[nacht]

This ROTCG quote got my attention.

Quote

‘Do not lie to your High Priest, Mael. It is only through the rituals of Jhistal that you yet have a presence here in the world.’

From BaB

Quote

It's T'riss. Sour's voice whispered in Murk's ear.
Murk raised his gaze. The Azathanai was peering beyond him, a playful smile at her lips. 'Greetings, Sour. You are well informed. As I would expect.'

'And the other?' Murk enquired slowly, 'if I may ask?'
'She has withdrawn. Released all that she ought to have released ages ago. And who knows, perhaps she will learn to accept all she ought to have accepted all these ages. She no longer manifests a presence directly here in the mundane. As for the future,' she gave a small shrug, 'who can say?'

'A goddess in truth,', Murk murmurred.
'Precisely, Together with all that comes with it - desired or not.'

'And yourself? Murk asked, emboldened enough to lift a brow.

The woman's smile broadened and she spread her arms. 'Myself? I am merely an Enchantress. Nothing more. Now, '

TCG quote

Quote

He kicked his way through the clutter, the crumpled helms, the crushed iron scales, the bones that crumbled into dust and lifted grey clouds to swirl about his legs. Ahead, across an expanse of level land buried in corpses, was a mound of the same twisted bodies, and from the top of that mound rose the trunks of two trees, bound at the centre to form an upright X. The remnants of a body hung from it, flesh in shreds, black hair hanging down over the desiccated face. Silchas Ruin could see, even from this distance, the long-shafted arrow buried in the figure’s forehead. Here, in this place, realms folded one upon another. Chaos and madness in such profusion as to stain time itself, holding horror in an implacable grip. Here, the skin of a hundred worlds bore the same seared brand. He did not know what had happened at this battle – this slaughter – to leave such a legacy, nor even the particular world in which the actual event had taken place. He slowly crossed the killing field, towards the mound and its grisly shrine. Other figures moved about, walking as if lost, as if seeking friends amidst the faceless thousands. At first he’d thought them ghosts, but they were not ghosts. They were gods. His passage caught the attention of one, and then another, and then still more. Some simply looked away again, resuming whatever it was they were doing. A few set out to intercept him. As they drew closer, he heard their voices, their thoughts. ‘A stranger. Interloper. This is not his world, this is not his curse, this is nothing to him.’ ‘He comes to mock us, the fragments of us snared here.’

