[Illuyankas]

Jesus, it's like a genetic experiment to create the most punchable face.

[LinearPhilosopher]

You know i have my criticisms against sarkeesian, but the overwhelming amount of negative feedback she gets just vindicates her own position. The negative feedback is a stronger argument to how misogynistic the gaming community is then the videos themselves.

[Dolmen 2.0]

Extra credit with a list of solutions to general harassment in online play...slightly NSFW due to derogatory text.

http://www.youtube.c...JgIBXlFN5j-Wzm3

Sorry if re-post. I feel this piggy backs on this threads main subject but is a mainly progressive look at it...some good ideas come through it.

The Cross assault caucus was very unpleasant. Not pleasant at all. Honestly I have never been competitive enough to play online and meet heavily abusive players. I also have the temperament to ignore people I don't like immediately, its not worth it to me. The mute button metric response sounds partially viable but easily manipulated. still if implemented I really could not care if I played someone muted. It doesn't add much to my online play as I usually play sport or fighting games which usually require 0 co-op, harassment is pretty intense in those circles though.

I'm not sure how it would affect Mmorpgs, shoot-em ups or strategy games. My guess is it would deteriorate the value of gaming there especially as I guess as online strategy discussion seems to play a big role. Muting may be a double edged sword as people could run a trolling campaign to mute you unfairly and on purpose. Would the implementation of a muting button record greatly compromise your online experience? would it be a price worth paying for closely monitored harassment servers?

[LinearPhilosopher]

http://www.penny-arc...sode/overlooked

interesting episode

[Shinrei]

BalrogLord, on 16 October 2013 - 12:06 PM, said:

http://www.penny-arc...sode/overlooked

interesting episode

I had no idea this market existed beyond where's waldo... I actually had to look up the definition of "hidden object game" because the episode makers didn't bother to define it within span of my att

[Aptorian]

I was going to post this in the Ye Big Videogame thread but then I thought of the Sarkasian discussion thread.

I am going to hijack the topic and hear if anyone wants to talk about videogames and the hatred that is pointed towards Phil Fish.

This is a 20 minute video that has Phil Fish as the topic but revolves around why Fish is famous and why people are so intent on hating the man. It's quite interesting.



Personally I don't hate Phil Fish. I love him.

Either he is an emotionally unstable jerk or, my personal theory, he is a Master Troll who has the internet eating out of his hand.

What ever is the case, when ever he says anything it stirs the pond and the entire internet is a buzz for a week.

[amphibian]

I have no idea who Phil Fish is. I don't care.

I watched 85% of that video and the best thing about that is the identification of two things - the Final Point #1 (in which they say that because Phil Fish is a white, straight man, he actually experienced a backlash much later than anyone who isn't one or more of those things) and that Phil Fish is a strongly opinionated person with a decent hit/miss ratio inside a sub-culture. Nobody knows who he is outside of that sub-culture.

It's like me talking about Lloyd Irvin to you. I know exactly who Lloyd Irvin is, why he's a nearly beyond belief shitbag and his corrosive effect as a quasi-publicly known person is of unusual significance only to people within my sub-culture. However, you have no idea who he is and honestly, if you do the Googling and find out why he's a shitbag, you'll probably feel worse about humanity and how a big chunk of my chosen sub-culture still doesn't mind him, despite ready proof of his shitbag-ness. So... don't do that Googling unless you're strongly curious.

However, criticism of Phil Fish isn't really the same as criticism of Anita Sarkeesian and feminism within video games. There's a very different dynamic here, even if some areas primarily relating to the all too frequent hyperbolic and threatening backlash from the gaming sub-culture overlap in a hypothetical Venn diagram. So... I'm not sure why this hijack occurred.

[Aptorian]

I wasn't making a comparison between Phil Fish and Anita Sarkasian as people, rather the point the video makes is that hatred spirals out of control.

Fish or Sarkasian say things that we disagree with or threaten our world view. The notion that the player may have to admit that they were wrong or that they are misinformed is unappetizing, so instead they cherry pick quotes or character traits, instead of debating the main issue.

