[Hood's Path]

@ Hanas - what were you thinking about the exchange w/ Gam & Atrahal?

[Tiamatha]

Hanas, on 05 June 2013 - 07:35 PM, said:

Tiamatha, on 05 June 2013 - 07:14 PM, said:

Shadow, on 05 June 2013 - 01:08 AM, said:

Hanas, on 04 June 2013 - 11:41 PM, said:

Shadow, on 04 June 2013 - 10:45 PM, said:

Hanas, on 04 June 2013 - 10:23 PM, said:

13 players. 2 killers. 1 guard. 1 healer.
No NKs
Very good guessing. 1 or both killers abstaining. Or mod shenanigans.
Day 2 looks to be fun. Where's the popcorn?

Yeah, really unsure what to make of it.

It's possible they kill on alternate nights for example. It has been the case before anyway, not sure how likely it is.

Co-ordinated withhold? Or just both independently deciding to, it's a feasible strategy.

Really unsure.

Would you care to speculate on how the coordination took place? Just when I was thinking you might not be scum.

Via signal presumably. Would be worth checking back to see if there is anything that didn't look suspect at the time that could suggest something like that. Dunno, just throwing possibilities out there really and it's one of them. Dunno what's scummy about it tbh?

I'm hesitant to jump on the possibility of roled players being successful, because it's a risky thing to put weight on for town, and there are other possibilities.

Yeah, agree with Hanas here. Shadow looks like he is coordinating, again...

I was pointing out that his "coordinated withhold" was a load of bollocks. And that made me re-think his place in mental who is what file.

Tia, as long as you're looking at Atrahal go back and look at the Atrahal/Gamelon exchange. I'm probably seeing things, but...
Posts 130-136

Yeah, I saw that Sound of Music exchange, but in someways that doesn't change my direction with Shadow. I think Atrahal is the symp (and he definitely seems to be acting sympish towards Gamelon too), which could mean Gamelon is our second killer. The spacing between Shadow and Gamelon is great enough, and a lot of people have discounted Atrahal's signalling behavior (given how difficult signalling is to detect among the rest of the typical BS of mafia)

I am confused by Atrahal's last line (in response to Gamelon's "Nope."): "Ah, that is what Maria is. Fraulein Maria. I admit, I did not know until after I watched this film." Why that first sentence with the "Ah." It would make more sense if he was expressing understanding after wiki-ing it, but he didn't.

Of course, Fraulein was brought up by you Hanas.

[Galayn Lord]

Catching up. Work was a real bitch the last coupla days. It'll take me about an hour to get caught up and comment.

[Shadow]

The Atrahal thing is a stretch as you say, particularly that I am somehow communicating to him by calling Kara on his uselessly pointing out that we should be looking for symps.

I feel you are somewhat misrepresenting my vote on Cast. He was around and had just chipped in with a one-liner, so I was trying to put pressure on for more content. I don't really see what you are calling a 180.

Shadow, on 04 June 2013 - 05:15 PM, said:

For the record, I'm happy to vote off any of the coasters, hence my vote on Cast. I'd also be happy to vote Desra for pointlessly pointing out we should be looking for sympage, Kara for pointlessly pointing out D-Day and generally trying to seem more helpful than he has been, and possibly HP for initiating a whole pointless discussion via completely stupid questions.

You seem to think I have more against HP at this stage than I really did. There were a few things I didn't like, I pushed on them by bringing them up as odd, that's hardly a 180 to then not vote him. I'd already voted Desra and there hadn't been support for that. Kara had a couple of posts I didn't like. Mainly the maths one. I'd made that pretty clear on thread, and it wasn't that late in the day. Moreover, Kara had already been rather involved in the game. As well as that, when I looked over the HP/Kara posts (post 170) I realised HP had initiated a lot of the stuff that made me feel Kara was being overly helpful, which made me a bit less keen on him, and getting too focused on one person, who is actually contributing, and letting people get away with the sort of thing Cast was doing, is bad.

[Desra]

At this point I am leaning toward a Gamelon or skintick lynch.

[Tiamatha]

Shadow, on 05 June 2013 - 07:50 PM, said:

The Atrahal thing is a stretch as you say, particularly that I am somehow communicating to him by calling Kara on his uselessly pointing out that we should be looking for symps.

