[Anthras]

All right, I've caught up. As in my last post, I am not convinced on the Kilava case (even with recent additions to the case). I should mention that I will be low posting during the week as I only have about an hour per night to play mafia. If low posting will get me lynched, I'm shit out of luck. That said, I do try to keep up with the game as best I can.

Mockra, on 15 May 2013 - 05:22 PM, said:

My case against Kilava is based on Day 1 playstyle. Kilava intentionally takes up the banner of a thoughtful, analytic townie, who tries to remain calm when attacked with votes, who tries to critique other's thoughts, and who shouts down the stupid and inane for confusing everyone and preventing meaningful discussion.

This playstyle is a choice, and on Day 1 appears heavy handed and contrived to me (and others). Thus, the case against Kilava is based on the presumed assumption that Kilava is trying to blend in by giving the appearance of a good townie, above suspicion and too valuable to lynch. It is a fairly easy role to fake in my experience (given my playstyle doesn't change much, regardless of my role status, RI or Scum) and done right, people can get through the game misguiding town.

Fortunately, played too earnestly, or nervously (as in Kilava's case, as mentioned by Ruse), the playstyle smells wrong, and inconsistencies, however tenuous, crop up. Kilava fits the bill of someone using the playstyle to hide in plain sight, not as a natural, innocent, helpful townie with nothing to hide.

That is why I vote Kilava and will push to see her lynched today.

I want to like Mockra's case, more so than some of the others that I found to be less than convincing. Mockra's case makes sense, but goes against hard evidence. Most cases in mafia rely on evidence in thread, and this case deals with general agreement on how a seasoned and intelligent player would play scum. Kilava seems to fit the bill with regards to intelligence. My only issue with this idea is that it is based on information that could just as well point to an effective town player, and ultimately boils down to the "smooth" argument.

Pressen, on 13 May 2013 - 10:39 PM, said:

Vote Kalse


This does 3 things, it removes a low poster, it gives us info on a person multiple people have expressed an opinion on, and it help shed light on Kilava without actually lynching them. If Kalse comes back scum then we can almost certainly PI Kilava. If Kalse comes back inno, not much info in regards to Kilava other than she was persistant towards lynching an inno... but in M&P that's the norm rather than the exception.

I still wouldn't mind a Monok vote though as I am loathe to have him be involved in endgame.

I'm not completely against a Kalse vote. A few of you have made some decent cases against Kalse and a potential association with Kilava. But I'm not necessarily convinced Kilava is scum, and as such I feel that it may be more likely that Kalse will come up inno if the presumed association does not exist. And as Pressen says, if Kalse is in fact inno, we don't really get anywhere. To Pressen specifically, why are you worried about Monok being involved late game? His style rub you the wrong way?

Edit: Pressen! (thanks monok), not Serc, not Ruse. Too tired for this shit.

This post has been edited by Anthras: 15 May 2013 - 10:41 PM

[Monok Ochem]

Anthras, your quote broke, it was Elder Presley who said that stuff, appears you quoted Serc - then you addressed it to Ruse, who is on Kilava's case not mine


otherwise, carry on

[Anthras]

woah ok... that explains why it took so long to get that formatting quote thing to work. will edit, thanks for the heads up

[Denul]

Reading up...

[Spite]

Path-Shaper, on 15 May 2013 - 12:13 AM, said:

It is Day 1. 1 hour remaining.

14 players still alive: Anthras, Denul, Eldat Pressen, Kalse, Kilava, Mockra, Monok Ochem, Pallid, Serc, Spite, Ruse, Ryadd Eleis, Thyrllan, Trake

8 votes to lynch, 7 to go to night. 

8 votes Thyrllan: Trake, Pallid, Spite, Ruse, Serc, Ryadd Eleis, Monok Ochem, Thyrllan
1 vote Kalse: Kilava 
2 votes Kilava: Eldat Pressen, Kalse, Mockra

Players not voted: Anthras, Denul

Thyrllan has been lynched. He was town and Khellendros.

