[Desra]

Shadow, on 06 June 2013 - 03:24 PM, said:

Tiamatha, on 06 June 2013 - 03:02 PM, said:

Does anyone with more mafia experience (whether through veteran status or actually modding) wish to comment about game balance in relation to 2 kills per night versus an alternating kill? Having never really modded, I am unsure upon the reasoning behind such game creation.

2 kills per night favours the scum, but alternating kills would favour town more. If one of the killers died early, it would take the other a very long time to win that way.

Games like this are quite volatile balance wise, because there are a lot of factors that can completely throw the game either way early on.

I don't think that having the alternate kills shifts anything balance wise. The extra time that town gets is off set by the town roles not knowing if they are actually guarding scum or not. They would have to guard the same person for 3 nights to be sure that they had scum. That gives scum a bigger chance to not be found out. Which off sets the extra time that town gets.

[Desra]

Shadow, on 06 June 2013 - 04:02 PM, said:

Atrahal, on 06 June 2013 - 03:43 PM, said:

Remove Vote



Vote Gay Lord



Test the reveal. Only, say the killers did abstain from killing for just this reason. I thought of it way back when, start of day one. If I was a killer i'd not kill until I had identified my partner. I also thought that if the guard revealed then the healer could just keep on healing him. Also if he revealed and someone counter revealed then we would have the symp or killer lynched as well as the guard. 1 scum for one roled town. I don't know, I believe you but you could be the symp sowing confusion, IF THIS IS THE CASE I SAY DO NOT COUNTER REVEAL GUARD.


What a mess.



It's too early to tell so I just pray Galayn Lord comes up scum.

Not sure I agree about the guard not revealing. It would give us a guaranteed scum at the least, though as you say, most likely at the cost of a guard. I can see where you're coming from, but if Tiam is the symp and the guard doesn't counter, then it puts the symp in a position to do a lot of damage to the town.

Personally, I'm inclined to believe Tiam. If he's the symp, it's not like he's got much to de-rail from at the moment. It could just be to misdirect town, but if he's not the guard, then while his reveal might draw the guard out, it also does give us scum, which is more than we had before.

Ultimately, if Tiam isn't the guard, countering or not is just going to come down to the guards choice, there are pros and cons to it.

Putting things like "IF THIS IS THE CASE I SAY DO NOT COUNTER REVEAL GUARD" on thread, jumps out to me as looking more like a message for scum than for the guard.

I agree about the message seeming to be more for scum then a real guard. Plus Atrahal has been suspected for a couple of days as a possible symp.

[Atrahal]

Desra, on 06 June 2013 - 04:06 PM, said:

Shadow, on 06 June 2013 - 04:02 PM, said:

Atrahal, on 06 June 2013 - 03:43 PM, said:

Remove Vote



Vote Gay Lord



Test the reveal. Only, say the killers did abstain from killing for just this reason. I thought of it way back when, start of day one. If I was a killer i'd not kill until I had identified my partner. I also thought that if the guard revealed then the healer could just keep on healing him. Also if he revealed and someone counter revealed then we would have the symp or killer lynched as well as the guard. 1 scum for one roled town. I don't know, I believe you but you could be the symp sowing confusion, IF THIS IS THE CASE I SAY DO NOT COUNTER REVEAL GUARD.


What a mess.



It's too early to tell so I just pray Galayn Lord comes up scum.

Not sure I agree about the guard not revealing. It would give us a guaranteed scum at the least, though as you say, most likely at the cost of a guard. I can see where you're coming from, but if Tiam is the symp and the guard doesn't counter, then it puts the symp in a position to do a lot of damage to the town.

Personally, I'm inclined to believe Tiam. If he's the symp, it's not like he's got much to de-rail from at the moment. It could just be to misdirect town, but if he's not the guard, then while his reveal might draw the guard out, it also does give us scum, which is more than we had before.

Ultimately, if Tiam isn't the guard, countering or not is just going to come down to the guards choice, there are pros and cons to it.

Putting things like "IF THIS IS THE CASE I SAY DO NOT COUNTER REVEAL GUARD" on thread, jumps out to me as looking more like a message for scum than for the guard.

