[Karatallid]

Korlat, on 13 June 2013 - 12:43 AM, said:

Karatallid has reasoning and even cases behind two of their votes (well, case singular really, as essentially both votes are about seeing Shadow as a killer), one test the reveal, and a vote on Skintick which just seems impatient to lynch (or would you say I'm being unkind?). Kara does remove from Shadow when Hanas puts them on L-1, but I don't really understand the reasoning. Kara, from what they're saying, appears convinced that Shadow will be a killer, and further makes no attempt to look elsewhere. So what does it matter to Kara at what point Shadow goes to L-1, if you're just looking for their lynch anyway? Kara is 3rd, 5th, 3rd, and 1st, so normally at the earlier end of a train, which I think would more be seen as a point in their favour. That Shadow vote removal still strikes me as odd, though.

Even though I may have seemed certain about my vote/case, that doesn't mean that I was 100% certain. I did not want to make it super easy for Shadow to get voted out. The fact that he was at L-2 and it still took so much work to get him lynched is another point in the 'maybe the symp is already dead' column too. We KNOW there is a killer left out there, we aren't CERTAIN if the symp is still alive, so I'm doing my best not to leave it open for scum to win, and that includes not putting someone at L-1 about halfway through a day.

As for the rest, as I said above, if I had to decide which dead person was the most likely symp, I can't help but go back to Shadow. He and Atrahal spent the entire game doing whatever they could to intimidate people for expressing their opinions, bullying people on thread, and muddying up the thread with contradictions and deliberate misunderstandings. I'm still convinced that Atrahal is the most likely scum, but, as I said before, am still iffy about Hanas, so would certainly be willing to go that way.

I dunno bout Cast, I still don't really get why she seems so scummy to everyone. She has never really pinged my scumdar. It feels like everyone has it out for her, cause in early game a few people said she was being a little scummy. Even your case leaves me or Cast as scum only by process of elimination of the least likely to be scum. *shrugs*

[Korlat]

Karatallid, on 13 June 2013 - 01:25 AM, said:

I dunno bout Cast, I still don't really get why she seems so scummy to everyone. She has never really pinged my scumdar. It feels like everyone has it out for her, cause in early game a few people said she was being a little scummy. Even your case leaves me or Cast as scum only by process of elimination of the least likely to be scum. *shrugs*

This is a fair point about guilt through elimination, rather than on their own deeds. Hmm. Though there are still some possible things there too, such as the reason for the vote on HP and the reaction over Tiam's reveal (but that wouldn't apply, or would be much more of a weak base, if I'm saying that they're a killer).

[Hanas]

Korlat said:

1371085285[/url]' post='1062558']
So basically, the scummiest looking person from this is the one who is by far the least likely to be the killer! Hanas, if you truly turn out to be not scum in any shape or form, then you need to think about the way you've been playing this game. Yeah, yeah, I know that sounds preachy and patronising, but I don't think anyone here will disagree with me on that assessment. And if you are scum, then I guess you can disregard those sentences at least


That would leave Kara or Cast as the killer then.

I am fascinated sir. Really. I am humbled even. Please sir, I beg of you, complete my mafia education.
I just have one itty bitty question.

[Hanas]

It's not very important. I'm almost ashamed to bring it up.

[Korlat]

Karatallid, on 13 June 2013 - 01:25 AM, said:

Even though I may have seemed certain about my vote/case, that doesn't mean that I was 100% certain. I did not want to make it super easy for Shadow to get voted out. The fact that he was at L-2 and it still took so much work to get him lynched is another point in the 'maybe the symp is already dead' column too. We KNOW there is a killer left out there, we aren't CERTAIN if the symp is still alive, so I'm doing my best not to leave it open for scum to win, and that includes not putting someone at L-1 about halfway through a day.

You say you're doing your best not to leave it open for scum to win, but that seemed to be giving others' time to go around and look at things, whilst yourself standing around saying 'convince me' (and then not being convinced apparently). Your Shadow case received numerous re-interpretations as others fell by the wayside. That doesn't really constitute an open-minded approach to the game. Hanas says that your stubborness in that regard is a virtue. I'm not sure that I can see it the same way, but then I'm also not sure if I'm being blinkered because, for me, the possibility of Shadow being scum eroded as the game went on.

[Karatallid]

This whole active players mustn't be scum thing is really shooting us in the foot. If we went by that philosophy, the only potential scum are Hanas and Cast. You, me and Atrahal have all been vocal players, and have all stood by our cases. I'm not trying to blinkered, I've always given alternatives to my main targets, but no one seems to ever been interested in the alternatives, so I push my case. I could be wrong, heck I very well may be, but there has to be a point where we look at things that are not so scummy and say, hey, maybe this scum player is actually doing a good job of it!