‘He does not even hear the cries that so deafen us, all these chains of desire…’ ‘And despair, Shedenul, so much despair…’ Silchas Ruin reached the base of the mound, studied the twisted bodies before him, a steep slope of solid bone, leathery flesh, armour and shattered weapons. A half-dozen gods gathered around him. ‘Tiste Liosan?’ ‘No, Beru. Tiste Andii. His white skin mocks the darkness within him.’ ‘Does he belong in the war? He is dangerous. We don’t want him anywhere near us when we slay the Fallen One. When we feed and so free ourselves—’ ‘Free?’ growled one in a thick, heavy voice. ‘Mowri, from the legacy of our followers we shall never be free. This is the bargain we made—’ ‘I made no such bargain, Dessembrae!’ ‘Nevertheless, Beru. Mortal desire gave us shape. Mortal desire dragged us into all their realms. It was not enough that we ascended, not enough that we should seek out our own destinies. I tell you, though most of me still walks a distant world – and his howls of betrayal deafen me – in curse and prayer I am knotted here like a fist. Do I desire worship? I do not. Do I seek ever greater power? I have been shown its futility, and now all my purpose settles like ash upon my soul. Here, we are trapped, and so we shall remain—’ ‘Because that fool Master sanctified Kaminsod’s theft! The Fallen One was wounded. Made useless with pain. And with that Master’s cursed blessing he raised the House of Chains, and with those chains he bound us all!’ Dessembrae snorted. ‘Long before the first rattle of those chains, we were in shackles – though we amused ourselves by pretending that they did not exist. The Master of the Deck and the Fallen One dispelled the illusion – no, they dispelled our delusions – and with them all their sweet, precious convenience.’ ‘I do not need an upstart like you telling me all I already know!’ ‘You do, when you would feed your reason with false indignation. We shall soon gather in another place little different from this one, and there we shall commit murder. Cold, brutal murder. We shall slay a fellow god. Before his heart is sundered, before the Unknowable Woman can ever reach the Fallen One, or attempt whatever it is she intends, we shall kill him.’ ‘Do not so easily discard that woman, Dessembrae,’ said a new voice, a woman’s, thin and crackling. ‘She is sibling to the Master of the Deck – a Master who hides himself from us all. How can this be? How has he managed to blind us to his whereabouts? I tell you, he hovers over all of this, as unknowable as his sister. This wretched family from that wretched empire—’ A cane cracked against bones, splintering them, and Silchas turned to see that a new god had arrived. Indistinct, a smear of shadow. ‘Dessembrae,’ this one hissed, ‘and dearest Jhess. Beru, Shedenul, Mowri. Beckra, Thilanda, see how you crowd this Tiste Andii? This brother of Anomander Rake? Do you imagine he cannot hear you?’ The cane jabbed at Dessembrae. ‘Look at us, so fey in reflection of our once-mortal selves. The Empire, yes! Our empire, Dessembrae, or have you forgotten? That wretched family? Our very own children!’ ‘Oh, look around, Shadowthrone,’ snarled Jhess, her face of skeined wool, cotton, hemp and silk twisting and knotting as she bared web-shrouded teeth. ‘D’rek has come and gone from this place. She knows and makes for us a true path. Your damned children cannot hope to defeat us. Leave them to the Forkrul Assail! May they devour each other!’ Shadowthrone giggled. ‘Tell me, Jhess, do you see your cousin anywhere near? Where is the Queen of Dreams in this place of death?’ ‘She hides—’ ‘She is not here, Jhess,’ said Shadowthrone, ‘because she is awake. Awake! Do you understand me? Not sleeping, not dreaming herself here, not plucking all your mad tails, Jhess, to confuse mortal minds. You are all blind fools!’ ‘You mean to betray us!’ shrieked Shedenul. ‘I care nothing for any of you,’ Shadowthrone replied, with a laconic gesture of one ethereal hand. ‘Betray? Too much effort over too little of worth.’ ‘You come here only to mock us?’ ‘I am here, Beru, because I am curious. Not about any of you. You’re nothing but gods, and if the Assail succeed you will all vanish like farts in the wind. No, my curiosity is with our unexpected guest, our Tiste Andii.’ The cane waved at Silchas Ruin. ‘O brother of heroes, why do you bless Coltaine’s Eternal Fall with your presence?’ ‘I seek a weapon.’ ‘The two you carry are not enough?’ ‘For a companion. This battle you all seem so eager to join, I could warn you against it, but I admit that I see little use in that. You are all determined to join the fray, leaving me to wonder.’

‘Wonder what?’ demanded Beru. ‘When the dust settles, how many of your corpses will I see upon that field?’ Silchas Ruin shrugged. ‘Do as you will.’ ‘Your brother slew our strongest ally.’ ‘He did? And of what significance is that to me, Beru?’ ‘You are as infuriating as he was! May you share his fate!’ ‘We shall all share his fate,’ Silchas Ruin replied. Shadowthrone giggled. ‘I have found you a weapon, but only if the one who wields it is worthy.’ Silchas Ruin looked round. ‘From this place?’ ‘No, not from here. There is nothing to the weapons here but memories of failure.’ A sword appeared from the shadows swirling round the god and clattered at the Tiste Andii’s feet. Looking down, he drew a sharp breath. ‘Where did you come by this?’ ‘Recognize it?’ ‘A Hust…but no.’ He hesitated. ‘I feel that I should, knowing well that sacred forge. The draconic theme is…distinctive. But the ferrules remind me of Hust’s earliest period of manufacture, and I thought I knew all of those so made. Where did you come by this?’ ‘Of little relevance, Prince. You note the draconic theme, do you? What is the term? Pattern weld? So you might think, to see those scales glittering so prettily along the length of the blade.’ He giggled. ‘So you might think.’ ‘This weapon is too good for the one I intended to arm.’ ‘Indeed? How…unfortunate. Perhaps you could convince your friend to take the ones you now wield? And for yourself, this singular weapon. Consider it a gift to you, from Shadowthrone.’ ‘And why should you so gift me?’ Silchas Ruin asked. ‘Perhaps the others here bemoan the loss of Hood. I do not. He was hoary and humourless, and ugly besides. Thus. If I cannot convey my best wishes to Hood’s noble slayer, then his brother shall have to do.’ Silchas Ruin looked back down at the Hust sword. ‘When we were children,’ he muttered, ‘he used to steal my things all the time, because he liked to see me lose my temper.’ He paused, remembering, and then sighed. ‘Even then, he was fearless.’ Shadowthrone was silent. The other gods simply watched.