I agree about the message seeming to be more for scum then a real guard. Plus Atrahal has been suspected for a couple of days as a possible symp.

A message in what way? If I was symp I would counter, especially if GL was innocent. I don't know if he is or isn't but if he does come up innocent then a symp would discredit Tiam. Anyway, it wasn't a hidden message for scum, it was a highlighted message for town guard. If this is Tiam then that's great. I wouldn't want out guard counter revealing, because then we lose a guard to a symp.

[Tholen]

Well I am an idiot...I totally didn't believe Skintick and thought he was just trying to save himself. Wish I would have had more time last night to analyze but I had to go to sleep as I work this morning.

I am definitely down testing the reveal. It has to be done and if Tiam is lying we get a scum..if he is telling the truth, we more than likely get a scum. Good odds there.

vote gaylord

[Korlat]

Alright, all caught up, though I don't have much time today. I left this morning after seeing the CF result, and came back all ready to vote Tholen - something I am still not totally against after that dumb hammer. But Galayn has to be lynched now. Tiam's case seems to tie in with my own suspicions of Hanas, so I feel pretty good about this.


I'll be around for about twenty more minutes, and I'll place my vote then, as I see some people clamouring to not rush this in case GL has something to say - though I don't see how anything GL has to say should dissuade this lynch.


I do have a question for Tiam - your cases yesterday put together Shadow and Atrahal. Do you think that was just the wrong track now or what?

[Shadow]

Desra, on 06 June 2013 - 04:04 PM, said:

Shadow, on 06 June 2013 - 03:24 PM, said:

Tiamatha, on 06 June 2013 - 03:02 PM, said:

Does anyone with more mafia experience (whether through veteran status or actually modding) wish to comment about game balance in relation to 2 kills per night versus an alternating kill? Having never really modded, I am unsure upon the reasoning behind such game creation.

2 kills per night favours the scum, but alternating kills would favour town more. If one of the killers died early, it would take the other a very long time to win that way.

Games like this are quite volatile balance wise, because there are a lot of factors that can completely throw the game either way early on.

I don't think that having the alternate kills shifts anything balance wise. The extra time that town gets is off set by the town roles not knowing if they are actually guarding scum or not. They would have to guard the same person for 3 nights to be sure that they had scum. That gives scum a bigger chance to not be found out. Which off sets the extra time that town gets.

Sure, but the extra time is pretty substantial.

I think we'd have five lynches from the offset, assuming they don't fail to kill. Then once one dies we get an extra day from that, plus however much longer we get because they can only kill at half speed.

An early scum death in a game with alternating kills is much worse for them than it normally is.

The fact that roles may be a bit less effective does redress the balance somewhat, and also introduces the possibility that town can end up getting accidentally misled by the guard a bit easier.

I wouldn't say the balance strongly suggests it being two kills instead of alternating kills, but it probably would've been my guess at the start.

In each case though, this sort of set up is unpredictable enough that either team could easily win.

[Cast]

I find GL a very odd choice for day 1 since he wasn't under suspicion. We must all be über super genius mafia players if we are able to identify the killers on the first day TWO GAMES IN A ROW!
And Tiam says we can lynch him if he's wrong like a martyr willing to fall on the sword! Only then it might be too late. I'm not at all surprised that Kara and Atrahal fell right in behind Tiam either!
I'll be happy to vote one of those 3.

[Shadow]

That's L-2 with something like 29 hours left.

[Desra]

Atrahal, on 06 June 2013 - 04:10 PM, said:

Desra, on 06 June 2013 - 04:06 PM, said:

Shadow, on 06 June 2013 - 04:02 PM, said:

Atrahal, on 06 June 2013 - 03:43 PM, said:

Remove Vote



Vote Gay Lord



Test the reveal. Only, say the killers did abstain from killing for just this reason. I thought of it way back when, start of day one. If I was a killer i'd not kill until I had identified my partner. I also thought that if the guard revealed then the healer could just keep on healing him. Also if he revealed and someone counter revealed then we would have the symp or killer lynched as well as the guard. 1 scum for one roled town. I don't know, I believe you but you could be the symp sowing confusion, IF THIS IS THE CASE I SAY DO NOT COUNTER REVEAL GUARD.


