[McLovin]

Well, I will say the first season of Firefly is a hell of a lot stronger than other shows' first seasons. The interplay of the characters was great. There was potential there.

I think a lot of people found the Old West aspects a bit too weird, juxtaposed against space ships and such.

I still say airing the eps out of order alienated a lot of potential fans.

On the other hand, if Firefly aired for more seasons, we potentially don't have Whedon directing AVENGERS, which would have been a crime.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

But the old west frontier idea makes sense with the backstory. The Alliance didn't finish terraforming these outer planets, so they are left as this desert, sagebrush environment with nary a resource to be found, left to rot, the people get sick and die and are forced to make a living off whatever is left to them (i.e. the Mudders), so there's the reason for your rebel uprising, which probably never stood a chance anyway, but, hey, you gotta fight for something. Mal's dream was shattered so he decided to buy a ship and make a living by living free. Its hard, but he was tough, and so was his crew.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

Whedon Sheds Light On "Serenity's" New Day


Nice.

[Abyss]

Spoilsport Stonny, on 22 May 2013 - 11:58 AM, said:

.... I think the real question is why DON'T you think it's great?

Because the show spent most of the first season on stock plots and predictable 'twists' while semi-building a back story just to say there was a back-story... there was a lot of 'trust me, this all becomes fantastically relevant and important in a few years' and not enough 'THIS. IS. AWESOME. NOW'. The fact that most of the major plots could be neatly wrapped up in a 120 min movie tells you exactly how complex it actually wasn't.

The characters were more cute than interesting and i realize that worked really well for many many viewers but i wasn't one of them.

The action, what there was of it, really wasn't all that impressive aside from The Train Job.

The semi-old west in outer space setting was a neat idea, but the voiceover or something should have explained it every episode. Yes. EVERY. episode. because new viewers didn't get why the future was so dusty.

Also, the space hooker was just silly.

Firefly could have been great. It could have been the next Trek. It wasn't. Maybe it could have got there with time, but the Buffy/Angel fans fled in droves and the audience digits didn't hold up and Fox did what Fox does.

I think that they should have focused on making tight, great, self-contained, fast-moving eps with interesting characters and left the back-story aside for most of the first season, which btw is what he did with Buffy to great success. Every episode should have featured Wash finding new ways to upgrade the weapons (or maybe just installing some), Zoe shooting someone and Summer Glau stabbing people in the face while her brother cowered and wept like a little girl. And we should have had more than one Reaver in the entire season. CGI ships don't count.

So that's why i didn't think it was great and i watched every episode and the movie so i'm comfortable in my informed opinion.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

Abyss, on 09 December 2013 - 05:12 PM, said:

Spoilsport Stonny, on 22 May 2013 - 11:58 AM, said:

.... I think the real question is why DON'T you think it's great?

Because the show spent most of the first season on stock plots and predictable 'twists' while semi-building a back story just to say there was a back-story... there was a lot of 'trust me, this all becomes fantastically relevant and important in a few years' and not enough 'THIS. IS. AWESOME. NOW'. The fact that most of the major plots could be neatly wrapped up in a 120 min movie tells you exactly how complex it actually wasn't.

Maybe, but it was more complex than TJ Hooker. Not much to shoot for, but its a start.

Abyss, on 09 December 2013 - 05:12 PM, said:

The characters were more cute than interesting and i realize that worked really well for many many viewers but i wasn't one of them.

I think the characters are the strength of the show. They are all flawed and you have to take some guesses as to what got them to where they are. Cute? Perhaps, but there's some darkness underlining them all, and that made them relatable. We all want to be liked, and especially in a future where you have to take risks to follow your own path, the front that one puts on may be more guarded, despite the need to be part of a "family". PErhaps budget issues limited them to less-than-accomplished actors with not-so-great skills, but Nathan Fillion is perfectm Washburn is great, Summer Glau really did well as the tortured soul, Shepherd Book was always a great mystery, and Adam Baldwin played Jayne perfectly. Typecast almost. The rest could have been anyone else. Except Kaylee. I love her. Sometimes I make my wife wear coveralls during.