‘And then,’ Silchas Ruin whispered, ‘he stole my grief. And now, what is there, I wonder…what is there left to feel?’ ‘If I suggested “gratitude”, would that be insensitive?’ Silchas Ruin shot the god a sharp look, and then said, ‘I accept the gift, Shadowthrone, and in return I offer you this.’ He waved at the other gods. ‘This mob ill suits you. Leave them to their devices, Shadowthrone.’ The god cackled. ‘If I was blood kin to this family, I’d be the uncle slumped drunk and senseless in the corner. Luckily – dare I risk that word? – I am not kin to any of them. Rest assured I will humbly heed your advice, Prince.’ Silchas Ruin picked up the weapon. He looked at the gods, his crimson eyes slowly moving from one ghastly face to the next. And then he vanished. Dessembrae wheeled on Shadowthrone. ‘What was all that? What scheme are you playing at?’ Shadowthrone’s cane snapped out, caught the Lord of Tragedy flush across the bridge of his nose. He stumbled back, fell on to his backside. Shadowthrone hissed, and then said, ‘The best part of you wanders the mortal world, old friend. Long ago, he surrendered that emptiness called pride. At last, I see where it fetched up. Well, it seems one more lesson in humility shall find you.’ He glared at the others. ‘All of you, in fact.’ Beru growled. ‘You snivelling little upstart…’ But then his voice fell away, for the Lord of Shadows was gone. ‘Busy busy busy.’ Cotillion paused on the road. ‘It’s done?’ ‘Of course it’s done!’ Shadowthrone snapped, and then grunted. ‘Here? What are we doing here?’ ‘Recognize the place, then.’ ‘Pah! Not more regrets from you. I’m sick of them!’ ‘I am marking this site one more time—’ ‘What, like a Hound pissing against a fence post?’ Cotillion nodded. ‘Crude, but apt.’ ‘What of you?’ Shadowthrone demanded. ‘Did you return to Shadowkeep? Did you send her off? Did she need a few slaps? A punch in the nose, a quick roger behind the keep?’ ‘She needed only my invitation, Ammanas.’ ‘Truly?’ ‘Of all the wolves on one’s own trail,’ Cotillion said, ‘there is always one, the pack’s leader. Cruel and relentless. Show me a god or a mortal with no wolves on their heels—’ ‘Enough talk of wolves. This is me, after all. Fanged, eyes of fire, foul fur and endless hunger, a hundred beasts, each one named Regret.’ ‘Just so.’ Cotillion nodded. ‘So you put her on a horse and gave her a blade, and sent her back down her own trail.’ ‘To kill the biggest, meanest one, aye.’ Shadowthrone grunted again. ‘Bet she was smiling.’ ‘Find me a fool who’ll take that bet,’ Cotillion replied, smiling himself. The Lord of Shadows looked round. ‘See none hereabouts. Too bad.’ The air filled with the cries of gulls.

I feel the mysteries of the Malazan "God" system are addressed right in this section, but it is still hard to comprehend. Who are the gods? Why are some free (like the Errant, Mael, Triss) ? Where do they physically exist? How are they related to the Deck of Dragons? How do they get their power? How do they exercise them?

[Gnaw]

nacht, on 25 December 2012 - 02:24 AM, said:

Who are the gods? Where do they physically exist? How do they get their power? How do they exercise them?

See, now those are easy questions to answer. Just get a ham and pineapple pizza* and ask those questions of Her Holiness. If you ask with the right mix of humbleness, rationality, and inquisitiveness, She will reveal Her Pinkness and give you the answers to all your questions metaphysical, metafictional, and metaphorical.






*

Spoiler

A couple of bong hits might help.

[Defiance]

Well, we now know that many of the "gods" in the series are Azathanai. The Azathanai are as mysterious as their houses; while we know a great deal about the Azath and the Azathanai, we still don't quite know where they've come from. Are they the Malazan world's creators? We might be able to assume something of this sort from Forge of Darkness, but don't forget that before Forge many of us believed that Mother Dark created the world. As a result, most stuff is just theory. But here we go.

Who are the gods? The gods are beings of power with worshipers. Many, if not all, of the Elder Gods seem to be Azathanai, who possess mysterious but powerful abilities of creation. I think we can assume that the power of being a god comes directly or indirectly from the Azathanai - Mael, Errastas, Kilmandaros, etc. are all Azathanai, and yet they all manifest their powers in unique ways. This encompasses the Warrens (and further back, the Holds and then Wandering) that many mages (and gods) use and reside in. Even the power of something like chance, which Oponn plays with, seems to come from the Azathanai (since the Errant is of their blood, and his power is different than the typical warren power).

