Malazan Empire: The "betrayal"? - Malazan Empire

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The "betrayal"?

#1 User is offline   Nocturnal 

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 06:32 PM

Alright, nearing the end of The Bonehunters an uprising of sort started in the Malaz City. The people are convinced that the Wickans betrayed the army. I thought that those were only mean rumours and not that that many people would believe it... I mean it lead to a civil war. Why? Who would spread the false rumours? Why didn't Laseen do anything about the mob marching on the Wickan plains?
How could someone so tarnish the image of Coltaine and his Chain of Dogs, it's plain awful...
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#2 User is offline   Spoilsport Stonny 

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 06:41 PM

http://en.wikipedia....8negationism%29
Theorizing that one could poop within his own lifetime, Doctor Poopet led an elite group of scientists into the desert to develop a top secret project, known as QUANTUM POOP. Pressured to prove his theories or lose funding, Doctor Poopet, prematurely stepped into the Poop Accelerator and vanished. He awoke to find himself in the past, suffering from partial amnesia and facing a mirror image that was not his own. Fortunately, contact with his own bowels was made through brainwave transmissions, with Al the Poop Observer, who appeared in the form of a hologram that only Doctor Poopet could see and hear. Trapped in the past, Doctor Poopet finds himself pooping from life to life, pooping things right, that once went wrong and hoping each time, that his next poop will be the poop home.
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#3 User is offline   Spoilsport Stonny 

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 06:52 PM

View PostNocturnal, on 10 May 2013 - 06:32 PM, said:

Alright, nearing the end of The Bonehunters an uprising of sort started in the Malaz City. The people are convinced that the Wickans betrayed the army. I thought that those were only mean rumours and not that that many people would believe it... I mean it lead to a civil war. Why?


Because they needed the plains to grow food for the empire. And Mallick Rel hates the Wickans.

View PostNocturnal, on 10 May 2013 - 06:32 PM, said:

Who would spread the false rumours?


Why, Mallick Rel and his Claws of course, with perhaps the blessing of Laseen, if not her tacit approval.

View PostNocturnal, on 10 May 2013 - 06:32 PM, said:

Why didn't Laseen do anything about the mob marching on the Wickan plains?


Her people needed food to eat and her hands were tied with Mallick's Claw infiltration. She had no allies and sent her last hope away to die in the streets of Malaz City.

View PostNocturnal, on 10 May 2013 - 06:32 PM, said:

How could someone so tarnish the image of Coltaine and his Chain of Dogs, it's plain awful...


See my link above.
Theorizing that one could poop within his own lifetime, Doctor Poopet led an elite group of scientists into the desert to develop a top secret project, known as QUANTUM POOP. Pressured to prove his theories or lose funding, Doctor Poopet, prematurely stepped into the Poop Accelerator and vanished. He awoke to find himself in the past, suffering from partial amnesia and facing a mirror image that was not his own. Fortunately, contact with his own bowels was made through brainwave transmissions, with Al the Poop Observer, who appeared in the form of a hologram that only Doctor Poopet could see and hear. Trapped in the past, Doctor Poopet finds himself pooping from life to life, pooping things right, that once went wrong and hoping each time, that his next poop will be the poop home.
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#4 User is offline   Nocturnal 

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 07:21 PM

I kinda answered my own questions reading some more. But still, it all seems very weak a reason for slaughtering all the tribes, not to mention that those tribes were their allies. I understand the desperation of Laseen, but turning against the allies only leads to more despair. On top of it all she brings Mallick Rel and Korbolo Dom to her side, I'm so enraged I want to cry.
On the other side, the ending was packed with emotions, this book gets 5 out of 5.
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#5 User is offline   Defiance 

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 09:07 PM

The most important thing to realize is that Laseen was not negotiating from a position of power. While she is still Empress, it's Mallick Rel who is pulling the strings now (and Korbolo Dom too, I guess). The Claw - Laseen's shaved knuckle in the hole if she ever had one - has been thoroughly infiltrated. While Laseen might have been able to fight back, it would have more than likely led to civil war within the Empire.

As others stated, the Wickan Plains were needed for crops due to the plague in Seven Cities. Couple this with the fact that Korbolo Dom absolutely despises the Wickans.