Abyss, on 09 December 2013 - 05:12 PM, said:

The action, what there was of it, really wasn't all that impressive aside from The Train Job.

No? I thought it was pretty good. It didn't dominate everything, wasn't always the centerpiece, but I thought it all fit well within each story.

Abyss, on 09 December 2013 - 05:12 PM, said:

The semi-old west in outer space setting was a neat idea, but the voiceover or something should have explained it every episode. Yes. EVERY. episode. because new viewers didn't get why the future was so dusty.

Yeah, perhaps the VO intro didn't quite do the job of informing viewers well enough. I know the old west thing was a sticking point for a bunch of people who didn't go to DEFCON 4 with their appreciation. But I stil think it was original and atavistic at the same time. Kind of going back to go forward, what with the popularity of the western genre in the early days of television.

Abyss, on 09 December 2013 - 05:12 PM, said:

Also, the space hooker was just silly.

The world's oldest profession got an upgrade and some legitimacy. Plus it showed a level of empowerment to a long-established female role that in many cases throughout history has lacked such. Sometimes they focused on her a little too much. And sometimes she was absent. She was a nice background character, and without her driving alot of the plot and acting as the ship's cover, it would leave too many questions as to how they get to cruise around outer space without being harassed all the time.

Abyss, on 09 December 2013 - 05:12 PM, said:

Firefly could have been great. It could have been the next Trek. It wasn't. Maybe it could have got there with time, but the Buffy/Angel fans fled in droves and the audience digits didn't hold up and Fox did what Fox does.

I agree it could have been better. I maintain he was going for something different from Buffy and Angel, something that was simultaneously a throwback to golden age TV serials and a look ahead to the future of commercial television (digital effects, complex themes, grey characters with both good and bad traits, etc), so the Buffy/Angel fans will just have to deal with it. I think that Fox gave up on it before it ever got out of the gate and there was a never a vested financial backing for it to make it appear as good as it could have been. But I think superfans of the show know that and, personally, I use my imagination to fill in a lot of the gaps in the areas that had some lack of a finished touch.

Abyss, on 09 December 2013 - 05:12 PM, said:

I think that they should have focused on making tight, great, self-contained, fast-moving eps with interesting characters and left the back-story aside for most of the first season, which btw is what he did with Buffy to great success. Every episode should have featured Wash finding new ways to upgrade the weapons (or maybe just installing some), Zoe shooting someone and Summer Glau stabbing people in the face while her brother cowered and wept like a little girl. And we should have had more than one Reaver in the entire season. CGI ships don't count.

They waited entirely too long for River Tam to get her Psychic Ninja on, thats for sure, and it was certainly a mistake because viewers and the network didn't hang on long enough to see where it was going. BUt the intention to draw it out was noble, and if there were more of an investment in the show I think it could have worked out well in the long run. I agree I would have liked to have seen more Reavers. But considering how badass and powerful they were, how many times could they do the "The crew escaped from the Reavers...again" without it becoming unbelievable?

Abyss, on 09 December 2013 - 05:12 PM, said:

So that's why i didn't think it was great and i watched every episode and the movie so i'm comfortable in my informed opinion.

Like Jayne is comfortable in his knit hat.

I get what you are saying. Your arguments are very similar to my brother's feeling on the show, and we have argued nonstop about this at every opportunity. I understand what and why you feel the way you do. I just disagree with alot of it. Nevertheless you make valid points and there can be no mistaking that the show sunk under the weight of its and others' expectations, despite its immense cult following once it was done for good. The unflattering truth is that it wasnt until the DVDs came out that anyone was really able to understand what was happening, due to being aired out of sequence and for only half of the episodes. For the money that was provided, I think Whedon made something grandly beautiful, and I doubt that it would have received the love it has through the years if there wasn't something to that.

[Abyss]

Points taken, but let's drag this out a post or two further why don't we...