We know that even Azathanai can be killed. Kilmandaros, Sechul Lath, and Olar Ethil are examples of this.

The quote from Mallick could be him just trying to talk big, but there's another way to look at it. Gods seem to be able to fade from the world. Specifically, Azathanai. K'rul faded for a long time (although this was due to Kallor's curse), during which time he had no worshipers. I don't think Mael has ever really lacked for worshipers, though, so who knows. We do know that he stopped listening to them for quite some time, up until the end of Midnight Tides at least.

Gods seem to physically exist right where they are. My reasoning behind this is stated above: they can be killed. Of course, this dismissed the Fall of Coltaine warren-thingy found in The Crippled God. It's a very revealing passage, but I still have no idea what to make of it besides that it illuminates the fact that worshipers control and put a face on their god as much (if not more so) than gods control their worshipers. It seems that gods can either conform/go along with this (self-perpetuating cycle of pain and hatred that The Crippled God wove), or say fuck you guys and kill all of their worshipers in order to break free (D'rek killing her priesthood at the beginning of The Bonehunters). Of course, concerning the physical existence of gods, we do have beings like Shadowthrone who seems to be able to be in many places at once. I would argue that this is more of a power of shadow than anything. Beyond this, we have the fact that killing powerful beings permanently isn't always the easiest thing to do (or isn't always desired). I point to Scabandari in this case. I'm not sure if he was considered a god among the Tiste Edur at the time of his death, but his soul was certainly able to survive without a physical body.

How is it all related to the Deck of Dragons? Well, we know that the Deck (and the Tiles) are able to divine the intentions of gods/warrens/things. I'd have to read the series and look specifically for relevant quotes, but I think that both of these are basically tools of order, a way to instill patterns upon things in order to resist chaos. I'm sure we could go a lot deeper into this, but for whatever reason everything related to the Deck has slipped my mind at the moment.

Where do they get their power? This ties back to what I was saying at the beginning. From the Azathanai, or perhaps the Azath. Gods like Shadowthrone use warrens, and we know that warrens at least are a part of K'rul's magical blood. Where exactly we draw the line on this is not quite clear - to where do the Holds belong? Are they independent of themselves? Who created them? We know that Kharkanas and the lands in Forge of Darkness have to get split/turned into warrens at some point, which speaks a lot about the power of the Azathanai (K'rul did make the Imperial Warren as well, after all). Concerning the Azath houses, we know that they allow access to everything everywhere, so are they merely structures helping to maintain order or actually the creators themselves (despite the fact that they can die)?

Where do the gods live? Wherever they want. In warrens that have been created, in the mortal world, wherever, really. Again, that disregards the multiple aspects of them, such as when we consider Dassem and Dassembrae. But are they even one and the same person? Or has worship created a new god in and of itself?

Trying to figure out the origins of the universe in the Malazan world is just as impossible as trying to find it out in ours. Eventually, we're going to hit a dead end, after which point wild theorizing is all that we can do. Magic makes things even more complicated, but that's the beauty of it - magic is supposed to be mysterious, and if we knew every little bit of exactly how it worked then it wouldn't really be interesting. That said, I do love finding out more stuff, and I'm very excited to see where the next two Kharkanas books take us in terms of revelations about the Azathanai and their houses.


All of this to say: I have no fucking clue, man.

[nacht]

While the real word might or might not have a creator.., the Malazan world definitely has two and it appears that they started off with a coherent and consistent system :-)
It is quite complex but I feel at this point, they dropped enough hints (and books :-) for us to figure this out if we gang up on it.. (I feel like they are challenging us especially with the tCG section which came out of nowhere) I think they intentionally played us using MD and FL because it is a very common creation myth in a lot of cultures so that they could have the satisfaction of punking us later.


My hypothesis..


Ascendants become gods if they
1. have worshipers
2. sanctioned by the master of the deck to be part of the deck of dragons or sanctioned by the Errant to part of a hold system.

From the "BaB" and "RotCG" quotes, it appears that those ascendants who choose to be gods have to remove themselves from being free players in the physical world and have to influence it only through their representatives in the deck and through their priesthood class.

CG has Munug create the cards for the house of chains and then they are sanctioned by Paran, master of the deck.
Each God seems to have some choice about who their representatives are (king, consort, kinght what not..). It is almost like they get to choose in what form they want to be worshiped.