[Hanas]

I don't suppose you could explain just how it is, since you're not a mind reader, just how it is that you could possibly know

Spoiler

that GL's was the only "successful" lynch?

Korlat said:

1371084236[/url]' post='1062555']
Galayn Lord lynch: We've got Atrahal (2nd, first after Tiam's reveal), Hanas (5th), and Karatallid (3rd) all on the only successful lynch. Myself and Cast did not vote.

All three vote in order to test the reveal. Atrahal makes some suspicious or wary noises about Tiam's reveal, Kara expresses excitement, and I had to giggle at Hanas' comment. Good advice!
As this was the only successful lynch thus far, it's worth seeing why Cast and myself weren't on the lynch train.

[Hanas]

I'm waiting. Bated breath.

[Hanas]

Vote Korlat

[Korlat]

Karatallid, on 13 June 2013 - 01:43 AM, said:

This whole active players mustn't be scum thing is really shooting us in the foot. If we went by that philosophy, the only potential scum are Hanas and Cast. You, me and Atrahal have all been vocal players, and have all stood by our cases. I'm not trying to blinkered, I've always given alternatives to my main targets, but no one seems to ever been interested in the alternatives, so I push my case. I could be wrong, heck I very well may be, but there has to be a point where we look at things that are not so scummy and say, hey, maybe this scum player is actually doing a good job of it!

It's not so much active players does not equal scum, though. At least, I'm not intending to phrase it in those terms. But (generalisation alert) everyone behaves differently when they're a killer. The difference might be less pronounced in some than others, but it's there. Most often, or rather most apparently, it's translated as more conservative posting. I can't say that I've seen that in the likes of Atrahal, who has literally been all over the shop. I've only seen a killer behave like that once in recent memory (though I suppose then that still means it does happen).

I see what you're saying though. More attention should be paid to the actual content of posts. I need a re-read of Atrahal, it's the one player I haven't done recently too. Your sudden rationality is unnerving.

[Korlat]

Gosh, I guess you've caught me Hanas.

You know what my 'explanation' (as if one is required) is, so I won't bother saying it, seeing as you're waiting for me to say it so that you can counter with the inevitable. I'm done with you, frankly.

[Cast]

Korlat, on 13 June 2013 - 12:43 AM, said:

Cast has an 'I'm not connected!' vote, and a vote on Shadow with short reasoning. Although they don't say, the reasoning essentially amounts to Karatallid's case on Shadow and Atrahal. This vote seemed very quickly thrown down after the previous lynch, and I would like to hear more from Cast about why they decided on that. The vote on HP I've already explained why I don't like the reasoning behind, whether it comes from self-preservation or just frustration. At the same time, I think several people, myself included, were voting HP because of a seeming connection with Cast (and through them, to Galayn), so Cast couldn't very well vote for that reasoning. Perhaps a bit of a Catch-22 then for them. I'm uncertain about this now, and I would like to hear what others' think of Cast's voting.

If you had voted me off first and saw my CF as RI, then you would just assume that I was the symp and vote off HP. Since I didn't know whether HP was killer or town, my voting him seemed like the best way to minimize the damage to town. I'm not sure if that made sense.

My Shadow vote was mostly because of his scrambling during the GL lynch, although it did look like Atrhal was symping him.

Korlat, if you are scum then you deserve MOM for this game, because damned if you don't seem townie.

[Korlat]

Cast, on 13 June 2013 - 02:08 AM, said:

Korlat, on 13 June 2013 - 12:43 AM, said:

Cast has an 'I'm not connected!' vote, and a vote on Shadow with short reasoning. Although they don't say, the reasoning essentially amounts to Karatallid's case on Shadow and Atrahal. This vote seemed very quickly thrown down after the previous lynch, and I would like to hear more from Cast about why they decided on that. The vote on HP I've already explained why I don't like the reasoning behind, whether it comes from self-preservation or just frustration. At the same time, I think several people, myself included, were voting HP because of a seeming connection with Cast (and through them, to Galayn), so Cast couldn't very well vote for that reasoning. Perhaps a bit of a Catch-22 then for them. I'm uncertain about this now, and I would like to hear what others' think of Cast's voting.

