[Paragraph7]

I just finished Deadhouse Gates and i'm not sure about moving on to Memories of Ice... There's just so much i did not understand, even when i tried to read with care and thoughtfulness. I read Gardens of the Moon twice and understood its major plots and themes, but with Deadhouse it's somehow different. I need serious help if i am to continue with the series. Here's how I would sum it up, from the easiest to the hardest:

1) Kalam's journey was the easiest one to follow. The best part of the book was the twist with Salk Elan being Pearl. Kalam was to assassinate the Empress, but refused in the end. However the Empress was not even there in the flesh. The appearance of Minala and Shadowthrone talking of 300 hundred children was completely beyond me.
2) Fiddler and the gang: The beginning of their journey was easy enough, but at the point when they found Iskaral Pust i started to lose my grip. The best part in their storyline was when they realised that Dancer and Kellanved had ascended. Then at some point Apsalar started walking somewhere, servant, her father, followed her. It completely escaped me what happened here, but the result was that they merged with Mappo and Icarium and found the House of Azath. How and why, i don't know.
3) Mappo and Icarium. I got the "beast within" thing with Icarium, which was ok i guess. But when in House of Azath there was something about the House wanting to imprison Icarium with Mappo refusing. Then it all went crazy when Soletaken and D'ivers were attacking the House with the hounds of Shadowthrone helping the party... I really did not understand what happened here, other than that the House wanted to imprison Icarium, and Fiddler, Apsalar etc. wanted to get to Deadhouse. How and why they in the end succeeded i don't know. There was also a merchant appearing from nowhere.
4) Felisins journey was easy enough but also very dull. How she became Shaik i don't know, but at some point i got the expression that Apsalar was to be Shaik? The whole thing with Heborics hands completely escaped me.
5) Duiker and Coltaine. Again, easy enough at first, a legion of armies protecting a horde of refuges trying to escape the rebellion to Aren. But there was this one point where Captain Lull talked about a Jaghut Barrow place, which i really didn't understand.
6) The Hardest Parts: Kulp, Stormy, Truth, Baudin etc. There was this part where Kulp had rescued Felisin and Heboric from the coastline and were followed by a mad mage. Then all of a sudden they capsize and find an abbandon ship, which is inside a warren? And the Warren's flooded? And there's T'lan Imass. And an Undead Dragon? Chasing them trough the warren? Then later on when Kulp, Baudin, Heboric and Felisin have teamed up, they encounter some man, and then all of a sudden their inside something... Then it turns out the man is a D'ivers and he transforms into rats and devours Kulp. Then Baudin battles something and in the end dies. Only Heboric and Felisin survive.

This isn't a rant, or anything like that. Major parts of the book (Coltaine's death, Kalams encounter with the Empress, Felisin Heboric and Baudin escaping the mines etc.) were interesting enough, but as you can see, there's so much detail i just didn't understand. If someone could explain some of the things i've pointed out i would be really thankful, and maybe able to move on to Memories of Ice.

[Abyss]

Paragraph7, on 29 November 2012 - 04:50 PM, said:

I just finished Deadhouse Gates and i'm not sure about moving on to Memories of Ice... There's just so much i did not understand, even when i tried to read with care and thoughtfulness. I read Gardens of the Moon twice and understood its major plots and themes, but with Deadhouse it's somehow different. I need serious help if i am to continue with the series.

Stay strong.
We're here for you.

...and the series is written in a way that a LOT of things are not obvious on the first or even second read and we love the authors for it...

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Here's how I would sum it up, from the easiest to the hardest:

1) Kalam's journey was the easiest one to follow. The best part of the book was the twist with Salk Elan being Pearl. Kalam was to assassinate the Empress, but refused in the end. However the Empress was not even there in the flesh. The appearance of Minala and Shadowthrone talking of 300 hundred children was completely beyond me.

The Empress wasn't stupid enough to hang around when KALAM was after her because he had a god shot at killing her, but she was willing to try and convince him not to kill her.

Minala followed Kalam from 7C with his horse.

When Kalam and Minala left the Deadhouse, they ended up in Meanas where Apt had moved the kids she asked Kellanved to save. Since Apt only saved the kids because she followed Kalam to them, the link made sense and conveniently gives Shadowthrone several hundred potential child assassins trained by Kalam himself.