The example of Sarkasian I often see is that people mention that it takes her her too long to make her videos. That somehow the money she received has been misspent but what does this have to with a discussion about women in videogames? Nothing. But it's an easy divergent to change the subject and a go to excuse for disliking her. The discussion becomes about the person and not the issue.

It's a mental fallacy.

[amphibian]

The thing is that Sarkeesian receives much more attacks and harassment than Fish does and started receiving it much earlier than Fish did in their timeline of speaking out for/against something a chunk of the gaming sub-culture held the other opinion of.

[Gust Hubb]

[Morgoth]

So Sarkeesian has received threats so serious she had to move.

The whole Zoe Quinn stuff disgusts me too. And by that I mean those attacking her.

[amphibian]

A friend showed me the ex boyfriend's posting about the end of the relationship. I thought Quinn and her ex were in a toxic relationship in which their problems fed into each other and magnified them.

Totally unhealthy for both and since they hang out with games people 85% of the time, the usual dramatic fallout turns even uglier because the serious gaming crowd has a problem with misogyny and compassion.

I don't think Quinn did anything other than be a normal human being who makes a few different mistakes with sexual/romantic partners.

The behavior of the terrible onlookers is a serious problem that requires continual confrontation from the gamers that don't behave like this. They're not doing this - and things like letting twelve year olds say awful things to people on Call of Duty with impunity is a problem, rather than an annoyance or freedom at play.

[Aptorian]

The threats, doxxing, etc. are exhausting I will give you, but it bothers me that the "mainstream" video game press are refusing to address the heart of the matter, the relationship between press and developers. They're talking about how sad it is for Quinn but few people are willing to actually talk about the matter in anything but the most condescending and dismissive manner.

The forums I'd normally use for other kinds of information, like r/games, are outright deleting any kind of discussion of the matter. It leaves me sort of frustrated. The only comprehensive, "well researched" stuff I have seen on the matter is InternetAristocrats less than objective videos on the subject. I would love it if anyone would actually make the effort to try and refute his examples and arguments because they are pretty damning.

There ought to be a more clear divide between people styling themselves as journalists and the people selling you a product.

The stuff that has been brought to light about Quinn (no not just the infidelity) has certainly painted her as a bit of a shitty human being.

[amphibian]

You have this idea of "press" as a monolithic thing that pays really well.

I would wager that 90% or more of the people covering games make very little to no money. They are doing this for their love of games. They have zero training in how to do anything other than play games and write about them in a way that the audience apparently digs. They have no idea about ethics, about maintaining distance between creator/audience/critic or all too often, how to make a living doing what they want to do.

I know this because for about two years, I was an MMA journalist. I went from unpaid to paid rather quickly and then back down to unpaid when I realized it was a ton of hard work to write truly good pieces that would have a shelf life of years at a reasonable pace (two a week or even one a week). Most people doing the same didn't get paid as well or at all. A tiny percentage are able to make it their only job (maybe 1%) and maybe 0.1% of them have any actual influence on what's covered and how it's covered. I'm convinced that game journalism is the same way - companies like Gawker/Kotaku using free or nearly free labor as often as possible, those who are part of the 0.1% are on TV or at big events and basically none of the big fish are involved with Quinn.

I'm not surprised that Quinn and many others are hooking up with dramatic fallout. When you put a bunch of people who really like the same stuff together for sustained periods of time, they're going to pair off, hook up and all of the usual human casual/formal relationship stuff. Happens in the military, happens in common interest groups, happens at work, happens everywhere it can happen.

What I am surprised at is there's basically zero empathy being shown to Quinn or the men involved with her. Yeah, it's not great, but this is pretty normal human being stuff. It's not like there's a giant cover-up, crime being committed or damaging lie perpetrated upon people.

[Khellendros]

The way that the loud, obnoxious, opinionated mob which claims to represent gamers on the internet has treated the Zoe Quinn fallout disgusts me so absolutely.

Case in point: http://themalesofgam...uinn-story.html

Of course, I should have been warned by the name of the blog. On the surface, this appears to be a deeply analytical, extremely in-depth dissection of the events. It purports to be a discussion about the relationship between video game developers and video game journalists. It even starts by saying that the revelations which Zoe Quinn's ex decided to splatter over the internet are private matters, and not relevant.

......