Spoilsport Stonny, on 09 December 2013 - 06:19 PM, said:

... it was more complex than TJ Hooker. Not much to shoot for, but its a start.

TJ HOOKER ran for five seasons and a bunch of made-for-tv/movies.

So what did this complexity get FIREFLY other than cancelled?

...and my point is that a tv show has to work its way up to complexity. There are exceptions, sure, but those don't run on Fox.

Quote

I think the characters are the strength of the show. They are all flawed and you have to take some guesses as to what got them to where they are. Cute? Perhaps, but there's some darkness underlining them all, and that made them relatable. We all want to be liked, and especially in a future where you have to take risks to follow your own path, the front that one puts on may be more guarded, despite the need to be part of a "family". PErhaps budget issues limited them to less-than-accomplished actors with not-so-great skills, but Nathan Fillion is perfectm Washburn is great, Summer Glau really did well as the tortured soul, Shepherd Book was always a great mystery, and Adam Baldwin played Jayne perfectly. Typecast almost. The rest could have been anyone else. Except Kaylee. I love her. Sometimes I make my wife wear coveralls during.

Book's backstory was painfully obvious. Wash was comic relief. Kaylee was fanboy relief. Ew. Baldwin played Baldwin. Filion and Glau did what they did and did it well and Gina Torres can sell Warrior Woman so well i wish they would let her play Wonder Woman. But good and bad, the cast was never the problem.

Quote

Abyss, on 09 December 2013 - 05:12 PM, said:

The semi-old west in outer space setting was a neat idea, but the voiceover or something should have explained it every episode. Yes. EVERY. episode. because new viewers didn't get why the future was so dusty.

Yeah, perhaps the VO intro didn't quite do the job of informing viewers well enough. I know the old west thing was a sticking point for a bunch of people who didn't go to DEFCON 4 with their appreciation. But I stil think it was original and atavistic at the same time. Kind of going back to go forward, what with the popularity of the western genre in the early days of television.

It was original, it was even a good idea, but the storytelling fail meant most new viewers were back to 'guess they could only afford one location shoot'.

Quote

Abyss, on 09 December 2013 - 05:12 PM, said:

Also, the space hooker was just silly.

The world's oldest profession got an upgrade and some legitimacy. Plus it showed a level of empowerment to a long-established female role that in many cases throughout history has lacked such. Sometimes they focused on her a little too much. And sometimes she was absent. She was a nice background character, and without her driving alot of the plot and acting as the ship's cover, it would leave too many questions as to how they get to cruise around outer space without being harassed all the time.

Zoe as warrior and Kaylee as engineer were female empowerment. River as psychic ninja assassin ultimate weapon was female empowerment. Space hooker was silly because i don't care what kind of upgrades they put in her junk, it's still people fawning on someone who sheboings for money and as a part of the worldbuildling it never worked for me.

Quote

... I maintain he was going for something different from Buffy and Angel...

Certainly, but he forgot the golden less from Buffy... engage the audience first, THEN tell them a bigger story.

Quote

They waited entirely too long for River Tam to get her Psychic Ninja on, thats for sure, and it was certainly a mistake because viewers and the network didn't hang on long enough to see where it was going. BUt the intention to draw it out was noble, and if there were more of an investment in the show I think it could have worked out well in the long run.

It was more or less the main over-arcing plotline, and it could have been handled so much better. Either way more subtle, or way more over the top. Instead we got obvious and uninteresting.

Quote

I agree I would have liked to have seen more Reavers. But considering how badass and powerful they were, how many times could they do the "The crew escaped from the Reavers...again" without it becoming unbelievable?

How about 'more than once', and then only some guy who was taken by them and released.

Quote

...The unflattering truth is that it wasnt until the DVDs came out that anyone was really able to understand what was happening, due to being aired out of sequence and for only half of the episodes. For the money that was provided, I think Whedon made something grandly beautiful, and I doubt that it would have received the love it has through the years if there wasn't something to that.

