[Dolorous Menhir]

It sickens me that people want to film Bakker. No way that will ever happen. Setting aside my personal dislike for the material; the content would not transfer to the screen without radical changes. And it shouldn't derail this thread.

[amphibian]

I wonder what the fan reactions would be like for memorable deaths in a hypothetical Malazan series. A couple of them could probably outdo this red wedding.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Apologies for being negative again, but that's a totally unrealistic idea. We may love Malazan, but it's not TV material. Proposal: Game of Thrones has been a massive success because (relatively trivial plot elements aside) it has been a "realistic" swords and politics affair. The viewing public relates to that. Those "trivial" plot elements being the dragons/white walkers/wargs/Melisandre, which have only been on the margins.

Very skeptical that something like Bakker or Erikson, which are so much closer to the fantasy stereotype, could generate the same mass appeal and viewer emotion on the small screen. Take Itkovian for example; could that work?

Illustration: imagine if GoT featured prominent Gandalf-like characters. Perhaps the Maesters tossed out a few magic missiles every episode and Robb had a magic sword. Would it be the same show? Would it be as popular?

[worry]

Dolorous Menhir, on 04 June 2013 - 05:25 AM, said:

Apologies for being negative again, but that's a totally unrealistic idea.

That's why he's using the power of imagination.

I don't want to post MBOTF spoilers in this thread, but I can think of a death in Reaper's Gale that got people throwing their books against walls and such, that would probably get a similar reaction to RW. Besides that one, so many people die that even after you eliminate the so-called "unfilmable" stuff you'd still have plenty of examples that fit what amph is suggesting.

[James Hutton]

worry, on 04 June 2013 - 05:34 AM, said:

Dolorous Menhir, on 04 June 2013 - 05:25 AM, said:

Apologies for being negative again, but that's a totally unrealistic idea.

I don't want to post MBOTF spoilers in this thread, but I can think of a death in Reaper's Gale that got people throwing their books against walls and such, that would probably get a similar reaction to RW.

This. That was the first thing I thought when reading peoples responses to the RW episode.

[polishgenius]

Dolorous Menhir, on 04 June 2013 - 04:15 AM, said:

It sickens me that people want to film Bakker. No way that will ever happen. Setting aside my personal dislike for the material; the content would not transfer to the screen without radical changes.

I wasn't seriously suggesting that they should adapt Bakker, you realise, much as I wish it was feasible. It was more a comment on the self-congratulatory smugness of certain aSoIaF lovers who clearly don't read much other fantasy and were patronising the genre.

It'd never happen, if for no other reason than American networks would never sponsor a show where almost all the characters are middle-eastern.

Mads Mikkelsen can't be Cniaur, he needs to hurry up and be Uther Doul in a film of The Scar before he's too old for the role.



I've got to admit, while I like it a lot more overall, the only moment in Malazan that knocked me for six anything like the RW or Ned's dead, baby, Ned's dead was the one in RG (though other parts got to me in a different sort of way). The thing about Malazan though is that I'd much rather see fragments of it adapted in detail (like the proposed Chain of Dogs adaptation that fell through, or a game about one aspect or another- say, The Claw) than see someone try to adapt it all and fall flat.


I don't think the idea that audiences wouldn't respond to a more old-school high magic feel is true though. I mean, it gets thrown around a lot, but come on. LotR made billions, Once Upon a Time and Supernatural which hardly pretend to be gritty non-fantasy are roaring successes, and even Legend of the bloody Seeker got a solid whack of views. If it was ever true that audiences got turned off by geeky magic things, it's not any more. The bigger problem is that high-magic things are either very expensive or look crap, and GoT is expensive enough as it is.

I do think it's only a matter of time before one of the cable networks tries to take aGoT on directly. The only reason it hasn't happened already the same way serial killers followed Dexter or Grimm and Once Upon a Time followed Supernatural is coz that shit's expensive, and they want something close a sure bet, which is obviously difficult to find, especially for long-form. I'm certain it's only a matter of time before Abercrombie sees the screen (assuming he wants it) but probably more likely as a film.







Aaaaaaanyway, while I didn't see any live reactions, my friends' internet reaction so far has been rather disappointing. Put out, but not hysterical. My friends are too sensible.

The Daily Mail are awful. They've taken a bunch of tweets clearly reacting emotionally to the show, and made out that they're criticising the gore.

[QuickTidal]

polishgenius, on 04 June 2013 - 11:27 AM, said:

I've got to admit, while I like it a lot more overall, the only moment in Malazan that knocked me for six anything like the RW or Ned's dead, baby, Ned's dead was the one in RG (though other parts got to me in a different sort of way). The thing about Malazan though is that I'd much rather see fragments of it adapted in detail (like the proposed Chain of Dogs adaptation that fell through, or a game about one aspect or another- say, The Claw) than see someone try to adapt it all and fall flat.