If you had voted me off first and saw my CF as RI, then you would just assume that I was the symp and vote off HP. Since I didn't know whether HP was killer or town, my voting him seemed like the best way to minimize the damage to town. I'm not sure if that made sense.

My Shadow vote was mostly because of his scrambling during the GL lynch, although it did look like Atrhal was symping him.

Korlat, if you are scum then you deserve MOM for this game, because damned if you don't seem townie.

Yeah, as I said, rightly or wrongly (depending on your allegiance) that HP thing was a bit of a Catch-22 for you. I still don't like the Shadow vote, though. You say he scrambled during the GL lynch, but I don't really see it. And, coming from someone who tried to disparage Tiam's reveal, it seems even worse.

If I was scum I would deserve a fucking trophy for the amount of effort I've put in - also considering that RL has hardly been kind to me the last two weeks. Alas, I dare say my trophy cabinet shall continue to remain bare aside from that tennis cup won some fifteen years ago.

[Cast]

vote Atrahal

I think looking at the lynch trains he's taken the easiest way out each day by voting for low posters and easy targets. Also, I'd kick myself if he turned out to be scum and I was right all along about him.

[Korlat]

I need to go to bed. We have some 16 hours I think. Should be plenty of time to read over Atrahal tomorrow (and to see what they have to say).

[Karatallid]

Bed time for me too! Plenty of time between the time I get up and timeout, so will decide what to do tomorrow!

[Path-Shaper]

It is Day 6. 14 hours and 13 minutes remaining

5 Players still alive: Atrahal, Cast, Hanas, Karatallid, Korlat

3 votes to lynch, 3 votes to go to night.

1 Vote for Atrahal ( Cast )
1 Vote for Korlat ( Hanas )

Players not voted: Atrahal, Karatallid, Korlat

[Atrahal]

Okay first thing I want to say is this. WCS this is D day, for those of you thinking that the symp is dead, wind your neck in. If it turns out that we lynch and it goes to another day then you will know the symp is dead, that should also PI Hanas. Tomorrow if Hanas is alive then he is CI due the guard from Tiam and death that night. FACT. However going off the belief that a symp is alive then Hanas IS the symp. No town would vote night and behave as erratically as Hanas has.

That leaves the killer hiding amongst you three. Cast, Kara and Korlat.

There are things you all have done that have made me change my mind quite a lot. Except Korlat. That should ring bells in and of itself.

So I am going to look at who has mentioned who day one, day two etc.

Personally I find it hard to actually point at another player and say he is town. So for me to do that with Shadow and Korlat is a big thing and a stepping stone in my mafia career. Now will trusting Korlat come back to bite me in the arse, probably but logically it shouldn't. Logic dictates to me that one of Kara or Cast is the killer and I should ask myself who I think is most innocent out of the two. So that is why I am going to go back, and look at things. I am going to write them down in my pad and post my thoughts on thread.

[Atrahal]

So day one through my eyes.

Karatallid

• - Interacts with Desra, HP, Atrahal, Tholen, Silchas, Shadow amongst others.
• Argues with Atrahal, Shadow and Silchas early on
• Emo post number 38, "i'll go back to shutting up because that's how you like it these days"
• Votes Shadow for not looking at D day or seeing it's relevance, says he is trying to blanket the information town are receiving.
• Mentions possible signalling between Shadow and Silchas
• Votes Silchas and ties it into Shadow case

Just noticing that Kara seems to vote the people he has disagreements with. Maybe he hasn't noticed this and me pointing it out may improve his game.

• Gives town notice that he has to leave the thread soon.
• Puts himself out there a lot.
• Going through his posts he is the main protagonist in the Silchas lynch. I am not accusing him of scummy play here, but I can posts at least three arguments for a Silchas lynch coming from Kara. I will do after this quick summary.

Cast

• Interacts with Atrahal, Desra, Hood and Shadow
• makes the "my boss is in town" post after Galayn's post.
• Suspicious about Desra, Shadow and Tholen
• Votes on me based on potential fake signalling, the post she earlier replied to with her own poem.
• Leaves thread around this time and doesn't come back until after day end.

Korlat

• Interacts with Shadow
• Other posts do not quote anyone, just his own thoughts
• Except he prompts Skintick to post
• Suspicious about Atrahal then retracts suspicion
• Votes Shadow
• Agrees with Shadow that the vote he just did was bad but leaves vote anyway
• Disappears until after day end.

Hanas doesn't want to look at day one talkers. Points fingers at Tholen, Atrahal and Gamelon.