I feel you are somewhat misrepresenting my vote on Cast. He was around and had just chipped in with a one-liner, so I was trying to put pressure on for more content. I don't really see what you are calling a 180.

Shadow, on 04 June 2013 - 05:15 PM, said:

For the record, I'm happy to vote off any of the coasters, hence my vote on Cast. I'd also be happy to vote Desra for pointlessly pointing out we should be looking for sympage, Kara for pointlessly pointing out D-Day and generally trying to seem more helpful than he has been, and possibly HP for initiating a whole pointless discussion via completely stupid questions.

You seem to think I have more against HP at this stage than I really did. There were a few things I didn't like, I pushed on them by bringing them up as odd, that's hardly a 180 to then not vote him. I'd already voted Desra and there hadn't been support for that. Kara had a couple of posts I didn't like. Mainly the maths one. I'd made that pretty clear on thread, and it wasn't that late in the day. Moreover, Kara had already been rather involved in the game. As well as that, when I looked over the HP/Kara posts (post 170) I realised HP had initiated a lot of the stuff that made me feel Kara was being overly helpful, which made me a bit less keen on him, and getting too focused on one person, who is actually contributing, and letting people get away with the sort of thing Cast was doing, is bad.

I mean, to some extent what you say makes sense, except....

You voted for Cast toward the end of the day (6 hours remaining) after expending much energy on Kara/HP and removing your vote from Desra to do so. And for a townie to bring up a new lynch target that late in the day is ludicrous. You give the obligatory, "I'll switch to this player, or this player, or this player," to seem helpful and supportive, but frankly I find the overall play more disruptive and distracting than anything.

And distracting from what, you might counter? Why does there have to be something to distract from? If there isn't a lynch, meh, more WIFOM for tomorrow. If there is a lynch, meh, another townie down. Doesn't matter much to scum.

EDIT: added how close to the end of the day

This post has been edited by Tiamatha: 05 June 2013 - 08:03 PM

[Shadow]

A more structured response then:

Tiamatha, on 05 June 2013 - 07:39 PM, said:

Ok, done with my reread. So as you can tell, I'm starting to lean Shadow. Here are my reasons summed up:

1 ) There was a potential signalling exchange between Atrahal and Shadow at the very beginning of the game.

2 ) Throughout the game, Shadow has made sweeping statements about the uselessness of people discussing game mechanics, claiming that is a methodology used by scum to communicate. And yet, Shadow does this frequently, even using words like "coordinate," which makes me suspicious that he is trying to accomplish just that.

3 ) Atrahal has for the most part discounted cases on Shadow (particularly during day 1), and on day two gently prods Shadow (distancing?), even dropping the first vote on him. However, first votes are not lethal and often act as a good way to claim, "hey, I'm not linked to that player! I even built a case and voted on him! See see see!"

4 ) Shadow, for all his forcefulness and bluster, doesn't stick with his own cases. He pushes Kara/HP and yet at the same time votes Cast a few posts later. Scum do not care where their votes fall, as long as it isn't on other scum. And even though there is a higher chance of scum hitting one another this game, I'd bet that Cast is low on Shadow's list as potential fellow killer.

These are the big reasons I see Shadow as a potential killer. There are of course other softer reasons (a near train on Shadow failing on day 1, Shadow's willingness to encourage pissing matches), but I feel that the 4 points above are the most solid.

I really wanted to start poking lowposters and rooting out hiding scum within their ranks, but I have convinced myself in my reread that Shadow needs to be lynched to make sure he isn't the other type of scum player, namely a talker.

Remove Vote

Vote Shadow.

1. Nothing I can do about someone else signalling at me. I didn't like Atrahal's post much at the time. Someone earlier brought it up as potential fake signalling due to how over the top it looks, and I wouldn't be inclined to disagree. The only defence I can really point out is whether people think a symp would really be so unsubtle in a game where symping is likely to be focused on more than normal.

