[Starling]

On the one hand, I think it's possible that Bubba kept bringing up the picture as a way of trying to figure out what people thought about it. Several times I've had roles I've had to stop myself talking about them and giving things away. Then again, all of his info, apart from his comment about Tatts, is available to anyone reading the thread.

And am I missing something? If Bubba can do a find every second night, and found Tatts the first night, who did he find last night? And if he could only do a find on the second night, what did the first picture mean?

[Starling]

Tattersail, on 11 December 2012 - 09:32 AM, said:

Starling, on 04 December 2012 - 02:59 PM, said:

I'm not particularly convinced by either case.

Tatts has been talking all game about switching to Venge, but it is interesting that he refrained from switching until Shin came on, even though there were two votes on Venge already.

I need to get some sleep. It's 4am.

So I'm having trouble with Tatts. His content is problematic. He's fingered several people as scummy but is voting for neither of them. So I distrust this sudden swing away from one train. For that reason, I'm voting HO.

Vote HiddenOne.

Has problems with me but votes HO. Same a different day, has problems with me but votes Azath I think. Constantly picking away at me but voting elsewhere.

This doesn't mean a lot. I had thought you were a symp, and therefore hoped that you would point out the killer. I've always said there is no point in voting for a symp. In addition, at the point in the game where I posted above there was a whole one vote on you, and not a lot of time left in the game. It would have been worse than useless to vote you, as I would have been accused of trying to derail the lynch.

[Tattersail_]

Something about Starling. I made a comment about finding her scummy. She comes on and makes this post. She has been absent most of the game but comes on when she garners some heat. What got me day one was her not reading the thread, not answering questions or expanding on comments made from questions she asked.

Tattersail, on 04 December 2012 - 07:49 PM, said:

If you think me a symp then lynch me today, it'll screw us over if you leave it until D day and then lynch me.

Starling is a great shout for being scum. I'll see about a case in the morning

Is she gloating about KL here? She got to kill her friend?

Starling, on 04 December 2012 - 10:25 PM, said:

Poor KL, first game she's been able to play for ages and she's NKed first night. Sucky.

So, Tatts has a problem with me...

Tattersail, on 04 December 2012 - 07:49 PM, said:

If you think me a symp then lynch me today, it'll screw us over if you leave it until D day and then lynch me.

Starling is a great shout for being scum. I'll see about a case in the morning

As far as I can tell, it's because I didn't respond to this post:

Tattersail, on 04 December 2012 - 02:13 PM, said:

Starling, on 04 December 2012 - 02:04 PM, said:

Shinrei, on 04 December 2012 - 01:44 PM, said:

Upon reading, my top picks (ho aside) are venge and bubba who are fake attacking each other for shits and giggles.

I got a similar vibe from the Em and Tatts spat earlier in the day.

Tatts, earlier you said you were pretty convinced that Em was scummy. What has made you change your mind?

My mind isn't changed but I cannot create a case properly yet. I agree with what Bubba said about Venge, about what Gusty said on Khell and I was keeping my eye on EM. I am looking for special connections and who isn't speaking to each other on thread.

and because he feels I was defending Venge. Who was innocent.

The problem I have with Tatts is that he bounced around all day dropping votes like it was going out of style. He got defensive whenever he was called out, which is why he labelled both myself and KL as scummy. He first brought up that he was willing to vote Venge 10 hours before time out, then left it another 5 hours before changing his vote, while at the same time saying he "didn't want to be the guy starting a new train with 5 hours to go". Also, his comment "If you think me a symp then lynch me today" (above), strikes me the wrong way. There is no advantage to town lynching a symp unless it's getting close to D-day and we need to reduce the scum voting block.

So I'm getting a symp vibe from Tatts. From the way his vote changed when Shin came on, I think Shin is one of the killers. I'll need to do a proper re-read before I can decide who I think the other killer is.

Vote Shinrei.

She links herself to KL here when we know KL turned out to be innocent. Incidentally KL may have known if Starlings play was off. This case, this post all feels wrong. She votes for Shinrei for me changing my vote when he came on, I don't know if the timing was true, but she earlier mentions my votes jumping around. This post seems like scrambling to me which does make her look a little scummy.

[Tattersail_]

Gust Hubb, on 04 December 2012 - 11:04 PM, said:

I'm not sure what you are doing Shin (or Starling for that matter). Shin, you seem to support my case against Azath, but use that as a jumping point to go after khells. Starling, you spend a whole post casting aspersion on Tats and then vote Shin. Is this a game where we vote tangentially to our cases?