There's no doubt it had its strong points and a fanbase that grew after the fact.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

Abyss, on 09 December 2013 - 07:08 PM, said:

Points taken, but let's drag this out a post or two further why don't we...

Yeah, I'm all in favor of beating this thoroughly deceased equine creature for the sake of avoiding the work I should be doing. Lets have at it!

Quote

Spoilsport Stonny, on 09 December 2013 - 06:19 PM, said:

... it was more complex than TJ Hooker. Not much to shoot for, but its a start.

TJ HOOKER ran for five seasons and a bunch of made-for-tv/movies.

I'm laughing cuz you prolly googled TJ Hooker, and that's always funny.

Abyss, on 09 December 2013 - 07:08 PM, said:

So what did this complexity get FIREFLY other than cancelled?

...and my point is that a tv show has to work its way up to complexity. There are exceptions, sure, but those don't run on Fox.

Yeah and for that I blame Fox and not the show. TJ Hooker had the added benefit of being on one of only 3 channels that most people had access to. Also, the rise of Reality TV and Survivor-type game shows was dominating the public at the time, and the networks were all jumping at the chance to air these much cheaper alternatives. It was a bad time for TV in general and Firefly specifically. You can argue that the complexity killed it, but no one was given the chance to understand the show, and I think that got it cancelled.

Quote

Quote

I think the characters are the strength of the show. They are all flawed and you have to take some guesses as to what got them to where they are. Cute? Perhaps, but there's some darkness underlining them all, and that made them relatable. We all want to be liked, and especially in a future where you have to take risks to follow your own path, the front that one puts on may be more guarded, despite the need to be part of a "family". PErhaps budget issues limited them to less-than-accomplished actors with not-so-great skills, but Nathan Fillion is perfectm Washburn is great, Summer Glau really did well as the tortured soul, Shepherd Book was always a great mystery, and Adam Baldwin played Jayne perfectly. Typecast almost. The rest could have been anyone else. Except Kaylee. I love her. Sometimes I make my wife wear coveralls during.

Book's backstory was painfully obvious. Wash was comic relief. Kaylee was fanboy relief. Ew. Baldwin played Baldwin. Filion and Glau did what they did and did it well and Gina Torres can sell Warrior Woman so well i wish they would let her play Wonder Woman. But good and bad, the cast was never the problem.

No, the cast wasn't a problem, but lets not sell Kaylee short. The episode that revealed her origin on Serenity gave her a good reason for being there. I would not have liked that blonde haired sexy dude at all. Also, as obvious as Book's history may have been, it wasn't detailed and kept his mysteriousness in place, as well as giving voice to a religious figure that brought a different kind of POV to the necessities of the violence.

Quote

Quote

Abyss, on 09 December 2013 - 05:12 PM, said:

The semi-old west in outer space setting was a neat idea, but the voiceover or something should have explained it every episode. Yes. EVERY. episode. because new viewers didn't get why the future was so dusty.

Yeah, perhaps the VO intro didn't quite do the job of informing viewers well enough. I know the old west thing was a sticking point for a bunch of people who didn't go to DEFCON 4 with their appreciation. But I stil think it was original and atavistic at the same time. Kind of going back to go forward, what with the popularity of the western genre in the early days of television.

It was original, it was even a good idea, but the storytelling fail meant most new viewers were back to 'guess they could only afford one location shoot'.

I never felt that way. Can't speak for everyone. BUt there were other differences to this space opera thing, like silence in space, a lack of aliens, that lent it more realism. You know, for a cowboy rocket ship show. I thought that was very refreshing, especially in light of the poor makeup/SFX that shows like Star Trek (TNG and DS9), Babylon 5 and even Hercules and Zena employed.

Quote

Quote

Abyss, on 09 December 2013 - 05:12 PM, said:

Also, the space hooker was just silly.