But of course, after that, if you count the number of times he brings it up - in the most crudely judgemental way - as if it somehow was relevant to the supposed discussion, you will run out of fingers to count on pretty fast.


The reactions which Quinn, Sarkeesian, Fish et al have been subjected to represent the very worst behaviour of closeted, privileged, spoiled, vicious, disgusting children who deserve nothing but contempt themselves. Attempting to cloak this sort of behaviour under the banner of a supposed censored discussion on developers and journalists is pathetic (I'm not pointing to what you said above, Apt, but rather to those like in the link I've provided).

There is no discussion to be had because these types of people have 1) Not earned the right to have any such discussion with the way they act, and 2) Are, in any event, not interested in having a reasoned discussion on this in the first place. They would much rather vilify someone's sexual history instead, or hack someone's private account details, or post threats of rape and murder.


I cannot bring across quite how angry this makes me feel. I love games. I absolutely love them, and never seem to have enough time to play them. I love them in terms of entertainment and in terms of an art form. But then to think that this is the loudest, most visible side to the gaming community - people who supposedly love games too - shames me.

[Aptorian]

Weaver of High House our new tyrannical overlord whom we bow before, on 02 September 2014 - 04:26 PM, said:

You have this idea of "press" as a monolithic thing that pays really well.

I would wager that 90% or more of the people covering games make very little to no money. They are doing this for their love of games. They have zero training in how to do anything other than play games and write about them in a way that the audience apparently digs. They have no idea about ethics, about maintaining distance between creator/audience/critic or all too often, how to make a living doing what they want to do.

I completely agree, in fact most people in the industry would agree that they are not really "journalists". They don't have any degree's related to their field and many of them call themselves enthusiast press.

How ever there is a core of these people, the ones who represent namely Kotaku, Polygon and Rock Paper Shotgun, who have a lot of clout and a lot viewers/readers. It doesn't matter what their pay grade is, it is problematic that the relationships between media and developers/publisher blur. There is an insestuous way to how they co-mingle. Not that I have a problem with there being friendly relations between the two. I actually think this is a great thing. It leads to more open dialog and more insight into the industry, the best example of this being Giant Bomb. Giant Bomb are very friendly with a whole bunch of people on the inside of the development side of gaming, which leads to some great interviews and social situations that I haven't seen anywhere else. How ever, Giant Bomb also has a policy that states that when they do foster those relationships they don't review these peoples games. Which is why there are no reviews of Super Giant Games' or Iron Galaxy's games. I like that. It's fine.

How ever, when the press start backing Kickstarters of friends, when they donate money through Patrion, then that becomes an issue. Money has changed hands and a higher degree of interest and personal involvement is evident. When people are friends, maybe even close friends, maybe they even live together, then writing articles about a developers game becomes a really murky proposition, because how objective is the writer really?

Now don't get me wrong, I don't believe in all this conspiracy bullshit the manchildren Are up in arms about. These people are grown up and they have a moral set or principles that I am sure they abide by, but a higher degree of transparency is still to be prefered I think.

Weaver of High House our new tyrannical overlord whom we bow before, on 02 September 2014 - 04:26 PM, said:

What I am surprised at is there's basically zero empathy being shown to Quinn or the men involved with her. Yeah, it's not great, but this is pretty normal human being stuff. It's not like there's a giant cover-up, crime being committed or damaging lie perpetrated upon people.

Are you kidding? All across the industry I have seen pretty much nothing than support for Quinn and condemnation of the doxxing and personal attacks.

The guys on the other hand I don't know but I suspect nobody really cares about them, it's more important to focus on the poor oppressed female hero developer or the vile manipulative seductive harlot who is ruining videogames... depending upon what side of tumblr you got up on today.

And there is a sort of cover-up going on. Albeit it appears to be one of silence and deflection. The press focuses on poor Zoe Quinn and they don't discuss the allegations of improper business relations. But hey, can you blame them? It's hard to see a problem when it's your every day social interactions on Twitter or Facebook that is the issue.

[amphibian]

Let me clarify further, as I see there is indeed a good chunk of people who are trying to support Quinn and the others:

I'm surprised that there are significant numbers of people who show zero empathy towards Quinn and the men involved.