2. Timing is the important part. The maths post for example, I felt was completely irrelevant at the time. I don't like people doing it, because it seems like they're trying to look helpful without providing content. You'll also note that it is pretty impossible for me to call people out on it without myself ending up mentioning it, for example me explaining why I find this behaviour scummy you then interpret as me sending signals using the same technique.

3. Seems like a bit of a stretch to discount evidence that conflicts with your narrative, in regards to Atrahal voting me. It's also a very unnecessary one considering that it didn't actually happen.

Are you perhaps meaning my vote on Atrahal?

4. Addressed already. I voted Desra, and followed it up. After analysis I felt less sure about Kara/HP, and thought I would be back before timeout (I was, but I thought I'd have a bit more time), and wanted to try and put pressure on Cast, because he wasn't posting. Considering how hard it would be to have a read on someone like that at this stage in the game, saying it's unlikely I thought he would be a killer is just silly.

In regards to your softer points, you are using language to put a negative twist on things regardless of the events themselves. Putting pressure on people to try and get them to get involved = encouraging pissing matches now? You also do very little analysis on what makes the train failing even remotely scummy, since it's not an indication one way or another on its own, particularly on day one.

[Shadow]

Tiamatha, on 05 June 2013 - 08:02 PM, said:

And for a townie to bring up a new lynch target that late in the day is ludicrous.

I mean, to some extent what you say makes sense, except...

Shadow, on 04 June 2013 - 04:08 PM, said:

Remove vote

Vote Coast Cast

Tiamatha, on 04 June 2013 - 05:12 PM, said:

Vote Skintick

It's totally inconsistent

[Shadow]

Tiamatha, on 05 June 2013 - 08:02 PM, said:

And distracting from what, you might counter? Why does there have to be something to distract from? If there isn't a lynch, meh, more WIFOM for tomorrow. If there is a lynch, meh, another townie down. Doesn't matter much to scum.

This likewise doesn't really make sense.

If it makes no difference to scum, why not just leave my vote on Desra?

[Tiamatha]

2 ) So you disagree that stating the obvious, especially in regards to OP mechanics, can be used a means of communication, even when responding to such posts with long explanations resembling said mechanics speculation? Interesting:

Quote

It's not helpful for town, it just tries to pretend it is. It could be useful for scum though.

3 ) No conflict. As I said the votes were primary votes, practically harmless statistically speaking (as opposed to the middle votes of a lynch train). Now if Atrahal pushed a lynch train over the halfway point on you, that would be a separate matter entirely.

The people you were putting pressure on during your pissing matches were already involved. You were playing with the talkers who already were above and beyond in their post counts. Getting players involved would have meant dedicating yourself to pushing the lowposters and low-content-ers. Pissing matches =/= encouraging play.

Trains failing is often scummy. This is due to the fact that the remaining members of the scum team don't push a few votes into a lynch train and instead either wait it out or redirect the focus. Also, considering that the standing case was on you and SR makes me wonder why SR took the fall instead of you when initially SR had less votes than you.

[Tiamatha]

Shadow, on 05 June 2013 - 08:20 PM, said:

Tiamatha, on 05 June 2013 - 08:02 PM, said:

And distracting from what, you might counter? Why does there have to be something to distract from? If there isn't a lynch, meh, more WIFOM for tomorrow. If there is a lynch, meh, another townie down. Doesn't matter much to scum.

This likewise doesn't really make sense.

If it makes no difference to scum, why not just leave my vote on Desra?

Limits to the amount of speculation flying about. Plus, no one was biting on the Desra case, so you needed another tack.

[Hanas]

Hood said:

1370461549[/url]' post='1060491']
@ Hanas - what were you thinking about the exchange w/ Gam & Atrahal?

This.

Atrahal said:

1370335672[/url]' post='1059980']

Gamelon said:

1370335384[/url]' post='1059979']

Atrahal said:

1370334941[/url]' post='1059978']

Gamelon said:

1370334680[/url]' post='1059977']

Atrahal said:

1370334411[/url]' post='1059976']
Just Tholen and Venesara yet to post. I was about to mention you Gamelon. What do you think of the day so far?

I think Desra should learn some new threat, Isn't "when I become a mod, ..." some kind of Meta?
I also think that Shadow is a little obnoxious.
Also learned a new word: "fraulein"

Have you ever watched "The sound of music"?