So after looking through day one, my thoughts are Kara comes off the most town like in the way he had a high number of posts, he drove the lynch forward, he was honest about leaving the thread but wanting to get the lynch. Cast and Korlat both made bad votes. That is in Korlat's case a vote he didn't believe in and a case that he thought was bad. In Cast's case she picked a potential signal case in where I am fake symping Shadow.




Going through day two now.

[Atrahal]

Day 2. I started off individually but then break away into a mixture.

Karatallid

• Kara's first thought and post is he thinks that a killer might be a low poster due to the no night kill, he also defends his Silchas vote in this post.
• Kara again defends his Silchas vote, says he thought him a symp and explains why we needed to lynch day one
• Says we need to stop jumping onto the littlest of things and that we should look at the thread as a whole
• Says he is happy to vote a low poster.

Cast

• First post she ignores the no kills and lynch, she doesn't mention it at all.
• Berates Shadow for voting for me for the wrong reasons. One of those being "first vote on Silchas". That is a ludricous reason for wanting to vote for someone.
• Second posts says that Kara's whining bugs her. She thinks Kara could be scum.
• Cast says Kara is trying too hard to be town.

Korlat

• Speculates on the no kills (*1)
• One forgetting provisional, guard/healer
• Apologises for absence, "longer than he envisaged"
• Interacts with Atrahal, argues with Atrahal
• Goes through Silchas votes towards the end of day.
• Suspicious of Shadow, Hanas, Galayn Lord and Tholen.
• Says at least one scum is in this pack (*2)

(*1) Regarding point one, wifom so I am not committed to this as we do not know which night Galayn's kill was guarded. Yet both Korlat and Cast where absent for both end of days.

(*2) I analyse the train after Korlat and point at GL's behaviour being scummy because of Shadow pointing to him lurking, ie was there but did not vote and then he comes on and votes. Desra sees this point differently but when Shadow actually points out that he thought GL's behaviour suspect Desra does not respond. Now if we lynch today and get it wrong and go into another day that would not only CI Hanas but then you'd need to find the symp and go off connections. I suggest starting with Desra.

From here I am going to comment on each post as they happened between Kara, Cast and Korlat.

• Cast says that Tiam had biggest impact on swinging lynch train.
• Kara is equally suspicious of Tiam.
• Desra agrees with Cast but ignores what shadow says about GL.
• Kara interacts with Tiam.
• At this stage the votes are spread. Desra adds his vote to Skin. (I am going to stop focusing on him but these interactions early day two make me think he could have been the symp)
• Korlat says Tiam is making a signalling case and doesn't want to follow it.
• Kara agrees with Shadow's case on HP

At this stage. 2 votes Skintick, 1 vote for Shadow and one for HP.

• Cast says she is caught up, yet ignores all the votes and cases and votes for Atrahal.
• This votes is because of my very first post and potential signalling. Yet doesn't comment on other signalling cases.
• Galayn asks if it would not be better to keep me around to see who I am symping.

• Cast says that I could be a killer trying to signal to my symp a possible lynch target

How crazy is this statement? In this game the killers do not know each other or their symp. How the fuck would a killer know who to signal in their first post of day one? What a load of crock.

• Galayn says he doesn't see a killer fake symping anyone and he should know, you know being a killer and all.
• Cast condescends HP for voting Skin.

(If Cast is a killer and is in a position where she knows no one that may be a reason why she doesn't want to vote the low lying players and pushes her vote onto someone whom she thinks is obviously not the killer)

• Korlat highlights Shadow's case on HP
• Then posts a case against Hanas.
• Cast is pissed off with Skin, she looks to be frustrated here.
• She asks if anyone thinks Skin is trying to piss us off.
• Korlat agress with her.
• Shadow points at Cast, GL and maybe Tiam as possible killers. People who have changed their MO since day one. Just pointing out that a killer and guard are in his suspect list, so Cast as a killer is not unlikely.
• Cast says that she is not going to be back before timeout and avoids voting, this is not a town thing to do. We need to lynch as town not avoid it.

My thought on Cast not voting for Skin is that she thinks Skin could be her partner. At this stage Skin has 4 votes and we need 3 for the lynch.

• Kara votes Skin.
• Galayn does not want to vote Skin. I think he could be thinking the same as Cast even though he sees no other option.
• He ends up voting Skin after a brief interaction with her. From this interaction it makes Skin look more town like and less likely to be his partner.
• Korlat arrives after lynch.

So that is two days Korlat and Cast have missed day end. Korlat actually participates in a town like fashion throughout this day, bring up quotes, arguing his point.

Cast however has shot to number one suspect.