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2) Fiddler and the gang: The beginning of their journey was easy enough, but at the point when they found Iskaral Pust i started to lose my grip. The best part in their storyline was when they realised that Dancer and Kellanved had ascended. Then at some point Apsalar started walking somewhere, servant, her father, followed her. It completely escaped me what happened here, but the result was that they merged with Mappo and Icarium and found the House of Azath. How and why, i don't know.

3) Mappo and Icarium. I got the "beast within" thing with Icarium, which was ok i guess. But when in House of Azath there was something about the House wanting to imprison Icarium with Mappo refusing. Then it all went crazy when Soletaken and D'ivers were attacking the House with the hounds of Shadowthrone helping the party... I really did not understand what happened here, other than that the House wanted to imprison Icarium, and Fiddler, Apsalar etc. wanted to get to Deadhouse. How and why they in the end succeeded i don't know. There was also a merchant appearing from nowhere.

Multiple agendas there.

ST wanted to keep the shapeshifters away from the Path of Hands to avoid a massively crazy new god of shapeshifters arising, so he set up a fake Path that led to Tremolor. To finish the fake path he sent Servant. Servant was Sorry's father, saved by Shadowthrone back when the Rope possessed Sorry in GotM. two reasons for that... one, a gesture towards the girl being used as a tool and two, it gave them a hold on her down the road.

Shadowthrone had cut a deal with the Azath... the Azath deal with the mad crazy shapeshifters for ST, and Shadowthrone tricks Icarium into the Azath where the House can deal with him.

To ensure Icarium goes to Tremolor, Shadowthrone via Pust ensures that Iccy and Mappo meet Fiddler and co and bond with them. When Sorry follows Servant to Tremolor, Fid and Crokus must follow Sorry and Iccy and Mappo in turn follow them to help out.

Fid and co always wanted to end up at Tremolor anyways, so following Sorry or not, they were going there, but with Sorry supposedly in jeapordy, Iccy and Mappo had to help.

Pust created suspicion with fid and Crokus by suggesting Sorry had been sent out to take up Shaik's position, but that was a trick.

The PoH part of the plan works out great... the shapeshifters are captured by the Azath or wiped out by Fid and co.
Mappo saves Icarium however.
Fid and co get to tremolor and on to the Deadhouse in time to save Kalam.

Don't know what merchant you mean?

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4) Felisins journey was easy enough but also very dull. How she became Shaik i don't know, but at some point i got the expression that Apsalar was to be Shaik? The whole thing with Heborics hands completely escaped me.

Felisin and heboric's stories are developed in a later book. RAFO, but it wil all make sense.
Apsalar was never supposed to be Shaik but Pust made it seem that way to drive Fid and Crokus and therefore Iccy and Mappo to Tremolor.

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5) Duiker and Coltaine. Again, easy enough at first, a legion of armies protecting a horde of refuges trying to escape the rebellion to Aren. But there was this one point where Captain Lull talked about a Jaghut Barrow place, which i really didn't understand.

The Chain passed over a place where Jaghut were buried. They see dead Jaghut kids and Lull bemoans how children are dying. It's actually one of the most poignant moments in the book imnsho but it is subtle. Cpl List has visions of one of the Jaghut.

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6) The Hardest Parts: Kulp, Stormy, Truth, Baudin etc. There was this part where Kulp had rescued Felisin and Heboric from the coastline and were followed by a mad mage. Then all of a sudden they capsize and find an abbandon ship, which is inside a warren? And the Warren's flooded? And there's T'lan Imass. And an Undead Dragon? Chasing them trough the warren? Then later on when Kulp, Baudin, Heboric and Felisin have teamed up, they encounter some man, and then all of a sudden their inside something... Then it turns out the man is a D'ivers and he transforms into rats and devours Kulp. Then Baudin battles something and in the end dies. Only Heboric and Felisin survive.

You seem to have followed it...
They ended up in a warren because the mad mage was ripping holes in warrens all over the place and they were pulled thru one.
The flooded warren itself was just where they randomly ended up, on the Silana where the Imass were stopping while hunting renegade Imass.
The Imass take out the mad mage and leave.
To escape the warren, Kulp opens a gate finds the 'wake' of a powerful being, the undead dragon we later see guarding the path of hands. The Silana is pulled along behind it and when it notices the ship, it blasts flame and everyone apparently bails out.
Kulp, Heb, Baudin and Felisin end up in 7C where they run into Gryllen.
Gryllen tries to charm Felisin, likely sensing that the Whirlwind Goddess is aspecting her. When the bear soletaken interfers, Gryllen tosses that plan and tries to eat everyone, but only gets Kulp and most of Baudin.