What a mess.



It's too early to tell so I just pray Galayn Lord comes up scum.

Not sure I agree about the guard not revealing. It would give us a guaranteed scum at the least, though as you say, most likely at the cost of a guard. I can see where you're coming from, but if Tiam is the symp and the guard doesn't counter, then it puts the symp in a position to do a lot of damage to the town.

Personally, I'm inclined to believe Tiam. If he's the symp, it's not like he's got much to de-rail from at the moment. It could just be to misdirect town, but if he's not the guard, then while his reveal might draw the guard out, it also does give us scum, which is more than we had before.

Ultimately, if Tiam isn't the guard, countering or not is just going to come down to the guards choice, there are pros and cons to it.

Putting things like "IF THIS IS THE CASE I SAY DO NOT COUNTER REVEAL GUARD" on thread, jumps out to me as looking more like a message for scum than for the guard.

I agree about the message seeming to be more for scum then a real guard. Plus Atrahal has been suspected for a couple of days as a possible symp.

A message in what way? If I was symp I would counter, especially if GL was innocent. I don't know if he is or isn't but if he does come up innocent then a symp would discredit Tiam. Anyway, it wasn't a hidden message for scum, it was a highlighted message for town guard. If this is Tiam then that's great. I wouldn't want out guard counter revealing, because then we lose a guard to a symp.

A message because the symp or scum knows that there is still another killer and don't want to lose another member after having missed two nk's in a row.

[Lizradusa]

It is Day 3. 29 hours and 19 minutes remaining
12 Players still alive: Atrahal, Cast, Desra, Galayn Lord, Gamelon, Hanas, Hood's Path, Karatallid, Korlat, Shadow, Tholen, Tiamatha

7 votes to lynch, 6 votes to go to night.

5 Votes for Galayn Lord ( Tiamatha, Atrahal, Desra, Karatallid, Tholen )
1 Vote for Atrahal ( Galayn Lord )
1 Vote for Tholen ( Shadow )
1 Vote for Night ( Hanas )

Players not voted: Cast, Gamelon, Hood's Path, Korlat

[Korlat]

Cast, on 06 June 2013 - 04:21 PM, said:

I find GL a very odd choice for day 1 since he wasn't under suspicion. We must all be über super genius mafia players if we are able to identify the killers on the first day TWO GAMES IN A ROW!
And Tiam says we can lynch him if he's wrong like a martyr willing to fall on the sword! Only then it might be too late. I'm not at all surprised that Kara and Atrahal fell right in behind Tiam either!
I'll be happy to vote one of those 3.

Yeah, this is actually a bigger worry than I thought about. It would be some odds to guard the right person off the bat again. Hmm.

[Tiamatha]

Korlat, on 06 June 2013 - 04:17 PM, said:

Alright, all caught up, though I don't have much time today. I left this morning after seeing the CF result, and came back all ready to vote Tholen - something I am still not totally against after that dumb hammer. But Galayn has to be lynched now. Tiam's case seems to tie in with my own suspicions of Hanas, so I feel pretty good about this.


I'll be around for about twenty more minutes, and I'll place my vote then, as I see some people clamouring to not rush this in case GL has something to say - though I don't see how anything GL has to say should dissuade this lynch.


I do have a question for Tiam - your cases yesterday put together Shadow and Atrahal. Do you think that was just the wrong track now or what?

That is a very fair question. So after there were no NKs on Day 1, I thought (going by the 2 kills per night paradigm) that I was onto something with GL. However, that also meant I didn't know who the other killer was, inspiring extra caution.

On day 2, I assumed that the symp would attempt 1 of 3 playstyles: helping his scum masters obliquely without contacting them, contacting them through signalling, or a combination of those playstyles. That meant that their could be at least one signalling attempt on day 1, and that is what I looked for.