Nope.

Ah, that is what Maria is. Fraulein Maria. I admit, I did not know until after I watched this film.

And I don't really know why it bothers me. But I get a signaling vibe.

And yes, I am the person who used "fräulein". Lizadrus lives in Germany.

Hanas said:

1370297256[/url]' post='1059882']

Path-Shaper said:

1370281924[/url]' post='1059797']The above argument is borderline regarding meta. Another argument like that will get the person coming up with it mod-killed. If you are unsure, if you can say something, ask me.

Fräulein Lizard, is it permissible to say they are both too fucking stupid to pass a kidney stone and can we please lynch them both today?

[Shadow]

It's also kind of funny that yesterday after reading the thread you went for Skintick, when you could've put vote 4 onto me. And yet now you're finding me scummy on stuff from day one. Talking of turnarounds...I mean, it's great under the guise of a re-read and all, but did you totally miss the posts you're now calling signalling yesterday?

And then there's this:

Tiamatha, on 04 June 2013 - 05:12 PM, said:

I think discussing the OP is an indeterminate method of differentiating scum or town. D-Day discussions and arguments over scum/town role dynamics are par for the course. I will not be throwing my attention on that case.

[Lizradusa]

It is Day 2. 13 hours and 47 minutes remaining
13 Players still alive: Atrahal, Cast, Desra, Galayn Lord, Gamelon, Hanas, Hood's Path, Karatallid, Korlat, Shadow, Skintick, Tholen, Tiamatha

7 votes to lynch, 7 votes to go to night.

1 Vote for Skintick ( Atrahal )
1 Vote for Shadow ( Tiamatha )
1 Vote for Atrahal ( Shadow )

Players not voted: Cast, Desra, Galayn Lord, Gamelon, Hanas, Hood's Path, Karatallid, Korlat, Skintick, Tholen

[Gamelon]

Hanas, on 05 June 2013 - 03:32 PM, said:

Gamelon, on 05 June 2013 - 09:32 AM, said:

I'm here and thanks to the small amount of posts on thread caught up.
Will be on and off for some time.*








*I cannot care less about what happens on thread, but unfortunately I don't like to be mod-killed and ruin the game so I will post and hope you lynch me or I will get nked.

How would you being modkilled ruin the game?

Reading up, in answer to this I must say that I really get annoyed when people get mod-killed and that ruins the towns chances to analyze lynch trains. You can get some info even from lynching low-posters.
Although, I would appreciate being lynched.

[Shadow]

Tiamatha, on 05 June 2013 - 08:28 PM, said:

Shadow, on 05 June 2013 - 08:20 PM, said:

Tiamatha, on 05 June 2013 - 08:02 PM, said:

And distracting from what, you might counter? Why does there have to be something to distract from? If there isn't a lynch, meh, more WIFOM for tomorrow. If there is a lynch, meh, another townie down. Doesn't matter much to scum.

This likewise doesn't really make sense.

If it makes no difference to scum, why not just leave my vote on Desra?

Limits to the amount of speculation flying about. Plus, no one was biting on the Desra case, so you needed another tack.

Please clarify the first sentence, I'm unsure what you mean. Do you mean I just wanted there to be more speculation on thread? How awful!

Why would it matter to scum if people were biting the case?

[Shadow]

Tiamatha, on 05 June 2013 - 08:27 PM, said:

2 ) So you disagree that stating the obvious, especially in regards to OP mechanics, can be used a means of communication, even when responding to such posts with long explanations resembling said mechanics speculation? Interesting:

Quote

It's not helpful for town, it just tries to pretend it is. It could be useful for scum though.

3 ) No conflict. As I said the votes were primary votes, practically harmless statistically speaking (as opposed to the middle votes of a lynch train). Now if Atrahal pushed a lynch train over the halfway point on you, that would be a separate matter entirely.

The people you were putting pressure on during your pissing matches were already involved. You were playing with the talkers who already were above and beyond in their post counts. Getting players involved would have meant dedicating yourself to pushing the lowposters and low-content-ers. Pissing matches =/= encouraging play.