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This isn't a rant, or anything like that. Major parts of the book (Coltaine's death, Kalams encounter with the Empress, Felisin Heboric and Baudin escaping the mines etc.) were interesting enough, but as you can see, there's so much detail i just didn't understand. If someone could explain some of the things i've pointed out i would be really thankful, and maybe able to move on to Memories of Ice.

Really, really, if you are into fantasy lit and liked DG even a bit, you owe it to yourself to read MoI. Trust me on this.

[Paragraph7]

Thanks a ton! The parts of Shadowthrone you explained made it all much clearer. Also, i think i got the House of Azath thing now.

The merchant i was referring to was "Karpolan" who appeared in both Duiker's POV and Fiddlers. My impression was that he was somehow sent by Quick Ben, from Daru, but how he ventured so fast between continents escaped me.

Yes, i am in to Fantasy, and I will take on MoI, but i really hope that after getting past the two first there finally would be a sense of "light reading" in terms of progressing trough the book. I agree that everything should not be on the surface, otherwise we would only be reading Dan Brown. But I sense that my treshold for the amount of detail and complexity is at its peak, and i hope that in MoI it doesn't overflow. Still, i look forward to meeting the more interesting characters from GotM, Paran, Quick Ben, Whiskeyjack, Rake, etc.

and so I open and see what lies inside the third book of the fallen...

[Acorn]

Paragraph7, on 29 November 2012 - 05:59 PM, said:

Thanks a ton! The parts of Shadowthrone you explained made it all much clearer. Also, i think i got the House of Azath thing now.

The merchant i was referring to was "Karpolan" who appeared in both Duiker's POV and Fiddlers. My impression was that he was somehow sent by Quick Ben, from Daru, but how he ventured so fast between continents escaped me.

Yes, i am in to Fantasy, and I will take on MoI, but i really hope that after getting past the two first there finally would be a sense of "light reading" in terms of progressing trough the book. I agree that everything should not be on the surface, otherwise we would only be reading Dan Brown. But I sense that my treshold for the amount of detail and complexity is at its peak, and i hope that in MoI it doesn't overflow. Still, i look forward to meeting the more interesting characters from GotM, Paran, Quick Ben, Whiskeyjack, Rake, etc.

and so I open and see what lies inside the third book of the fallen...

You're talking about the Trygalle Trade Guild Merchant.

They are amazingly helpful in many of the series books.. You'll come across more of them later I'm sure!

And yes, he was sent by Quick Ben to Fiddler. As well as the Daru Council to releave Coltaine's suffering if possible... Food and Water and all.

[Abyss]

Paragraph7, on 29 November 2012 - 05:59 PM, said:

...The merchant i was referring to was "Karpolan" who appeared in both Duiker's POV and Fiddlers. My impression was that he was somehow sent by Quick Ben, from Daru, but how he ventured so fast between continents escaped me.

Ah, him. He introduces himself as being from the Trygalle Trading Guild and you'll recall their carriages emerged from a warren, hence how they travel between anywhere.

RAFO for more on them.

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Yes, i am in to Fantasy, and I will take on MoI, but i really hope that after getting past the two first there finally would be a sense of "light reading" in terms of progressing trough the book.
... But I sense that my treshold for the amount of detail and complexity is at its peak, and i hope that in MoI it doesn't overflow.

Light reading this series is not. It has its lighter moments, but for sheer depth, subtlety and complexity there aren't many like it.

Consider reading something else between MBF books if you need to break it up a bit. I'd recommend Weeks' Night Angel trilo, Abercrombie's First Law series or Butcher's Codex Alera .

Otherwise, well.... brace yourself.... MoI doesn't exactly simplify things.
If anything it cranks the story up to 11. And that's just the first half.

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Still, i look forward to meeting the more interesting characters from GotM, Paran, Quick Ben, Whiskeyjack, Rake, etc.

You're in for a treat. Take a break first if you need it, but MoI... MoI is what fantasy lit strives to be.
Not that i'm biased or anything.