Gust Hubb picks up on this too.

[Tattersail_]

Starling, on 05 December 2012 - 02:23 AM, said:

Shinrei, on 05 December 2012 - 12:54 AM, said:

Starling, on 04 December 2012 - 11:36 PM, said:

Shinrei, on 04 December 2012 - 11:07 PM, said:

Tatts might be playing spastically, but hes not stupid. What you describe starling would be some truly foolish symping.

remove vote

Since khell pointed out im accusing him of being dumb when he clearly isnt . Crazy he is, but not dumb.

For the most part, I think his play has been rather good symp play. Bounce around leaving lots of votes, stir up confusion, and give us lots of inno trains to talk about, while scum sit around nodding sagely and contributing as and when they feel like it.

I'll admit that the switch was clumsy, but the way he did it bothers me. He had been talking about it for hours, why would he only switch with 5 hours to go?

Its clumsy, but not any different from his day one play. That whole sequence was clumsy because of the crosspost voting, but that is how it should be read. If he is in fact a symp, fake symppage of me makes more sense than him actually following a killer

A) because i am not scum
because tatts isnt an idiot to symp a real killer like that.

To be honest though, I dont have a judgement of whether or not he is a symp from that sequence because at the time the crossposting made it look weirder than it really was.

It's as much the behaviour before that as the confusion around the change of vote and all the cross-posts.

I'll concede though that if Tatts is a symp he is unlikely to be symping you, although I have problems with the meta aspact of that argument. For now

Remove Vote

So now after people disabuse me of symping Shin she retracts her vote but the case wasn't good anyway. I think it could have been scrambling.

[Starling]

Dude, KL is one of my RL best friends. I am actually sad that she didn't get to play more of this game. Why the hell would I bring her up if I had killed her? What is the use of "gloating"? And why on earth would I be scrambling when I'd garnered no heat?

[Tattersail_]

Blend, on 06 December 2012 - 01:59 AM, said:

Alright so I don't hate the case against Azath so I will be willing to put my votw there, but I can't say that I love it either.

I think that Tats pointing out that the KL nk was meant to make him look bad when no one else even hinted at that is a little suspect, like maybe he is trying to turn us away from that before someone else picks up on it. But I can totally see that as scum trying to point us at him, specially given that KL's vote was on him at the end of the day, if I am not mistaken. Seems like the kind of mistake Tats wouldn't make.

Gust and HO's recent back and forth kind of struck me as a little like distancing. Like, HO says something a little innocuous about Gust and Gust calls him out on it. Am interested to see where that goes.

I also feel like Starling hasn't really been involved in anything much at all, I think maybe he is trying to lie low. Gonna go read up a bit more to see what contributions he has actually made, if I don't find anything interesting I think I will probably vote that way.

Blend says it here. Scum pointing fingers towards me. He also mentions HO and Starling in this post. He mentions that he could vote for Starling but I don't think he ever does.

[Starling]

Tattersail, on 11 December 2012 - 09:52 AM, said:

Starling, on 05 December 2012 - 02:23 AM, said:

Shinrei, on 05 December 2012 - 12:54 AM, said:

Starling, on 04 December 2012 - 11:36 PM, said:

Shinrei, on 04 December 2012 - 11:07 PM, said:

Tatts might be playing spastically, but hes not stupid. What you describe starling would be some truly foolish symping.

remove vote

Since khell pointed out im accusing him of being dumb when he clearly isnt . Crazy he is, but not dumb.

For the most part, I think his play has been rather good symp play. Bounce around leaving lots of votes, stir up confusion, and give us lots of inno trains to talk about, while scum sit around nodding sagely and contributing as and when they feel like it.

I'll admit that the switch was clumsy, but the way he did it bothers me. He had been talking about it for hours, why would he only switch with 5 hours to go?

Its clumsy, but not any different from his day one play. That whole sequence was clumsy because of the crosspost voting, but that is how it should be read. If he is in fact a symp, fake symppage of me makes more sense than him actually following a killer

A) because i am not scum
because tatts isnt an idiot to symp a real killer like that.

To be honest though, I dont have a judgement of whether or not he is a symp from that sequence because at the time the crossposting made it look weirder than it really was.

It's as much the behaviour before that as the confusion around the change of vote and all the cross-posts.