Now, why do the common populace of Malaz City, and perhaps Quon Tali at large, believe this about the Wickans? First, Mallick has been sewing rumors. Second, you have to think about how news travels. Nobody in Malaz or Quon Tali actually witnessed Coltaine's Fall - they have none of the knowledge that we, as readers, have. Just look at how history has been distorted for self-serving reasons in our own world. Every country is guilty of it to some degree, but look at how Hitler seized control of Germany.

Hell, look at modern day society and news within it. How often to people just believe whatever the hell they hear on TV without spending a few minutes to go and check sources. We have the internet at our disposal which allows us to verify almost anything, yet so many don't use it. Now consider the Malazan world, where you can't verify facts.

I agree, turning the Chain of Dogs into something bad is terrible. It pisses me off to no end whenever I read about it. But that's the point.
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#6 User is offline   Rictus 

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 09:23 PM

Not to mention the rabble marching on the Wickan Plains might have had Claws accompanying it, feeding the fires of righteous rage with a bit of Mockra, just to help things along. Perhaps...
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#7 User is offline   Kanese S's 

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 12:23 AM

View PostNocturnal, on 10 May 2013 - 07:21 PM, said:

I kinda answered my own questions reading some more. But still, it all seems very weak a reason for slaughtering all the tribes, not to mention that those tribes were their allies. I understand the desperation of Laseen, but turning against the allies only leads to more despair. On top of it all she brings Mallick Rel and Korbolo Dom to her side, I'm so enraged I want to cry.
On the other side, the ending was packed with emotions, this book gets 5 out of 5.


Keep in mind, in the world this is set in, reliable newspapers haven't yet come about. There isn't really mass media.

Mallick Rel and Korbolo Dom were sent back to the Empire. During the whole time that the 14th Army was chasing Leoman through Seven Cities, Mallick Rel was sitting around in the Empire, infiltrating the claw and drawing influence to himself, and spreading rumors to discredit Coltaine and the Wickans.

Why did Laseen permit this?

Because Seven Cities was the breadbasket of the Empire. Now it's been hit with an enormous plague that's wiped out huge regions of it. The rest of the Empire depended on that grain, and as of the end of The Bonehunters, it's not coming, and won't be for quite a while, probably years.

The result of that would be famine, so Laseen needed an alternative. The Wickan tribes live on relatively fertile plains on Quon Tali. As unpleasant as it is, betraying the Wickans would allow her to avoid famine. Even if you hate Laseen, she probably doesn't want to see the Empire starve, and also, famine is NOT good for political stability.

She had every reason to allow that betrayal.

This post has been edited by Kanese S's: 12 May 2013 - 05:10 AM

Laseen did nothing wrong.

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#8 User is offline   Nocturnal 

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 12:19 PM

I love reading your lengthy explanations whenever I ask something about the books. Makes me want to ask a dozen more trivial questions. :D
Thanks, everyone. :p
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#9 User is offline   Ulrik 

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 02:31 PM

View PostNocturnal, on 10 May 2013 - 07:21 PM, said:

I kinda answered my own questions reading some more. But still, it all seems very weak a reason for slaughtering all the tribes, not to mention that those tribes were their allies. I understand the desperation of Laseen, but turning against the allies only leads to more despair.

http://en.wikipedia..../Trail_of_Tears
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#10 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 03:29 PM

Also worth noting that Mallick's Claw were working some Mokra mojo to kick up the riot at the docks.
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#11 User is offline   Upwood 

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 09:50 AM

View PostDefiance, on 10 May 2013 - 09:07 PM, said:

The most important thing to realize is that Laseen was not negotiating from a position of power. While she is still Empress, it's Mallick Rel who is pulling the strings now (and Korbolo Dom too, I guess).

It's more or less all clear to me now, but why in the first place does Laseen reprieve Malic Rel and Korbolo Dom? Did I miss that in HoC? Did they do sth. for the empire after their betrayal?

Edit: I just saw the first question in the "Ask Steven Erikson" Questions:

Quote

one of the most discussed questions in the re-read threads has been why Laseen allowed the rise of Mallick Rel and Korbolo Dom from prisoners to powerful positions in the empire. Did she think she would be able to use them for her purposes and discard them later, or did Rel have some handle on her from the start that forced her to redeem them?