Serc has been killed. He was town and Messremb.

It is now Day 2. 36 hours remaining.

12 players still alive: Anthras, Denul, Eldat Pressen, Kalse, Kilava, Mockra, Monok Ochem, Pallid, Spite, Ruse, Ryadd Eleis, Trake

7 votes to lynch, 6 to go to night. 

Players not voted: Anthras, Denul, Eldat Pressen, Kalse, Kilava, Mockra, Monok Ochem, Pallid, Spite, Ruse, Ryadd Eleis, Trake

I know many have discussed this already, but I just wanted to say "WHAT THE HECK?" I don't want to say, "I knew it!" but I was very sure something was entirely odd about Thyr. I was nearly sure that we'd had scum fall into our laps with the way Thyr was behaving on thread. Though, I didn't know it was that great an act. I was thinking it was actually a somewhat new player who felt like milking it to stay alive as a killer. This is extremely odd.

Like a couple people pointed out, Thyr must have been the symp. If not then it doesn't make any sense at all. Though we shouldn't assume the symp is dead for WCS purposes.

The death for Serc could be attributed to anything. The only interactions that seem vital are with Kalse, and someone has already posted the relevant quotes. I'm catching up and will move on to the current cases next, after another quick read.

[Denul]

Or Thyr was thinking that he was being lynched in probably the dumbest lynch ever in mafia, even for day 1, and decided to fuck around.

To be meta, it's keeping with previous games.

Speculating on why Serc was killed is known as WIFOM, I believe.

[Path-Shaper]

It is now Day 2. 11 hours 26 minutes remaining.

12 players still alive: Anthras, Denul, Eldat Pressen, Kalse, Kilava, Mockra, Monok Ochem, Pallid, Spite, Ruse, Ryadd Eleis, Trake

7 votes to lynch, 6 to go to night. 

2 votes Kalse: Kilava, Eldat Pressen
3 votes Kilava: Mockra, Ryadd Eleis, Ruse


Players not voted: Anthras, Denul, Eldat Pressen, Kalse, Pallid, Spite, Trake  

[Anthras]

I won't be around until tomorrow, so I'll drop a vote.

vote Kalse


I've been thinking on it, and though I may not be entirely convinced, Mockra's case is still intriguing, as is Pressen's reasoning for voting Kalse. We have the least to lose by Pressen's reasoning, and if Kalse turns up scum it adds to Mockra's case against Kilava.

edit: removed word

This post has been edited by Anthras: 16 May 2013 - 02:47 AM

[Path-Shaper]

It is now Day 2. 8 hours 32 minutes remaining.

12 players still alive: Anthras, Denul, Eldat Pressen, Kalse, Kilava, Mockra, Monok Ochem, Pallid, Spite, Ruse, Ryadd Eleis, Trake

7 votes to lynch, 6 to go to night. 

3 votes Kalse: Kilava, Eldat Pressen, Anthras
3 votes Kilava: Mockra, Ryadd Eleis, Ruse


Players not voted: Denul, Eldat Pressen, Kalse, Pallid, Spite, Trake   

I won't be around for timeout, but Khell said he'd take care of resolution!

This post has been edited by Path-Shaper: 16 May 2013 - 03:49 AM

[Kilava]

Hey Ruse, I've got a question about your case btw.

Ruse, on 15 May 2013 - 08:33 AM, said:

Kilava is one of the only ones playing to Thyr's role play. Why? Looking for brownie points? Knowing he will turn out innocent which in turn may make Kilava look more town like?

Kilava, on 14 May 2013 - 12:59 AM, said:

For someone playing the confused inno, Thyr still does manage to pull out the standard response to symp cases (based on someone elses actions etc), rather coolly.

What does this even mean?