The world's oldest profession got an upgrade and some legitimacy. Plus it showed a level of empowerment to a long-established female role that in many cases throughout history has lacked such. Sometimes they focused on her a little too much. And sometimes she was absent. She was a nice background character, and without her driving alot of the plot and acting as the ship's cover, it would leave too many questions as to how they get to cruise around outer space without being harassed all the time.

Zoe as warrior and Kaylee as engineer were female empowerment. River as psychic ninja assassin ultimate weapon was female empowerment. Space hooker was silly because i don't care what kind of upgrades they put in her junk, it's still people fawning on someone who sheboings for money and as a part of the worldbuildling it never worked for me.

As a plot device for their cover it worked out great. Also, she was a character that represented feminine beauty, something that a regular person of the time considered a luxury and a relic of the past that they could never achieve. Both Kaylee and River showed special attention to Innoura's dresses and finery and makeup, and all these things that showed off her beauty, no matter what her motives were, and that was sweet in a tragic way. So in one aspect she represented female empowerment, but she also represented aspects of femininity that the other lady characters wouldn't or couldn't display, and sometimes, a girl wants to dress up all pretty. (please ladies do not come down on me for that. I don't mean it in any pejorative sense. I have two daughters and they LOVE to play dress up, as does Mrs. Stonny.)

Quote

Quote

... I maintain he was going for something different from Buffy and Angel...

Certainly, but he forgot the golden less from Buffy... engage the audience first, THEN tell them a bigger story.

I don't think this was the show's fault, but the network's. From the moment Mal pushed that bodyguard into Serenity's engine turbine, I was hooked. BUt the sad part is that that episode didn't air until three months after the show premiered, despite it being the pilot. The major factor that doomed the series was the airing of episodes out of order. It made no sense. And it helped confuse the shit out of the next point of discussion.

Quote

Quote

They waited entirely too long for River Tam to get her Psychic Ninja on, thats for sure, and it was certainly a mistake because viewers and the network didn't hang on long enough to see where it was going. BUt the intention to draw it out was noble, and if there were more of an investment in the show I think it could have worked out well in the long run.

It was more or less the main over-arcing plotline, and it could have been handled so much better. Either way more subtle, or way more over the top. Instead we got obvious and uninteresting.

Well, I see your point, but River and Simon came on board in the first episode and as of this point, Simon had just recently sneaked her out of the lab she was in. But that episode aired way after it should have. In fact it aired AFTER the episode where she first reveals some kind of talent (where she shoots the soldiers in the hospital with her eyes closed). No one knew what she underwent in that lab, and over time, her abilities manifested, mostly out of fear and a desire to protect the crew and her brother. Logically, the timing makes sense, especially if its the over-arcing plot. From an engagement of the audience perspective, yeah, it probably took too long.

Quote

Quote

I agree I would have liked to have seen more Reavers. But considering how badass and powerful they were, how many times could they do the "The crew escaped from the Reavers...again" without it becoming unbelievable?

How about 'more than once', and then only some guy who was taken by them and released.

More than once would have been good. But, in fitting with Mal's character and a desire above all to keep his crew safe, having Serrenity itself avoid anything Reaver is not out of line. They could have certainly shown something not involving Serenity with the Reavers, and they probably should have.

Quote

Quote

...The unflattering truth is that it wasnt until the DVDs came out that anyone was really able to understand what was happening, due to being aired out of sequence and for only half of the episodes. For the money that was provided, I think Whedon made something grandly beautiful, and I doubt that it would have received the love it has through the years if there wasn't something to that.

There's no doubt it had its strong points and a fanbase that grew after the fact.

Which is an obvious testament to its quality.

I don't think its the greatest show ever, but it is the greatest show that wasn't ever given a chance of success. I'm glad it worked ou the way it did, though. I like the little that we got, and its not like any other network would have given it a shot, nor would that mean a guarantee of improvement over what does exist. I wont defend the show to my death. Its certainly flawed. But those flaws only serve to make what exists more charming, more fun.

With all that, if this keeps going I'm going to have start color coding our quotes.

This post has been edited by Spoilsport Stonny: 09 December 2013 - 09:14 PM