Trains failing is often scummy. This is due to the fact that the remaining members of the scum team don't push a few votes into a lynch train and instead either wait it out or redirect the focus. Also, considering that the standing case was on you and SR makes me wonder why SR took the fall instead of you when initially SR had less votes than you.

2. No, I agree that stating the obvious can be scummy, and could be used as a form of communication (hence my vote on Desra), so you can leave out the strawmen. But it is impossible for me to call out other people doing it without leaving myself open to similar accusations.

3. Atrahal didn't vote me.

It was still early when I started putting pressure on so to say they were already very involved is just silly, as is to say that I should've gone for a low poster at that point - there were still a ton of people who hadn't even checked in.

[Tiamatha]

Shadow, on 05 June 2013 - 08:30 PM, said:

It's also kind of funny that yesterday after reading the thread you went for Skintick, when you could've put vote 4 onto me. And yet now you're finding me scummy on stuff from day one. Talking of turnarounds...I mean, it's great under the guise of a re-read and all, but did you totally miss the posts you're now calling signalling yesterday?

And then there's this:

Tiamatha, on 04 June 2013 - 05:12 PM, said:

I think discussing the OP is an indeterminate method of differentiating scum or town. D-Day discussions and arguments over scum/town role dynamics are par for the course. I will not be throwing my attention on that case.

Well, considering I was voting skintick before all the other posts of yours I have quoted, it makes sense that I would vote for you after a reread and after having more information on you. As for missing the posts of signalling yesterday, no I did not miss those. But without the supporting evidence that has built up since day one, I could not be convinced that atrahal and yourself were linked. That's why I built the case today and not yesterday. Yesterday, it was a weaken, Day 1 case. Today, with the added information from newer posts, I am feeling more confident that I did witness signalling (hence the timing of my reread followed by a case on you).

I still agree with what you quoted, however out of context it is. In the first day, cases built on people discussing OP mechanics seems premature and silly. Without more information, such cases are just as weak as signalling cases. Which is why the gestalt of day 2 cases often hold more water. I do not dispute my statement, but I do believe that as part of a gestalt, such information can be useful in supporting a case. You seem to indicate that I consider any tone or information within such discussions useless, which is patently different from what I said.

[Desra]

Gamelon, on 05 June 2013 - 08:33 PM, said:

Hanas, on 05 June 2013 - 03:32 PM, said:

Gamelon, on 05 June 2013 - 09:32 AM, said:

I'm here and thanks to the small amount of posts on thread caught up.
Will be on and off for some time.*

*I cannot care less about what happens on thread, but unfortunately I don't like to be mod-killed and ruin the game so I will post and hope you lynch me or I will get nked.

How would you being modkilled ruin the game?

Reading up, in answer to this I must say that I really get annoyed when people get mod-killed and that ruins the towns chances to analyze lynch trains. You can get some info even from lynching low-posters.
Although, I would appreciate being lynched.

I understand your predicament I am often under the gun at work and have very little time to post coherent thoughts on thread. That being said the amount of info that we can get from your lynch is pretty small. Your lynch would mainly to eliminate you so that scum didn't keep you alive for the EOD.

[Hood's Path]

Tiamatha, on 05 June 2013 - 08:27 PM, said:

2 ) So you disagree that stating the obvious, especially in regards to OP mechanics, can be used a means of communication, even when responding to such posts with long explanations resembling said mechanics speculation? Interesting:

Quote

It's not helpful for town, it just tries to pretend it is. It could be useful for scum though.

3 ) No conflict. As I said the votes were primary votes, practically harmless statistically speaking (as opposed to the middle votes of a lynch train). Now if Atrahal pushed a lynch train over the halfway point on you, that would be a separate matter entirely.

The people you were putting pressure on during your pissing matches were already involved. You were playing with the talkers who already were above and beyond in their post counts. Getting players involved would have meant dedicating yourself to pushing the lowposters and low-content-ers. Pissing matches =/= encouraging play.

Trains failing is often scummy. This is due to the fact that the remaining members of the scum team don't push a few votes into a lynch train and instead either wait it out or redirect the focus. Also, considering that the standing case was on you and SR makes me wonder why SR took the fall instead of you when initially SR had less votes than you.

any chance the train was redirected?