Mockra said that:

Mockra, on 14 May 2013 - 11:50 PM, said:

Harassing Thyr throughout the day dug his grave

Pallid said in his case:

Pallid, on 15 May 2013 - 06:23 AM, said:

I thought it might be useful to look at how we got to voting Thyr, especially if we think he's symp.

And then implied I was behind it. Of course he then implied that I'd decided to go for my symp to distract from my partner after I'd decided to go for my partner in the first place, or something similarly baffling.

Back to Ruse, what I'm wondering is how you think that Thyr turning up innocent makes me look more town like?

I would also like to take this opportunity to point out that, as it turns out, I was totally right about Thyr acting the noob.

Edited for clarity.

This post has been edited by Kilava: 16 May 2013 - 03:56 AM

[Pallid]

Ok, I'm on for a bit.

So first of all - Ruse and his "lists" and shit is bugging me as well. Seriously. Seriously? Let's cut the crap with claims of scum merely because of a list.

Secondly - I will admit my case was somewhat convoluted. If you'll take note, I did not vote after making it because I had set up what was a possibility in my mind, laid out the pieces, and saw that they only sort of fit. As to Kilava's concern:

Kilava, on 16 May 2013 - 03:55 AM, said:

-snip-

Pallid said in his case:

Pallid, on 15 May 2013 - 06:23 AM, said:

I thought it might be useful to look at how we got to voting Thyr, especially if we think he's symp.

And then implied I was behind it. Of course he then implied that I'd decided to go for my symp to distract from my partner after I'd decided to go for my partner in the first place, or something similarly baffling.

Back to Ruse, what I'm wondering is how you think that Thyr turning up innocent makes me look more town like?

I would also like to take this opportunity to point out that, as it turns out, I was totally right about Thyr acting the noob.

Edited for clarity.

No, I did not mean you intentionally went after your own symp. I meant you may have taken Thyr's stupid posting as a good distraction from your distancing from Trake. If you are scum, I don't even think you knew Thry was (possibly) your symp. Perhaps I implied otherwise, but did not mean to, hope that clarifies things.

Additionally, I'm glad I didn't lay down a vote on Kilava, because as much as Mockra's posts seem to make sense, Anthras makes a good point in that they still just boil down to "smooth-playing argument." Which is on par with the list-making crap.

Eldat Pressen, on 15 May 2013 - 05:22 PM, said:

Vote Monok Ochem

I just caught up. Worthless poster is worthless. Maybe in the Vein of a HO type scum player? I don't know. But day 2 is the time to get rid of low/worthless posters regardless of if you have a strong case. It's early enough that it doesn't harm town too much, and it removes them from the possibility of being involved in late game decisions of which they will either not take part or be...worthless.

So having caught up. I still trust trake (trust being a relative term...I'm not CIing him or anything), I actually liked Pallid's posts. I am leaning towards trusting Ruse... but his quote case against Kilava seem s a bit easy. Like he senses the tide growing against her and wants to add momentum. I am on the fence about Ruse. Kalse is another worthless poster and I don't have a good feel or read. I would be willing to vote them in the same vein as I am voting Monok. Awesome if we lynch scum, not so bad if they are town, as how much help are they going to be end game. I don't trust Ryadd and he is definitely playing to the role of moderate posting scum. I am willing to vote him. Anthras, Denul Spite..still waiting to get an impression. Though I am leaning inno on Denul.

^In many ways I also agree with Pressen's ideas, but would rather vote Kalse for the multiple reasons already mentioned by others. Also it may or may not answer some questions (like if he's scum, then it's nice to know Kilava is town - she at least makes cases and gets the thread talking, unlike other people).