I'll concede though that if Tatts is a symp he is unlikely to be symping you, although I have problems with the meta aspact of that argument. For now

Remove Vote

So now after people disabuse me of symping Shin she retracts her vote but the case wasn't good anyway. I think it could have been scrambling.

Again, I had no reason to be scrambling. Shin himself disabused me of my case, and as it was only ever meant to be a pressure vote I retracted it.

[Tattersail_]

Blend, on 06 December 2012 - 02:10 AM, said:

Alright, upon closer inspection, I can say that I'm a little more suspicious of Starling. Day 1, he didn't really participate much - a post asking Tats why he moved away from supicions of EM, then voting for HO cause he was suspicious of the train redirect. I personally thought the case on HO was crap, yesterday, so I wasn't terribly surprised when the train redirected. Venge was certainly acting a bunch more scummy, even if he did CF as inno.

The thing that bothers me, though, is his behaviour for this day. He basically spent the entire day trying to paint Tats as a symp. He votes Shin, accusing him of having redirected the train, when there was like a triple cross post (which, admittedly, I was a part of) that all moved the train from HO to Venge, and pushing the idea that Tats is Shin's symp. When Shin rebuffs the accusations, he backs off from the Shin attack, but maintains his suspicions of Tats being a symp. I think that Starling is, in fact, the symp, and that he's trying to paint Tats as a symp so that we'll disregard Tats as a possible killer, or that we'll let him slide thinking that he's a symp, so there's no point in voting him off.

I know this jives with my earlier statement about Tats not being dumb enough to kill someone as obviously linked to him as KL was, but, I dunno, Starling's behaviour just rubs me the wrong way. For now, I will

vote Tattersail

As I think he's probably being protected by Starling.

I would still be willing to move my vote to Azath, but I think this is at least as solid a case, so I thought I'd put it out there.

Okay so I think this case is full of so much shit I can still smell it from here. He is trying to paint Starling as a symp. Of me.

WTF is that about. It gets people thinking Starling is not going to CF as scum. So he is suspicious of Starling yet he votes for me.

Starling did this in a round about way with Shin also.

Smacks off off thread comms this.

[Tattersail_]

Starling, on 06 December 2012 - 03:07 AM, said:

Blend, on 06 December 2012 - 02:10 AM, said:

Alright, upon closer inspection, I can say that I'm a little more suspicious of Starling. Day 1, he didn't really participate much - a post asking Tats why he moved away from supicions of EM, then voting for HO cause he was suspicious of the train redirect. I personally thought the case on HO was crap, yesterday, so I wasn't terribly surprised when the train redirected. Venge was certainly acting a bunch more scummy, even if he did CF as inno.

The thing that bothers me, though, is his behaviour for this day. He basically spent the entire day trying to paint Tats as a symp. He votes Shin, accusing him of having redirected the train, when there was like a triple cross post (which, admittedly, I was a part of) that all moved the train from HO to Venge, and pushing the idea that Tats is Shin's symp. When Shin rebuffs the accusations, he backs off from the Shin attack, but maintains his suspicions of Tats being a symp. I think that Starling is, in fact, the symp, and that he's trying to paint Tats as a symp so that we'll disregard Tats as a possible killer, or that we'll let him slide thinking that he's a symp, so there's no point in voting him off.

I know this jives with my earlier statement about Tats not being dumb enough to kill someone as obviously linked to him as KL was, but, I dunno, Starling's behaviour just rubs me the wrong way. For now, I will

vote Tattersail

As I think he's probably being protected by Starling.

I would still be willing to move my vote to Azath, but I think this is at least as solid a case, so I thought I'd put it out there.

I have a couple of things to say about this.

Tatt's behaviour struck me as much more sympish than that of a killer, I feel he is putting himself out there too much, particularly with the amount he was changing his voting, and the way he switched with only 5 hours to go, from someone who was at L-1 to someone who had only a few votes. I never accused Shin of redirecting the lynch, but I did find it odd that as soon as he came on Tatts changed his vote. My vote for Shin was mostly fishing for a reaction, and as Shin's response made sense I removed my vote. I'll vote for Tatts if necessary, but I think it is a waste.

I'd also like to ask you what you found so absolutey scummy about Venge's play, since the whole case against him was that he was "playing too nice". I think there were a bunch of people playing scummier, in particular Gnaw, that no one has so much as blinked at, so I'm a little confused as to how you came to that conclusion.