I think there are three or four moments in the Malazan series that I could see having the same audience affect (at least how they gut punched me):

spoilers for all the books, just in case...

Spoiler

1. Coltaine's death in the Chain of Dogs. 2. Itkovian's death in MOI. and 3. Beaks sacrifice/death in RG. and 4. And the 1, 2, 3 punch of Stormy, Gesler and Bent in TCG.

[D'rek]

Dolorous Menhir, on 04 June 2013 - 05:25 AM, said:

IADMAITTTIS

^^fixed

QuickTidal, on 04 June 2013 - 01:25 PM, said:

polishgenius, on 04 June 2013 - 11:27 AM, said:

I've got to admit, while I like it a lot more overall, the only moment in Malazan that knocked me for six anything like the RW or Ned's dead, baby, Ned's dead was the one in RG (though other parts got to me in a different sort of way). The thing about Malazan though is that I'd much rather see fragments of it adapted in detail (like the proposed Chain of Dogs adaptation that fell through, or a game about one aspect or another- say, The Claw) than see someone try to adapt it all and fall flat.

I think there are three or four moments in the Malazan series that I could see having the same audience affect (at least how they gut punched me):

spoilers for all the books, just in case...

Spoiler

1. Coltaine's death in the Chain of Dogs. 2. Itkovian's death in MOI. and 3. Beaks sacrifice/death in RG. and 4. And the 1, 2, 3 punch of Stormy, Gesler and Bent in TCG.

Spoiler

I don't think any of those is comparable to the RW. They might have the same or more emotional impact, but none of them are sudden, unexpected events. Coltaine and Beak's have a lot of lead-up to them, Itkovian's is not a surprising death, just a sad one. Stormy/Ges/Bent are in battle, so a death is not as surprising.

For comparable to the RW, IMO:

-Trull's death, as already said up-thread
-Felisin vs Tavore (this one is tricky, because part of the shock in the book comes from it being Felisin's PoV, knowing the goddess has left her and knowing she is surrendering. Hard to convey that in film)
-The Beddict brothers dying in MT (especially if well edited to have all 3 back-to-back after some strong brotherly development and theming throughout the series)
-Capustan falling, with the deaths of Brukhalian, Jelarkan and Karnadas, Stonny's rape+PTSD, etc (especially if the audience is somewhat lead to believe throughout the season that Capustan has a chance of repelling the invaders)

Biggest one for my money, though, would be Pormqual's army surrendering and being crucified at the end of DG. That is just *not* something the audience would expect, at all. And even once the viewer realizes what is happening, it goes on and gets worse for a while, much like the RW.



Also, Ganoes getting stabbed in Pale (cut to credits, have the BBs find him next episode) and Toc being thrown into Hairlock's rent would be great first-season shocks equivalent to Eddard's beheading. Both likeable characters, and Ganoes especially seems very "main character"-ish in GotM.

[Ulrik]

OK, my five cents about MBoF TV series "make your fan scream in horror"

Spoiler

1 - hobling of Hetan - really, this is probably the most gut wrenching, brutal, nondigestible scene of whole series

2 - Trull´s death - because...we all know why

3 - Coltaine´s Fall but from perspective of Aren soldiers doing nothing

4 - Toc´s second death and skinning his face

5 - Whiskeyjack dying because of broken leg

[polishgenius]

I want to chip in further, but as we're veering towards a massive derail I motion we take this discussion to another thread. Perhaps in the films and TV forum.

[Imperial Historian]

Done.

Personally I think (spoiler for malazan books)

Spoiler

The betrayal of coltaine (followed by the crucifixion of the malazan army), the death of whiskeyjack and the fall of iktovian, the triple deaths of the beddict brothers (resurrections aside), beak and a couple of other moments in the malazan series rival the red wedding in terms of sheer emotion, and would work equally well on TV, whilst some of the other heartbreaking moments such as the death of felisin wouldn't work quite as well through TV, there are plenty that would

[worry]

Let's not forget the most shocking double murder of all MBOTF:

Spoiler

The stomping of Joyful Union!

[polishgenius]

worry, on 04 June 2013 - 10:15 PM, said:

Let's not forget the most shocking double murder of all MBOTF:

Spoiler

The stomping of Joyful Union!

Yeah, that was harsh.