Eeechh, probably goes without saying, but I am not leaning towards trusting Ruse. Not only does he seem convinced I'm scummy because I bother to write out my posts neatly and in a row (and hit "Add Reply" one after the other - oh the horror?), but because I'm gone all day too. Soo here I am. Posting at the same time I always post unless it's the weekend. Another bad move by me, apparently, is a summary (despite the fact I've made a case and state my opinions), and the fact I pointed out it was silly for Mockra to vote for me based on flawed reasoning - the talk about avatars (additionally, I'm still not sure why my response to Mockra was over-the-top? I didn't vote him even, and he said it was OMGUS... so yeah). Oh, and the talk about avatars is yet another reason Ruse thinks I'm scummy. Le sigh.


vote Kalse

I'd be willing to switch to Monok as well. My eye is still on Kilava/Trake, but again, I agree with Pressen that Ruse seems to be taking advantage of the train on Kilava. Which is odd, since most of his posting seems to be about me.

[Pallid]

Eldat Pressen, on 14 May 2013 - 04:26 PM, said:

remove vote

Vote Kilava

So it wasn't as tough a catch up as I thought. I think you are all idiots in your reasoning for voting Thyr. I won't be a part of the train with 8 hours left that will make the lynch inevitable. If you need my vote at L-1 with an hour left, I'll vote to lynch, but I think the reasoning for voting him is ridiculous. Kiliva's play has been, to this point...wait for it....wait for it................almost there..... smooth. ahhhhhhhhh that felt good. So That's where I am placing my vote, though I don't think I'll get much support. I am still willing to vote Serc as well. Honestly, what scum is going to come on and continually post the shit Thyr is posting. Do you think his partner wouldn't be screaming at him off thread to shut the fuck up, telling him what to say to do damage control? But nope, we haven't seen that. It's just been Thyr bumbling around the thread. I don't buy it. This lynch is too easy, and Thyr is not playing like any killer I have seen. I'm not going to be a part of it. Serc and Kilava scum team. Mark it.

Soooo.. wait. I just agreed with you on how Mockra's argument, despite sounding nice, doesn't quite work out because it boils down to a crappy smooth playing case. Yet, this is why originally voted Kilava on Day 1? Explain pls?

Also, you were clearly wrong about Serc at least - unless of course, you mention this to look town-y.

I still get a town vibe from you, but this post did stick out when I looked back over the thread.

[Kilava]

Pallid, on 16 May 2013 - 05:19 AM, said:

No, I did not mean you intentionally went after your own symp. I meant you may have taken Thyr's stupid posting as a good distraction from your distancing from Trake. If you are scum, I don't even think you knew Thry was (possibly) your symp. Perhaps I implied otherwise, but did not mean to, hope that clarifies things.

OK, the basis of the case then basically is:

1. Me and Trake are scum partners and our earlier argument was distancing.
2. Thyr may or may not have been our symp, either way it was a convenient reason to look elsewhere.

I don't really think the Thyr aspect is particularly relevant tbh, just seems a bit of an unnecessary tie in.

I'm not going to take huge issue with the Trake aspect of it.The case on Trake was pretty early. I wanted to prompt discussion, and I felt he had over-reacted to a slight bit of pressure, so I put more pressure on. There are a couple of things in there that I don't like much, such as subtly suggesting that scum would not be vocal/obnoxious, think Ruse also pointed it out. But the day went on, he didn't continue behaving in a way I felt was really scummy, was willing to contribute, put pressure on people, and I felt better things came along, as is often the case with early cases. Thyr was one as you point out, Kalse was another, etc etc. Trake sort of fell by the wayside to some extent, in that he was no longer my number one suspect.

It's a fair enough observation on your part. As cases go though, I don't really feel like I've got much to defend, because really I'd say it's just how the game works.

[Kilava]

Pallid, on 16 May 2013 - 05:19 AM, said:

I'd be willing to switch to Monok as well. My eye is still on Kilava/Trake, but again, I agree with Pressen that Ruse seems to be taking advantage of the train on Kilava. Which is odd, since most of his posting seems to be about me.

