hillside, echoing and rolling into the distance. It sounded eerily like broad sails catching a brisk wind. He turned in time to see a great cloud of dirt and dust billowing up over the tiled rooftops of the various buildings crowding the hilltop.



Then they come to eliminate the bridgeburners with sorcery and Krul stops that.

Quote

The tall hatchet-faced mage bowed again, thoughtfully. ‘Perhaps not us …’ he allowed. He peered down at Spindle. ‘Your gambit of Moranth munitions was inspired, but ineffective.


so they come back with the Seguleh.
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#6 User is offline   nacht 

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 11:39 PM

View PostAbyss, on 17 June 2013 - 06:20 PM, said:

I also thought Kruppe had Mokra'd Scorch and Leff to ensure they would do exactly what they did. It wasn't an accident... Kruppe effectively engineered an assassination.



This is a beautiful explanation. Before this, I was thinking this was a DEM and really bothered me but it is very much in line with both ICE and Kruppe's handiwork.
Kruppe was actually there in the palace. Now, why he was there makes sense..

Quote

The two sagged in relief. Leff cuffed Kruppe on the back. ‘You’re a true friend, Kruppe. Got no idea where we’d be without ya.’
Kruppe took a dainty sip of his wine. ‘You have no idea,’ he murmured.

This post has been edited by nacht: 17 June 2013 - 11:43 PM

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#7 User is offline   Dravon 

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 03:53 AM

One thing I think Important to note here is that "the misshapen figure" that they dropped down the well at the end was Aman, with all the screaming and such when they dropped him, hehe. The Tyrant they incinerated in the Iron Works or at least tossed his coffin into the molten metal. Along with I would assume the Bolts in bedded in him ( or the Dastardly Deadly Darts Of Darkness as I feel they should be henceforth be known as).
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Posted 21 June 2013 - 06:15 PM

View PostAbyss, on 17 June 2013 - 06:20 PM, said:

Quote

The Watch said:

3) killing the Tyrant: let me see if I got it right: Kruppe brings the shards of Dragnipur to Barathol and Humble (missed that myself but found it in a thread here on the forum, thx) who use the shards to forge bolts, and he also supplies some really nasty substance from that with (= Derudan?). What substance does Kruppe get from the witch? And then he mysteriouy places those bolts in the possession of Leff and Scorch, who are apperenly so stupid you can count on them to shoot the Legate by accident ( kinda funny . The Tyrant is dying slowly, none of his servants wants to take the mask, so he becomes ineffectual. Ebbin (carrying that pearl thing and part of the Tyrant's spirit inside him) gets to live in the Azath house and Leff and Scorch dump the masked body of the Tyrant back in the well on the Dwelling Plain. Really? This doesn't sound like a final solution to me? But perhaps there was no way to banish or destroy the Tyrant once and for all?


Blanking on what Kruppe got from Derudan. I thought he was providing her with narcotics and sexing her up so she remained out of the Tyrant's influence.


I thought she gave him the process to make the bolts.
I also thought Kruppe had Mokra'd Scorch and Leff to ensure they would do exactly what they did. It wasn't an accident... Kruppe effectively engineered an assassination.


Kruppe's narcotics definitely did keep her from being taken by the Tyrant, similar to how Vorcan found a way to resist it, too.

Kruppe's visits to her are to get and enchant the shafts of the crossbow bolts - he leaves with them after the last time he visits her. Of course they have to do the dirty to enchant them, because, if you'll recall from GotM, Derudan is a mage of Tennes - more specifically the Tennerock Tusk of Love.

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
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#9 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 08:00 PM

Countdown to someone making an 'enchant his shaft' joke in 5... 4... 3....
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#10 User is offline   nacht 

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 08:47 PM

View PostAbyss, on 21 June 2013 - 08:00 PM, said:

Countdown to someone making an 'enchant his shaft' joke in 5... 4... 3....


You mean his eel.

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'Now, where were we, my love?'
He wriggled his fingers above her and there from a fold of the shirts peeped the weave of a dirty linen sack.
Aha! And now to pluck this blushing blossom …



I guess we have to imagine that they were bolts.

This post has been edited by nacht: 21 June 2013 - 08:47 PM

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#11 User is offline   Sinisdar Toste 

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 11:27 PM

derudan the insane witch is described as carving sticks when kruppe comes to visit i think, it was always this weird thing that stuck out to me, like what the hell with the carving? and then kruppe would gulp and take the plunge and i'd get completely distracted. never putting the carving and the sexing together. completely forgot that derudan was a 'tusk of love' witch. great catch d'rek.
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#12 User is offline   Tiste Simeon 

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 01:17 AM

View Postnacht, on 21 June 2013 - 08:47 PM, said:

View PostAbyss, on 21 June 2013 - 08:00 PM, said:

Countdown to someone making an 'enchant his shaft' joke in 5... 4... 3....


You mean his eel.

Quote


'Now, where were we, my love?'
He wriggled his fingers above her and there from a fold of the shirts peeped the weave of a dirty linen sack.
Aha! And now to pluck this blushing blossom …



I guess we have to imagine that they were bolts.

He... broke the circle?? Ewwwwww...
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