So you think me part of scum team but you think it is a waste lynching me?

Contradicting yourself here.

[Tattersail_]

Gust Hubb, on 06 December 2012 - 04:07 AM, said:

Blend, on 06 December 2012 - 01:59 AM, said:

Alright so I don't hate the case against Azath so I will be willing to put my votw there, but I can't say that I love it either.

I think that Tats pointing out that the KL nk was meant to make him look bad when no one else even hinted at that is a little suspect, like maybe he is trying to turn us away from that before someone else picks up on it. But I can totally see that as scum trying to point us at him, specially given that KL's vote was on him at the end of the day, if I am not mistaken. Seems like the kind of mistake Tats wouldn't make.

Gust and HO's recent back and forth kind of struck me as a little like distancing. Like, HO says something a little innocuous about Gust and Gust calls him out on it. Am interested to see where that goes.

I also feel like Starling hasn't really been involved in anything much at all, I think maybe he is trying to lie low. Gonna go read up a bit more to see what contributions he has actually made, if I don't find anything interesting I think I will probably vote that way.

I agree that preemptive covering for one's potential mistakes (as Tats did) is suspicious. I do remember him doing that in other games though, so I ned more to convince me. However, in some ways, Tats is hard to read. He always spams, always looks scummy, always tries to shake things up on day 1. It's his MO. So to say that any of those are evidence enough to lynch him is weak and cliched.

The thing with Tat's is you need to look for a mistake. He talks a lot, so he does make slip ups that give him away. If you find and prod one of these slip ups, he often gives more away. I'll take a much closer look at his summary (which he asked if my summary was scummy since scum make lists; kind of ironic if you ask me) which should be a wealth of information.

As for your distancing comment, I am definitely trying to avoid HO's kissy face. Why he has chosen to warm up to me as opposed to other players is odd. His behavior is so sympish, I am tempted to call it a caricature.

So what I'm really wondering is HO trying to shield himself by tagging along with me or is he using such a tried and true method to get me in the spotlight. What's odd is a real symp wouldn't do such a thing to their killer master (at least not in their right mind), but rather this is a tactic used by townies trying to glean information or killers trying to steer the thread.


Starling is still lying low (a lazily so) and Gnaw is still posting mostly crap.

I do love seeing you and Khells turning vehemently on Azath. Pretty strong reactions for those supposedly unrelated.

Another thing I notice on my re read is that Gust Hubb constantly mentions Starling lying low. Here is an example. He is always watching and ever careful. Once he mentions Blend could be scum then that was it he had to go.

I'm still not convinced on Starling but there is some there that suggests she could be a killer. My main post that makes her look scummy is coming up I think.

[Tattersail_]

Starling, on 06 December 2012 - 12:09 PM, said:

Ok, finder reveal. Not the best I've seen, but it's usually worth testing.

I'm happy to hammer, unless anyone wants to discuss anything more?

Shows some discord about the reveal but is willing to test it. Proves she was around before lynch.

Need to check if she was around afterwards once Blend arrives. They'd need to confirm each others order.

[Tattersail_]

Starling, on 06 December 2012 - 12:31 PM, said:

This is going nowhere

Vote EmperorMagus

Hammers EM. Scum tactic used in the past.

[Starling]

Tattersail, on 11 December 2012 - 09:57 AM, said:

Blend, on 06 December 2012 - 02:10 AM, said:

Alright, upon closer inspection, I can say that I'm a little more suspicious of Starling. Day 1, he didn't really participate much - a post asking Tats why he moved away from supicions of EM, then voting for HO cause he was suspicious of the train redirect. I personally thought the case on HO was crap, yesterday, so I wasn't terribly surprised when the train redirected. Venge was certainly acting a bunch more scummy, even if he did CF as inno.

The thing that bothers me, though, is his behaviour for this day. He basically spent the entire day trying to paint Tats as a symp. He votes Shin, accusing him of having redirected the train, when there was like a triple cross post (which, admittedly, I was a part of) that all moved the train from HO to Venge, and pushing the idea that Tats is Shin's symp. When Shin rebuffs the accusations, he backs off from the Shin attack, but maintains his suspicions of Tats being a symp. I think that Starling is, in fact, the symp, and that he's trying to paint Tats as a symp so that we'll disregard Tats as a possible killer, or that we'll let him slide thinking that he's a symp, so there's no point in voting him off.