Tbh, as today has gone on, Ruse has seemed scummier and scummier, while Kalse hasn't changed much. Though I'm sure that is in part due to Ruse being the one posting.

[Spite]

Denul, on 16 May 2013 - 12:05 AM, said:

Or Thyr was thinking that he was being lynched in probably the dumbest lynch ever in mafia, even for day 1, and decided to fuck around.

To be meta, it's keeping with previous games.

Speculating on why Serc was killed is known as WIFOM, I believe.

I believe you were responding to me with this last comment.

Speculating on why Serc was killed is known as WIFOM. Yeah, I get that. I was only stating that there was a brief interaction between Serc and Kalse, and that this was the only significant interaction between Serc and anyone else that could be considered hostile. Trying to decide what it means that they had this interaction is the WIFOM, and I'm not speculating as to if this did or didn't have anything to do with Serc being killed. It just exists, and since Kalse is one of our primary suspects for today, along with Kilava, I felt it was worth mentioning again.

[Spite]

I don't feel the need to quote a bunch of Mockra's posts, but as far as the Kilava case goes, I can't say I'm ready to get behind a Kilava lynch just yet. Before I read over Mockra's arguments I didn't get much of a scummy vibe from Kilava. I will admit however, that after Mockra's well constructed posts I was feeling somewhat swayed. I think he did an excellent job laying out a case against Kilava, especially with the very little we have to work with. I just don't think I'm ready to vote for Kilava unless it was the only option for getting a lynch today.

I read over the thread a couple of times trying to come up with an original case for today, but I don't see anything huge standing out.

This leaves me with the only other major case today - Kalse. I feel that there is a better chance for nailing scum by choosing Kalse than Kilava. I think that at least we might be able to start building a trail that helps lead us to scum if Kalse comes back so. If not, it helps clear up a case that is obviously bugging a few people very badly.

I'm choosing to vote for Kalse also because, as bad as it may sound, we need to secure a lynch. I think Kalse is leading by a vote, and with mine he'd only be 2 away. I'd rather we not lynch Kilava today at all and a vote on him right now could spell his doom, or create a tie situation where we don't even get a lynch, as we're down to around 5 or 6 hours of non peak time.

vote Kalse

[Kilava]

Decided I ought to take a look at Ryadd, what with his rather wtf vote on me and all. He's been stewing in my mind as a potential symp for a bit, so I thought I'd get it on thread.

First things first, since we're going to have to deal with it. Potential signalling.

Avatar banter. Seems jokey enough, would probably let this slide.

Ryadd Eleis, on 12 May 2013 - 11:55 PM, said:

Pallid, on 12 May 2013 - 11:33 PM, said:

...... and my avatar looks like an electrified zebra. :|

At least you're a fellow critter of flesh and bones. The rest so far are just somewhat sentient mostly empty spaces.

Slightly more dubious interjection here.

Ryadd Eleis, on 13 May 2013 - 06:49 PM, said:

Kalse, on 13 May 2013 - 05:46 PM, said:

Kilava, on 13 May 2013 - 03:11 AM, said:

Also, check my rockin' panther avatar.

Vote Kilava

Only scum would admire a silent stalker killer who is able to hide in the night.

I admire silent stalker night killers. They make wonderful rugs.

I mean, it's the kind of thing you'd maybe stop and reconsider before posting. Still, taken on it's own, maybe just more avatar banter.

Moving on, the person he pushes most to start with is Ruse. Pushes him on his vote, and reaction to Trake. The main thing I noticed though is that the dude is really middle of the road. I say he pushes Ruse, but really that's not the word. Frowns at Ruse? That almost seems too strong. I don't want to quote them all here, but just go read them. It's hugely non committal. One example:

Ryadd Eleis, on 13 May 2013 - 07:17 PM, said:

Trake, on 13 May 2013 - 06:58 PM, said:

Ryadd what is your opinion on Denul and Thy?

