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#1 User is offline   Rodders 

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 09:12 PM

Hi, just started this book after TtH so please no spoilers of DoD. I'm only 250 pages in so far, but something just struck me as odd. So odd I felt the need to post before I'd finished the book - den den deeerrrrn.

On page 197 of my copy the warden of Sky tower is investigating the appearance of some desiccated corpses and gives a short back story.

Apparently the stormriders attacked sky tower venomously while they were finishing off construction of the stormwall. If this was the case, why bother throwing themselves against the wall year upon year. Surely they could just sail round it and attack from the landward side. If they needed to attack at all, why not just bypass it completely.


From the back story of Graymane, I understand the Stormriders feel they are entitled to land on this continent, and want to visit some sacred site or pilgrimage. If they can reach Sky tower unmolested, then I fail to see why they attack the wall when they can basically go wherever they want.

I realise I haven't finished yet, but I can't help thinking, this doesn't make any tactical sense on the part of the Stormriders, I mean it's been going on for about 4000 years, doesn't make any sense.

I realise this may be a RAFO and I seriously hope I wasn't just half asleep when I read these parts. Your thoughts as always are greatly appreciated.
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#2 User is offline   nacht 

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 11:29 PM

Think worship, not tactics and RAFO
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#3 User is offline   Rodders 

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 08:42 AM

Thanks for that. I half thought I should just read on, but it was niggling away in the back of my mind.
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#4 User is offline   Rodders 

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 02:53 PM

Just finished. Good read, but still don't see why they didn't go around the wall and attack from behind. They were after the 3 relics and wanted to knock down the wall I believe. I'm sure it would have been easier to demolish the wall once they'd captured it from behind. Hey ho.
Just read through a lot more previous posts and it seems this is just one of a couple of unanswered issues.

This post has been edited by Rodders: 16 April 2013 - 03:33 PM

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#5 User is offline   Sinisdar Toste 

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 12:59 AM

and the most frustrating i'd say. it's possible that the entire wall was a massive altar to the lady and that it had to be pulled down to completely break her power. it could also be that the riders know the lady has co-opted the humans into defending her and they wish to free the humans from her by destroying her most ferocious protectors in the nation of korel. either way, this is where ICE's tendencies to ambiguity have most detracted from a book's quality, imo.
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#6 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 01:20 AM

Both good points, particularly the second, for as we see, the Stormriders really aren't fond of the killing they're doing anyway. I'm sure this question will come up in time during the Tor reread.
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#7 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 03:14 AM

View Postsorrysort, on 18 April 2013 - 01:20 AM, said:

Both good points, particularly the second, for as we see, the Stormriders really aren't fond of the killing they're doing anyway. I'm sure this question will come up in time during the Tor reread.


That is true.

Simplest answer for now, IMO, is that for whatever reason The Lady could repel the Riders from the 3 holy sites as long as her altar/The Wall was intact.

It's a pretty genius defensive move by her, actually - the enemy has to destroy the altar, but attacking it kills the defenders which makes her stronger.

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
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#8 User is offline   nacht 

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 05:10 PM

View PostRodders, on 16 April 2013 - 02:53 PM, said:

Just finished. Good read, but still don't see why they didn't go around the wall and attack from behind. They were after the 3 relics and wanted to knock down the wall I believe. I'm sure it would have been easier to demolish the wall once they'd captured it from behind. Hey ho.
Just read through a lot more previous posts and it seems this is just one of a couple of unanswered issues.


So, you were right and this was a good catch. And ICE did not provide an explanation outright.

From SW,

Quote

He would not have thought them corpses had he come across them alone. Tangled lengths of sun-dried driftwood, perhaps. More than ten individuals certainly, deposited high above the highest of all the tide lines. Yet each was as browned and desiccated as if found within a cave. It had been many years since he, an elder among the Order of the Chosen, had heard of such things.


From SW, Greymane's thoughts

Quote


Devaleth's argument returned to haunt him – not that he didn't know the same doubts: what guarantee did he have that the Riders would not overrun all the lands? Objectively, that much water didn't exist in the world. Subjectively, every observation, action, and account supported his conclusion.


They would strike for the Lady.





In SW, the lady is talking to Hiam

Quote



You failed me, Lord Protector!
He bowed to the floor, abject in his piety. 'My Lady! How? How did we fail? What was our transgression? Let us make amends.'

Amends? You failed! They are upon me! You let them through! You swore to protect me!