I know this jives with my earlier statement about Tats not being dumb enough to kill someone as obviously linked to him as KL was, but, I dunno, Starling's behaviour just rubs me the wrong way. For now, I will

vote Tattersail

As I think he's probably being protected by Starling.

I would still be willing to move my vote to Azath, but I think this is at least as solid a case, so I thought I'd put it out there.

Okay so I think this case is full of so much shit I can still smell it from here. He is trying to paint Starling as a symp. Of me.

WTF is that about. It gets people thinking Starling is not going to CF as scum. So he is suspicious of Starling yet he votes for me.

Starling did this in a round about way with Shin also.

Smacks off off thread comms this.

This may just be the stupidest thing you've ever said. Why the hell, if we had off thread comms, would we use similar strategies to attack people?

I've always said that there is no point killing off the symp. The symp can lead you to the killers, and the symp can't kill people. The only time killing a symp is worth it is when D-day is approaching and town need to reduce scum's voting bloc.

[Tattersail_]

Shinrei, on 06 December 2012 - 09:55 PM, said:

Bubba, on 06 December 2012 - 09:45 PM, said:

I think the scum want us to dis-trust and lynch Gnaw or Az, That's the only reason I can see one of them not getting NKed last night.

There is possibly a different explanation. After Azath posted his reveal, the only people who were posting before Starling's hammer were:

HO
Khell
Tatts
Starling
and me.

With instantaneous nights, we could have caught the killer pair making them unable to change their kill order in time.

That leaves:

Blend, Bubba, Gnaw

as possible killers if that were the case.

I hope we lynch Bubba and he is the killer.

[Tattersail_]

Starling, on 06 December 2012 - 12:31 PM, said:

This is going nowhere

Vote EmperorMagus

Over 2 hours between them posting. Could be Blend had to confirm her kill but i'm doubtful

Blend, on 06 December 2012 - 02:29 PM, said:

*whistles impatiently*

[Khellendros]

Tattersail, you are posting like a maniac - as if you know that Bubba will come up inno for sure.

IF Bubba comes up inno, there'll be no speed lynch, but this scrambling around right now looking at things about Starling looks awfully as if you assume Bubba will be inno as an automatic thing.

[Tattersail_]

Khellendros, on 07 December 2012 - 12:46 PM, said:

Oh dear. I haven't read all of your post Tats, but I saw my name at the top.

You haven't cracked it I'm afraid

This post makes me believe in Khell somewhat. Especially with his level of participation.

[Tattersail_]

Khellendros, on 07 December 2012 - 01:04 PM, said:

Tattersail, on 07 December 2012 - 12:57 PM, said:

I am out of time, I have to get back to work. Yet someone could look further into what I suggest. I do think Blend is the symp.

For me, it's Bubba, Blend, HO (of course), Tattersail because of the pics, and Azath as possible fake finder as the main suspects for scum.

Tattersail has certainly gone all-out since his pic has come up again - interesting that he himself hasn't tried to give an interpretation of what the drawing next to his pic could mean. Ignoring it and hoping it will go away?

However, as it could easily be a scum mechanism, I am prepared to look elsewhere right now. I'm still dubious there would be two finder and finder-like abilities in the game.

Khell. Now knowing Blend is the killer expand on this post.

[Tattersail_]

Bubba, on 07 December 2012 - 09:44 PM, said:

WTF Tatts? You wait until you know I'm sleeping, then make the grand announcement that you have "cracked the game!" "Bubba is the killer!" I would defend against it if there was anything actually in your case against me. "As a veteran he should have done this bla, bla, bla" I am playing like a veteran. I am trying to play this the best I can. And no solid opinions Kell? Have you been reading the thread. What I haven't done is through votes around like some kind of trigger happy noob. I'm trying to setup and catch killers. I made a "solid" case on Azath before I went to bed, Then left it there so the rest of the players could mull it over. That is where I will be vote BTW, but un-like a dick(read Tatts here) I wanted to give Azath a chance to defend. As I have said before... let say that AGAIN... as I have said before, I don't have a read on most of the other players. You guy's sit here and go so and so is playing like he does when he is town or scum, how the fuck can I know how they played before? I'm playing the game CAREFULLY. I will not be lead along like a sheep.

vote Azath

So he mentions nothing about the pictures here. He thinking Azath was a fake finder, yet Gnaw ends up NK'd after Azath is lynched.