None yet. I am curious about Ruse though. I have no problem with a blind vote on a low poster, but Ruse implies that the vote wasn't blind. Not to mention that 10 minutes into the game seems a bit early for pressure voting in the first place. And the reaction to your post seems contrived.

It's all in this sort of vein.

He also went back and forth on Thyr a bunch. No opinion, then agrees with my post (where I say I think the symping case in unlikely), then votes Thyr for symping reasons. Removes vote, claiming to be buying the noob card. Stops buying the noob card, vote returns. Nothing particularly incriminating. Nothing particularly anything at all, just really blah posting. Middle of the road, not really venturing any new opinions whatsoever.

Then jumps onto me this morning with a rather WTF vote. Again, kind of just going with the flow (I'm "smooth"), but kind of adds his own justifcation too.

The interesting part is that his own justification is just plain strange. I know I'm kind of biased here but I'm not the only one to pick up on it.

Ryadd Eleis, on 15 May 2013 - 12:56 AM, said:

Kilava, on 15 May 2013 - 12:15 AM, said:

Damn, Thyr was Khell?
Khell, you suck and you're a jerk.

Actually he doesn't and he isn't. He's pretty good. And he's especially good at surviving. So why didn't he just own up to it and reveal the lie? Riding it all the way serves town zero good. None at all. So either he wanted to fuck over his team intentionally or he really is the symp.

Which makes me want to pressure our silky smooth rug. 'Cause she started throwing up lots of verbosity right after this:

[snip]

I think that that is where Kilava had an 'oh shit' moment and realized that Thyr really was the symp.

Vote Kilava

The poor justification makes it seem like he either just wants to hop on what he thinks will be an easy train and go with the flow, or that he has some ulterior reason for wanting to hop on regardless of justification.

Which brings me neatly back to the earlier sympish interaction between him and Kalse.

Edit for clarity.

This post has been edited by Kilava: 16 May 2013 - 06:39 AM

[Eldat Pressen]

I'm headed to bed. I'm of 2 minds. I like that Kalse is getting heat. I don't like that he hasn't been on to defend himself. Shows lack of interest in the game. But, meh. Gonna stick with my vote. Hopefully we get a couple more in the next 2 hours. I'm gettin more of a inno vibe from Kilava as this day has gone on. Think I am gonna lay off him for now. Depending on how the night goes, it might be time to look at some of the low posting peeps. Of course, I'll always be down for a monkey vote as even after prodding from me he still has yet to post an insightful or provocative post. He insists on being a smart ass who coasts along.

[Kilava]

Spite, on 16 May 2013 - 06:20 AM, said:

Before I read over Mockra's arguments I didn't get much of a scummy vibe from Kilava. I will admit however, that after Mockra's well constructed posts I was feeling somewhat swayed.

Construction is nice and all, but content is kind of crucial, and when you boil it down to it, it's just a case based on playstyle.

The only people you cannot apply "scum want to appear like town" arguments to, are those who have played scummily anyhow.

As a case, it's hard to object to, because it's just the fashionable way of saying "gut". My main objection to Mockra is that it feels like he isn't just reading what is on thread and analysing it, but rather has decided on a target and is trying to make anything stick, regardless of how backed up it is.

As an example of what I mean:

Post 268. Mockra accuses me of being scummy for not pushing my case on Kalse enough.
Post 271. I bring up the actual facts of how much I did push my case.

Post 278:

Mockra, on 15 May 2013 - 12:48 AM, said:

Let's take a different tack [...]

Mockra then builds a case which is essentially a description of how I've played, facts about things I've done, combined with basic facts such as killers wanting to survive and looking like town being a decent way of doing that. Perhaps he decided it was easier just to go for a case on playstyle instead of on thread evidence.

[Ruse]

I'm back going to have a catch up. I am going to address any posts directed at me, look at any cases (if any made) and comment on them, and then afterwards try and give my thoughts on each player so far. I should be around most of today.