I genuinely reread day 1 and found Shadow to be the most convincing scum master based on the evidence. I still don't entirely trust him and put him as second on my list following Hanas. The confusion of Gamelon thrown into the mix made me question my case, but I didn't want to look too thoughtful for fear that I would sniff down the correct path and be night killed as a result. I figured if the second night had 2 NKs, at least I was looking in other directions just in case.

Moreover, I didn't want to call attention to myself by attacking GL. I needed confirmation from the second night that he was a killer. Thus, when I placed a case on Shadow, I hoped that I would get a lynch of one of the two scum and then could reveal about GL the next day.

Does that answer your question?

[Tiamatha]

Cast, on 06 June 2013 - 04:21 PM, said:

I find GL a very odd choice for day 1 since he wasn't under suspicion. We must all be über super genius mafia players if we are able to identify the killers on the first day TWO GAMES IN A ROW!
And Tiam says we can lynch him if he's wrong like a martyr willing to fall on the sword! Only then it might be too late. I'm not at all surprised that Kara and Atrahal fell right in behind Tiam either!
I'll be happy to vote one of those 3.

Hardly a martyr. Lynching me if I am incorrect is completely logical. If I CF as town, you got the symp, if I CF as guard, town loses an ineffective guard. If I am kept around, the speculation will derail the thread from finding scum, so an expedient lynch would be the most logical choice.

Do you dispute that?

[Tiamatha]

Korlat, on 06 June 2013 - 04:31 PM, said:

Cast, on 06 June 2013 - 04:21 PM, said:

I find GL a very odd choice for day 1 since he wasn't under suspicion. We must all be über super genius mafia players if we are able to identify the killers on the first day TWO GAMES IN A ROW!
And Tiam says we can lynch him if he's wrong like a martyr willing to fall on the sword! Only then it might be too late. I'm not at all surprised that Kara and Atrahal fell right in behind Tiam either!
I'll be happy to vote one of those 3.

Yeah, this is actually a bigger worry than I thought about. It would be some odds to guard the right person off the bat again. Hmm.

It is true that it is lucky, but under the assumption that I'm being genuine, my reveal makes sense. It does not make sense under the guise of scum as far as I can tell (there were no trains, no building pressure on specific players, it is early day 3, etc). Correct me if I am wrong.

[Desra]

Shadow, on 06 June 2013 - 04:22 PM, said:

That's L-2 with something like 29 hours left.

Are you advocating holding off?

[Shadow]

Tiamatha, on 06 June 2013 - 04:34 PM, said:

Cast, on 06 June 2013 - 04:21 PM, said:

I find GL a very odd choice for day 1 since he wasn't under suspicion. We must all be über super genius mafia players if we are able to identify the killers on the first day TWO GAMES IN A ROW!
And Tiam says we can lynch him if he's wrong like a martyr willing to fall on the sword! Only then it might be too late. I'm not at all surprised that Kara and Atrahal fell right in behind Tiam either!
I'll be happy to vote one of those 3.

Hardly a martyr. Lynching me if I am incorrect is completely logical. If I CF as town, you got the symp, if I CF as guard, town loses an ineffective guard. If I am kept around, the speculation will derail the thread from finding scum, so an expedient lynch would be the most logical choice.

Do you dispute that?

In WCS D-day is tomorrow though, so if both you and GL are inno, lynching you both could mean we lose.

[Desra]

Korlat, on 06 June 2013 - 04:31 PM, said:

Cast, on 06 June 2013 - 04:21 PM, said:

I find GL a very odd choice for day 1 since he wasn't under suspicion. We must all be über super genius mafia players if we are able to identify the killers on the first day TWO GAMES IN A ROW!
And Tiam says we can lynch him if he's wrong like a martyr willing to fall on the sword! Only then it might be too late. I'm not at all surprised that Kara and Atrahal fell right in behind Tiam either!
I'll be happy to vote one of those 3.

Yeah, this is actually a bigger worry than I thought about. It would be some odds to guard the right person off the bat again. Hmm.

The odds are a bit high but it has happened before. In the last game scum was targeted by two town roles on the first night. Bad luck for them.