At one point, in RG or DoD, Mael gets locked in his temple... Maybe they have some presence in their temples.
Fener, got pulled down to earth from somewhere.. and manifested physically in the world so that he could be killed... (he is still quite powerful in the tCG and his blood has some massive effect on the tlan imass)

It seems that gods like Mael, T'riss and Ardata have figured out some loopholes in this contract so that they can play directly in the physical world.
Also the master of the deck and the Errant have some control on the "gods" once they agree to be bound by the deck. In DoD, the Errant seems to have the power to force the gods to get together for a meeting..

Prior to the holds, it seems that the worshippers offered blood sacrifices and this made the gods very powerful independent actors...and the worshippers got some power/benediction in return
But K'rul choose to make the power available to everybody by creating the warrens. He created the warrens by making a deal with the dragons..

So the warrens became an alternative power source... People no longer need to be worshipers to get access to power
Powerful ascendants like Envy can directly use the warrens for power rather than depend on worshippers and blood sacrifices

A side effect of being part of the deck is that an adept at divination like Fiddler could do a reading and expose the presence, player and plans of the gods.. That is why the players seem to freak out when there is a reading...

I am having difficulty seeing how "independent" players like Oponn, obelisk, Icarium fit in the deck and what rules they follow. They are not gods, they are not representatives of gods but somehow the deck tracks them..

.

This post has been edited by nacht: 25 December 2012 - 09:20 AM

[Silk]

if anything this series is about balance, so for every deck aligned personage there needs to be a force of unalignment that will bring randomness into being otherwise everything would be predetermined and nothing anyone does can change the outcome... i.e Chaos balances order in a way that stops order form stagnating to a point where everything ends to lack of progression brought about by random interaction, such as a stone thrown into a stagnant pond........

[D'iversify]

Where do the Gods live? In Dunmanifestin of course!

[Acorn]

I think I'll take a stab at this question, or rather series of questions that are way too complicated to be pigeon-holed into a few short questions...

The Gods of the Malazan world are typically defined as:

And entity that has control over one Aspect in the world.

Examples: Mother Dark is the Goddess of Dark. Shadowthrone is the God "of shadow". Mael is the God of the Seas (some hints at him being overall God of WATER in general throughout the series as well if memory serves) Hood is the God of Death. Oponn is the God/Goddess of Luck/Fortune (Oponn and the Wolves of Winter are the only shared godhood that I can recall)

There are others who are VIEWED as Gods by mortals but are NOT Gods in the general parameters understood by me and expressed by others. (IE Being the ruler of a "House" or "Hold", being able to create or "hire" others to fill out your House's servants such as a King, Herald, Knight etc)


Examples: Anomander Rake - he is worshiped by some of the Tiste Andii (Such as Clip and the others in his home) but he is NOT a "God" but an Ascendant. Icarium - he is in the Deck of Dragons as Lifestealer and he is worshiped by an entire race or people (The "Mockers" as revealed in Reaper's Gale), Kallor - he was both worshiped and cursed, and is not a God/

These of course are not perfect rules to go by, as some Ascendants... well Ascend into Godhood if a vacuum is left by another god's death or abandonment.

Example: Trake's rise to God of War, even though he was a "First Hero" which I've always assumed and considered a step BELOW Ascendancy, though it very well might just be a different name for the same thing.

These rules are further compounded by the Holds, which hold (haha, get it!) sway over some of the same things as some of the Houses. War, Luck/Chance and so forth... This is also where a couple of Elder Gods come in as "unaligned" in the Deck of Dragons.

Examples: K'rul being the Obelisk (at least in one or more of the books, I don't think the Obelisk represents just ONE God).

Unaligned cards are not necessarily Gods in their own right. Icarium is one example listed above.

Spirits are often worshiped as Gods by a people, and can be considered "Ascendants" in my book, as they rarely have very much power, and usually show less interest in the world as a whole than in their strangle-hold on their one "people". Most of the time these Spirits don't even have the power to rival an Ascendant, look toward the "Seven" who become vassals of The Crippled God in order to gain true power.



So, for me it breaks down a few ways.

First, a God or Goddess is someone who is ruler of a High House or a Hold. And as Ruler (NOT always "King or Queen")
Second, a God or Goddess must have at least one sanctioned Altar (As is proven in tCG with Fener and in the book where Feather Witch eats an eyeball.)
Third, a God must have at least one sanctified priest or priestess (As is proven with D'rek and Banaschar)
Fourth, a God must be able to influence the mundane world through direct and indirect means. (ABLE to, not necessarily "does")
Fifth, a God must be in control over a Warren or Hold-world (Shadow, Thyr, etc)

Any Ascendant or even some immortals may fit one or more of these things, but that doesn't make them a God... just powerful. What is it that Apsalar says... Being an Ascendant only means you're harder to kill?