It's not enough to call them "manchildren" because that implies that it's acceptable for children to behave this way. Understandable, maybe, but never acceptable.

There needs to be more people like you, Gnaw? (this name change gets me confused) and the others speaking out against the loud, angry and toxic people. When that happens, the discussion calms down and actually goes productive places. I've done the same in MMA chatrooms during a fight when idiots are yelling about steroids, fucking this person or that person and eventually most of them realize that it's more fun to play nice than it is to yell and break things.

[Aptorian]

I am Apt. Hence the eye.

Anyway, the thing is, it's not like the people who support Quinn or Anita Sarkassian play nice either. They make threats as well, they doxx people as well, they harass and twist everything to be an attack or insult to the feminist/indiedeveloper/tumblr snowflake bastion that they sit in.

I know that is a really childish "But they did it too" argument, however of what I have heard of seen of both sides of this argument I just don't give a fuck. Much like Phil Fish, if you use Twitter or Tumblr to pick a fight, even if the other guy started it, when the other sides hits back faster and harder I just don't have that much sympathy. Is all the personal attacks and misogyny awful and unwarrented? Oh yes, but from what I have seen from Quinn's side of the playing field I think they're reaping what they sow.

I say all of this as a social media ludite. Really, if people are being mean to you on your twitter machine, fucking delete the programme. I know that is a sort of impossible notion when the video game industry is so hooked on networking via Twitter messages but fucking hell, just stop using Twitter. And stop picking fights with people who don't play by the rules.

[Illuyankas]

So if you worked using your phone, and people rang you all day every day telling you about how you deserve to be raped to death, you'd just tear out your phone line? Or throw your mobile away? Should they quit their jobs because some assholes threw a hissy fit? Why is it their responsibility to not get abuse?

I'm also struggling to find something that justifies the rape and murder threats in the non-misogynist side's actions. And you are, unless you meant to use a different phrase than 'reap what you sow'.

[Aptorian]

Grand Chef of High House Decay, on 02 September 2014 - 08:02 PM, said:

So if you worked using your phone, and people rang you all day every day telling you about how you deserve to be raped to death, you'd just tear out your phone line? Or throw your mobile away? Should they quit their jobs because some assholes threw a hissy fit? Why is it their responsibility to not get abuse?

But here's the thing Illy. Twitter isn't a telephone or an e-mail account. It's not even an internal communication service. Twitter isn't a private communication line. Nothing about Twitter is essential for any body's daily life except for people who want exposure.

Specifically Quinn is a vocal twitter user. Look up her Twitter today and you will most likely find her in some kind of conversation that probably revolves around the "Quinspiracy" (by the way that turned out to be one hell of a foreshadowing) or something feminist related. That is to say, Quinn uses her Twitter account as a soap box. She speaks to the masses and she is able to set great things in motion. That is awesome when it is a force for good.

Unfortunately, if you use that kind of tool to give yourself attention, if you take a stand, then there is always going to be an opposing reaction. That is internet thermodynamics.

And honestly, what kind of dolt uses Twitter for business related matters? It's an open door into your private life and business. Normal people use their e-mail or the telephone. Twitter is an abyssmal way of communicating. 120 letter messages? How nuanced a perspective are you capable of conveying via that media? Not much more than hyperbole and dull witted insults.

Grand Chef of High House Decay, on 02 September 2014 - 08:02 PM, said:

I'm also struggling to find something that justifies the rape and murder threats in the non-misogynist side's actions. And you are, unless you meant to use a different phrase than 'reap what you sow'.

Like I said, the threats are unwarranted and the typical reaction of people who are not articulate enough to form a 3 syllable word.

But hey, lets completely avoid the subject of the more rabid side of the feminist brigade who also use threats and suggest that people who don't agree with them are scum that deserve to die.

Most public example recently being that whole "Fine Young Capitalists" fiasco where a couple of tweets from Quinn had a well meaning company's reputation tarnished, the owner doxxed, threatened on his life and the company lost 10,000 dollars, just because Quinn didn't like their concept.

None of these people play nice and everyone wants to be the victim. Meanwhile I am just sitting over here eating popcorn watching the shit pile up.