[Korlat]

Tiamatha, on 06 June 2013 - 04:31 PM, said:

Korlat, on 06 June 2013 - 04:17 PM, said:

Alright, all caught up, though I don't have much time today. I left this morning after seeing the CF result, and came back all ready to vote Tholen - something I am still not totally against after that dumb hammer. But Galayn has to be lynched now. Tiam's case seems to tie in with my own suspicions of Hanas, so I feel pretty good about this.


I'll be around for about twenty more minutes, and I'll place my vote then, as I see some people clamouring to not rush this in case GL has something to say - though I don't see how anything GL has to say should dissuade this lynch.


I do have a question for Tiam - your cases yesterday put together Shadow and Atrahal. Do you think that was just the wrong track now or what?

That is a very fair question. So after there were no NKs on Day 1, I thought (going by the 2 kills per night paradigm) that I was onto something with GL. However, that also meant I didn't know who the other killer was, inspiring extra caution.

On day 2, I assumed that the symp would attempt 1 of 3 playstyles: helping his scum masters obliquely without contacting them, contacting them through signalling, or a combination of those playstyles. That meant that their could be at least one signalling attempt on day 1, and that is what I looked for.

I genuinely reread day 1 and found Shadow to be the most convincing scum master based on the evidence. I still don't entirely trust him and put him as second on my list following Hanas. The confusion of Gamelon thrown into the mix made me question my case, but I didn't want to look too thoughtful for fear that I would sniff down the correct path and be night killed as a result. I figured if the second night had 2 NKs, at least I was looking in other directions just in case.

Moreover, I didn't want to call attention to myself by attacking GL. I needed confirmation from the second night that he was a killer. Thus, when I placed a case on Shadow, I hoped that I would get a lynch of one of the two scum and then could reveal about GL the next day.

Does that answer your question?

So you're saying you were trying to find who you felt might be the second killer? But now you feel Hanas is that second killer based upon him not being around over the lynch. The basis of your Hanas suspicion, now that I've thought more about it, is actually maybe even shakier than your Shadow case yesterday. However, I do personally think there's more which can be added as suspect about Hanas than just what you're saying about them not being around during the lynch of Skin.

Normally I would also say that looking for signalling is a non-starter, but in this case is different, as it is the symp's job to somehow identify his masters to each other, so I don't dispute the basis of your search. The case on Shadow was still pretty underwhelming, though

Also I think now it might have been worth waiting one more night and guarding Galayn again before revealing, if we're going with the alternating kills theory. But nothing can be done about that now.

Edit: In order to make absolutely certain, I mean.

This post has been edited by Korlat: 06 June 2013 - 04:43 PM

[Shadow]

Desra, on 06 June 2013 - 04:38 PM, said:

Shadow, on 06 June 2013 - 04:22 PM, said:

That's L-2 with something like 29 hours left.

Are you advocating holding off?

I'm advocating not lynching him before we get everyone's input on it.

Other than that, I'm all for testing by lynching GL.

Just there's no need to do it as a speed lynch right at the start of day 3.

[Desra]

Shadow, on 06 June 2013 - 04:39 PM, said:

Tiamatha, on 06 June 2013 - 04:34 PM, said:

Cast, on 06 June 2013 - 04:21 PM, said:

I find GL a very odd choice for day 1 since he wasn't under suspicion. We must all be über super genius mafia players if we are able to identify the killers on the first day TWO GAMES IN A ROW!
And Tiam says we can lynch him if he's wrong like a martyr willing to fall on the sword! Only then it might be too late. I'm not at all surprised that Kara and Atrahal fell right in behind Tiam either!
I'll be happy to vote one of those 3.

Hardly a martyr. Lynching me if I am incorrect is completely logical. If I CF as town, you got the symp, if I CF as guard, town loses an ineffective guard. If I am kept around, the speculation will derail the thread from finding scum, so an expedient lynch would be the most logical choice.

Do you dispute that?

In WCS D-day is tomorrow though, so if both you and GL are inno, lynching you both could mean we lose.

But if Tiam is the symp making a move then lynching him would buy another day.