As for where the Gods live... That answer is much more straightforward...

"Any damned where they want" is the correct answer.

If you've read far enough in (and having read your post I assume you have) then you've seen references to "Other Worlds" where some Gods live and focus on. There are also many Gods who live inside a Warren or Hold, such as Shadowthrone, the Wolves of Winter, and many more. There are still others who live in the mundane world of the Malazans and other peoples, Mael is the most obvious. Most of the Elder gods lived on the Lether continent, but not all. Some don't really lay claim to one particular place and roam instead.

So they, as Gods, can be where-ever they damned well please... And that's pretty much where you'll find them, and if you shove the right munition in the right orifice you may even be able to make them move out!

This post has been edited by Acorn: 26 December 2012 - 01:22 AM

[nacht]

Acorn, on 26 December 2012 - 01:21 AM, said:

So, for me it breaks down a few ways.

First, a God or Goddess is someone who is ruler of a High House or a Hold. And as Ruler (NOT always "King or Queen")
Second, a God or Goddess must have at least one sanctioned Altar (As is proven in tCG with Fener and in the book where Feather Witch eats an eyeball.)
Third, a God must have at least one sanctified priest or priestess (As is proven with D'rek and Banaschar)
Fourth, a God must be able to influence the mundane world through direct and indirect means. (ABLE to, not necessarily "does")
Fifth, a God must be in control over a Warren or Hold-world (Shadow, Thyr, etc)

Any Ascendant or even some immortals may fit one or more of these things, but that doesn't make them a God... just powerful. What is it that Apsalar says... Being an Ascendant only means you're harder to kill?

I agree with most of these rules. Especially the first.. and I think that is what gives the Master of the Deck and the Errant some level of power over the gods
Disagree with the fifth though. I think a lot of the "new" warrens exist because of K'rul (and his deal with the Elient) and a person can use them if he has the talent without having to worship the gods.
Though some of the elder warrens might be controlled by the Elder god directly.

There is an in interesting line in the Bonehunters where Sorrit the elient is killed and I think Icarium says something like "Osserc" is now the last line for the Serc warren or something...
Maybe the gods are caretakers of the warrens..

[Acorn]

nacht, on 26 December 2012 - 06:52 PM, said:

I agree with most of these rules. Especially the first.. and I think that is what gives the Master of the Deck and the Errant some level of power over the gods
Disagree with the fifth though. I think a lot of the "new" warrens exist because of K'rul (and his deal with the Elient) and a person can use them if he has the talent without having to worship the gods.
Though some of the elder warrens might be controlled by the Elder god directly.

There is an in interesting line in the Bonehunters where Sorrit the elient is killed and I think Icarium says something like "Osserc" is now the last line for the Serc warren or something...
Maybe the gods are caretakers of the warrens..

I said "Control of a Warren or Hold world", not just use of one.

For instance, Osserc controls Thyr, I think it was, since he was able to close the borders completely to outsiders, as is stated in B&B... The same thing can be said for others, Shadowthrone (somewhat I suppose) controls the Shadow realm. Hood controls the warren of Death... Burn controls a warren, D'riss maybe? but still. As far as I can tell nearly all "Gods" in the series control a specific Warren as their Aspect.

K'rul created the Warrens, yes, but this does not mean he specifically controls them. As far as I've been able to see, it was a "one-off" trick, and in doing so he reduced his own power quite a great deal. That's what happens when you bleed yourself near death...

I'm not certain of anybody that I would actually call a "God" that doesn't have their own Hold or House (Which are represented in magic as warrens, thus giving the logic that they control a warren or Hold-realm) I'm sure I've got some Gods mixed with the wrong warren, but even if we aren't shown exactly which warren or world a God or Goddess controls, it stands to reason that they would have one of their own.

This is one reason why I think of Paran as only an Ascendant, not a God. Because he doesn't actually control his own warren. The Errant would be in the same shoes as well if he hadn't crossed over from "neutral Master of Tiles" to "Crazy sick and twisted, malicious God of nudging".


Of course this is just from my own understanding, and I've been known to be wrong =p

If you can think of any certain God or Goddess that doesn't seem to Control a warren or hold, post away, maybe I can see what you mean! =)