SE:

Quote

Laseen ... well, al lot of that is for you to decide (in terms of her motivations and so on); but consider this. Throughout this world's history, there are countless examples of very sharp rulers who ended up in a fix and could find no way out of it. Julius Caesar was a brilliant military commander and a shrewd politician, but he ended up dead on the steps of the Senate, and all those talents he possessed did him little good in the end. Forces are always bigger than any individual in their midst, and rapacious people in the shadows of power never stop working their dirty work. So, whatever the circumstances that saw Mallick slink loose, taking Dom with him, Laseen was stuck with it, an empress on a castle of sand, with the water closing in on all sides. Believe it or not, I had plenty of sympathy for her in that scene with Tavore and company (oh, and I simply loved writing those scenes in Mock's Hold).

So a pretty open answer and not really convincing for me. I'm sure she has better suited leaders among her own with a lot more loyality and persons she can form. Both of them have already betrayed her once.

This post has been edited by Upwood: 02 October 2013 - 10:40 AM

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#12 User is offline   lastname 

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 06:52 AM

I understand the part about Rel infiltrating the Claw and leaving Laseen with little choice. The famine doesn't help matters either.

What doesn't compute IMHO is the fact that Laseen allowed these two scumbags to return to Malaz *alive* and fit enough to cause trouble. I get the impression she's usually neither stupid nor likely to let scruples get in her way. She's famous for her purges afterall - both of the Old Guard and of the nobility.
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#13 User is offline   Spoilsport Stonny 

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 01:40 PM

I guess you (the reader) has to just accept that since we know Laseen is capable of ridding herself of nuisances, the fact that she didn't rid herself of Rel and Dom means she either had a reason(s) for keeping either around, or she was incapable. It's Erikson 101 - show, don't tell.
Theorizing that one could poop within his own lifetime, Doctor Poopet led an elite group of scientists into the desert to develop a top secret project, known as QUANTUM POOP. Pressured to prove his theories or lose funding, Doctor Poopet, prematurely stepped into the Poop Accelerator and vanished. He awoke to find himself in the past, suffering from partial amnesia and facing a mirror image that was not his own. Fortunately, contact with his own bowels was made through brainwave transmissions, with Al the Poop Observer, who appeared in the form of a hologram that only Doctor Poopet could see and hear. Trapped in the past, Doctor Poopet finds himself pooping from life to life, pooping things right, that once went wrong and hoping each time, that his next poop will be the poop home.
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#14 User is offline   Sinisdar Toste 

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 04:41 AM

mallick rel is the x-factor not being examined closely enough here. mallick gave himself to the empire. he's not going to do that if he hasn't prepared himself fully enough that he can grease his way in and put himself in a position of power. rel is also a very powerful mage. as per RotCG we know he can
Spoiler
and he also uses mockra. it's his rituals that whip malaz city into a frenzy when the bonehunters arrive. he has the ability to get himself close to laseen, and he has the ability to keep himself alive at all costs.
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#15 User is offline   Kanese S's 

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 12:13 PM

Perhaps, being a Jhistal Priest, he's under some sort of protection when traveling via nautical vessel?
Laseen did nothing wrong.

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#16 User is offline   SpanishDancer 

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 06:11 AM

I was always under the impression that with the purging (and "drownings") of the old guard, that Laseen was left with a deficit of competent commanders, the sort that Kellanved had heavily relied upon during his reign (Urko, Cartheron, Dassem, etc). With the fall of Coltaine, the Malazan empire had lost one of its best veteran commanders. Korbolo Dom and Mallick Rel were two of the best people that Laseen still had available, but Mallick Rel had thoroughly infiltrated the Claw. She could try to give the order to have Mallick taken out, but by this point, she could trust no one, and word could just as easily gotten back to Rel through his agents and the fortunes reversed. Laseen was thus banking on Kalam to take command of the Claw and purge out the compromised elements, this being her last option.

(After reading RG, I'd suggest RotCG next to see what's going on back in the Malazan empire.)
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