I think Malazan has many moments that rival or beat the RW for sheer emotion, but in terms of that stun effect, put-the-book-down-and-gaze-for-a-bit moment, (major spoilers, all Malazan)

Spoiler

it's only really Trull getting killed. That was a sideswipe. Coltaine and Itkovian, for example, were awesome and tragic, but built to - they took place in something of a heightened atmosphere. I think I made mention when someone mentioned the Redder Wedding in the old topic, Malazan in some ways functions like a classic tragedy and so you get the grief, but not the surprise. This isn't in any way worse- I like Malazan a lot more than aSoIaF - but if you showed the Chain of Dogs on screen I don't think you'd get the outraged audience reaction to Coltaine's death that the Red Wedding got.
For me, anyway.
There were a couple that I think were meant to be shocks but were telegraphed a bit. Whiskeyjack and Beak, most specifically- WJ was being built up for such a wonderful life that I wasn't much surprised when he bit the dust, and Beak was only really in the book for that end scene despite his buildup so while well-written, I was just waiting to see what he was there for and as a result wasn't too emotionally invested.

Mentions of other series, since we're here:

The whole end of the First Law would be up there, I reckon. I mean, can you imagine the hate for

Spoiler

Bayaz if they ever bring that to the screen? Particularly effective since like the RW and unlike some other examples it comes after a very patient buildup, three books in. It's a bit different, because iirc none of the characters we're rooting for actually die, but ouch the pain.

Phillip Pulman's His Dark Materials

Spoiler

This is the great missed opportunity when it comes to adaptation. The betrayal at the end of Northern Lights was one of the great moments in fantasy fiction, especially YA fiction, imo and excising it in The Golden Compass was an attempted crowdpleaser that took the teeth out of the whole film.

[amphibian]

For the effectiveness of the Red Wedding, there has to be a connection to the characters and there has to be a sort of violent element or oblivion to which the character is consigned to really drive at the emotions. For the most part, people really react to betrayals of truly good characters strongly (which makes sense) and we love to hate characters like Joffrey, the evil little guy from The Green Mile, Ralph Fiennes in Schindler's List and a few others.

Enormous Malazan spoilers:

Spoiler

It's why I think our favorite redeemer won't ever get that type of reaction. He was just a great person and kinda just fell over when "it" happened. The death of Trull, the death of Whiskeyjack, the death of Mappo, the hobbling of Hetan, Anomander's sacrifice and Yghatan would all be astounding moments to behold onscreen. It'll never happen, but this is where the imagination comes into play. All of these involve characters that the reader/viewer has connected with enormously.

As for comeuppance moments, seeing Olar Ethil get what she deserves was a big one for me. Karsa getting Rhulad too.

I agree that Abercrombie's First Law series makes the most sense for a series to adapt onscreen, although perhaps something could be worked out for the Takeshi Kovacs books. Abercrombie's storylines could be somewhat straightforward to adapt and the Kovacs books mostly follow the usual detective series pattern with tecmo-parkour combat/solution finishes.

[Kanese S's]

For Malazan, not sure if this qualifies, due to being in the prequel, but that one scene in Forge of Darkness.

[OberynM]

LOL!Red Wedding is like candy besides hmmm i dont know Coltaine's final stand?

[Kanese S's]

Coltaine's fall wasn't seemingly out of nowhere, though. Nor was it such a twisted defiling of what's ordinarily a nice event.

It was an entirely different sort of emotional reaction. I was sad and angry, but not nearly as horrified as I was while reading the Red Wedding or in FoD, that one scene.

[Kaamos]

polishgenius, on 04 June 2013 - 10:42 PM, said:

Spoiler

it's only really Trull getting killed. That was a sideswipe. Coltaine and Itkovian, for example, were awesome and tragic. . .

Spoiler

Unless you're one of those schmaltz-hearted sops who just got their innards throwing cartwheels over the reunion/relationship of Trull and Seren. I shed wet, weepy tears of lamentation. Besides, I really grew to love him as a character during MT.

amphibian, on 04 June 2013 - 11:45 PM, said:

Spoiler

It's why I think our favorite redeemer won't ever get that type of reaction. He was just a great person and kinda just fell over when "it" happened. The death of Trull, the death of Whiskeyjack, the death of Mappo, the hobbling of Hetan, Anomander's sacrifice and Yghatan would all be astounding moments to behold onscreen. It'll never happen, but this is where the imagination comes into play. All of these involve characters that the reader/viewer has connected with enormously.

Spoiler

Blaah my own fault I glanced at this; as something of a glassy-eyed Mappo fangirl, I would have liked to see him prevail. :/ Some of the others I already knew from an out-of-sync reading of OST. //slaps self

On the other hand, I love the Malazan books so much precisely due to the huge emotional impact; you learn to care for the characters and equally feel shocked at the unfortunate twists of fate. I have no interest for bland pap that can be shoved aside with a half-hearted meh and/or used as kiuas kindlings.

So might as well throw in my own, Stephen R Donaldson's books wallow in these. SPOILERS.

Spoiler

Grimmand Honninscrave's death in White Gold Wielder (and Covenant's own). The butchery of the Seareach Giants in The Illearth War. Saltheart Foamfollower's end. Et cetera et cetera... Weepity weep.