'M'Lady, our holy concord remains between us. We will protect the lands as we swore—'

The lands? The lands? You protect me! Me! And you have failed even at that simple task, you wretched fool.

Hiam sat up, puzzled. 'We swore to protect all the lands – under your blessing and guidance, of course.' The lands? You fool! Your blood protected me from my old enemies! And now they are coming!

'Our blood protected … you?'

Yes! Fool! Blood sacrifice forestalls them. But now they are through! What is left to me? Who will—Wait! I sense them close. The ancient enemy. They have followed me even unto here. How will I hide? You! Why did you not die for me? Do so – now!





In NoK, a stormrider perspective.

Quote



Lying half-dead in the foam the Rider had asked a question – a single simple question that triggered an avalanche of inquiry in the old man's thoughts. 'Why are you killing us?' the Rider asked, and he had stared, thinking the alien must not understand what he was asking. Us killing them? They were the demons that cracked ships open and sent men to their doom. But three more times the Rider asked before he'd managed to steel himself sufficiently to reach down close enough to draw his blade across its throat. He would never forget his surprise as the Rider's blood gushed warm and red over his hand.





What is the goal of the stormriders?

They have an ancient enmity with the lady. Perhaps, they would like to get access to some religious "sites". They dont seem to have any interest in the Land of Korel itself, like become overlords or something. They dont want to kill the denizens of Korel.


The wall is a token protection for the land. It does not protect the lady physically. It is scam a that the lady pulled on the Korelri to convince them to sacrifice themselves and others on the wall.

The lady's real protection is her magic sustained by worship and sacrifice. Her magic is so powerful that she was able to suppress the warrens, identify right away mages who were trying to access the warrens and she could kill people(stormriders?) by turning them into dessicated corpses. She is either a manifestation of the crippled gods pieces or uses them as a power source somehow.

So if the real goal of the stormriders is to kill the lady, they have to first stop the worship/sacrifice so that they can breach her magic defenses. The Korelri unfortunately dont listen to them, so their only recourse is to bring down the wall. So basically they are attacking the wall with the intent of bringing it down, i.e. bring down the facade to convince the Korelri that sacrificing people for the wall was not needed. I think Greymane himself understands this clearly, that he has to use the sword to break the wall and the stormriders will go for the lady.







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This post has been edited by nacht: 18 April 2013 - 05:16 PM

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#9 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 08:09 PM

Fantastic!
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#10 User is offline   Geoffray 

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 11:28 AM

View Postnacht, on 18 April 2013 - 05:10 PM, said:

View PostRodders, on 16 April 2013 - 02:53 PM, said:

Just finished. Good read, but still don't see why they didn't go around the wall and attack from behind. They were after the 3 relics and wanted to knock down the wall I believe. I'm sure it would have been easier to demolish the wall once they'd captured it from behind. Hey ho.
Just read through a lot more previous posts and it seems this is just one of a couple of unanswered issues.


So, you were right and this was a good catch. And ICE did not provide an explanation outright.
[...]



What is the goal of the stormriders?

They have an ancient enmity with the lady. Perhaps, they would like to get access to some religious "sites". They dont seem to have any interest in the Land of Korel itself, like become overlords or something. They dont want to kill the denizens of Korel.


The wall is a token protection for the land. It does not protect the lady physically. It is scam a that the lady pulled on the Korelri to convince them to sacrifice themselves and others on the wall.

The lady's real protection is her magic sustained by worship and sacrifice. Her magic is so powerful that she was able to suppress the warrens, identify right away mages who were trying to access the warrens and she could kill people(stormriders?) by turning them into dessicated corpses. She is either a manifestation of the crippled gods pieces or uses them as a power source somehow.

So if the real goal of the stormriders is to kill the lady, they have to first stop the worship/sacrifice so that they can breach her magic defenses. The Korelri unfortunately dont listen to them, so their only recourse is to bring down the wall. So basically they are attacking the wall with the intent of bringing it down, i.e. bring down the facade to convince the Korelri that sacrificing people for the wall was not needed. I think Greymane himself understands this clearly, that he has to use the sword to break the wall and the stormriders will go for the lady.


<br style="mso-special-character:line-break">


This is the more concise and clear explanation of the Stormriders action in SW i've seen so far. Thanks.

This post has been edited by Geoffray: 09 May 2013 - 11:28 AM

Sorry for my english ;), I'm french :P

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