[Tehol the Only]

Keep reading, everything will come clear in time.... actually it may sound weird but i (and i think i'm not alone in this) understood most of dg's plots while reading later books. Part of the uniqueness of this series is in that very often a 1-line sentence will have HUGE ripercussions on your understanding of previous books. (like some kind of epiphany or, even better, like a truck hitting you and eradicating every vestige of certainty). Try re-reading Gotm after 5-6 books and it'll feel a wholly different book (seriously, your mind will be blown away).

Edit: oh, and if you feel like your mind is exploding, don't worry, take your time, don't overstress.... you'll see how something that seemed insanely overcomplex at first will come to your comprehension naturally once you're more aquainted with the series



Also, don't listen to Abyss, he's evil.

This post has been edited by Tehol the Only: 29 November 2012 - 06:35 PM

[Ruthan Good]

Abyss, on 29 November 2012 - 05:28 PM, said:

Paragraph7, on 29 November 2012 - 04:50 PM, said:

2) Fiddler and the gang: The beginning of their journey was easy enough, but at the point when they found Iskaral Pust i started to lose my grip. The best part in their storyline was when they realised that Dancer and Kellanved had ascended. Then at some point Apsalar started walking somewhere, servant, her father, followed her. It completely escaped me what happened here, but the result was that they merged with Mappo and Icarium and found the House of Azath. How and why, i don't know.

3) Mappo and Icarium. I got the "beast within" thing with Icarium, which was ok i guess. But when in House of Azath there was something about the House wanting to imprison Icarium with Mappo refusing. Then it all went crazy when Soletaken and D'ivers were attacking the House with the hounds of Shadowthrone helping the party... I really did not understand what happened here, other than that the House wanted to imprison Icarium, and Fiddler, Apsalar etc. wanted to get to Deadhouse. How and why they in the end succeeded i don't know. There was also a merchant appearing from nowhere.

Multiple agendas there.

ST wanted to keep the shapeshifters away from the Path of Hands to avoid a massively crazy new god of shapeshifters arising, so he set up a fake Path that led to Tremolor. To finish the fake path he sent Servant. Servant was Sorry's father, saved by Shadowthrone back when the Rope possessed Sorry in GotM. two reasons for that... one, a gesture towards the girl being used as a tool and two, it gave them a hold on her down the road.

Shadowthrone had cut a deal with the Azath... the Azath deal with the mad crazy shapeshifters for ST, and Shadowthrone tricks Icarium into the Azath where the House can deal with him.

To ensure Icarium goes to Tremolor, Shadowthrone via Pust ensures that Iccy and Mappo meet Fiddler and co and bond with them. When Sorry follows Servant to Tremolor, Fid and Crokus must follow Sorry and Iccy and Mappo in turn follow them to help out.

Fid and co always wanted to end up at Tremolor anyways, so following Sorry or not, they were going there, but with Sorry supposedly in jeapordy, Iccy and Mappo had to help.

Pust created suspicion with fid and Crokus by suggesting Sorry had been sent out to take up Shaik's position, but that was a trick.

The PoH part of the plan works out great... the shapeshifters are captured by the Azath or wiped out by Fid and co.
Mappo saves Icarium however.
Fid and co get to tremolor and on to the Deadhouse in time to save Kalam.

Don't know what merchant you mean?

Iskaral Pust lost the grip around the point where they found Iskaral Pust.

I have read DG about three years ago, and when I did my own reread leading up to CG I started with MoI because I pretty much remembered, if not understood, vast majority of GotM and DG. I now remembering not having a clue what ST was up to, so thanks Abyss for pointing that out.

Also the merchant was the Trygalle dude.

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This isn't a rant, or anything like that. Major parts of the book (Coltaine's death, Kalams encounter with the Empress, Felisin Heboric and Baudin escaping the mines etc.) were interesting enough, but as you can see, there's so much detail i just didn't understand. If someone could explain some of the things i've pointed out i would be really thankful, and maybe able to move on to Memories of Ice.

Really, really, if you are into fantasy lit and liked DG even a bit, you owe it to yourself to read MoI. Trust me on this.

Yes, MoI is a must.

[Abyss]

Tehol the Only, on 29 November 2012 - 06:31 PM, said:

...Also, don't listen to Abyss, he's evil.

Ruthan Good, on 29 November 2012 - 06:37 PM, said:

...so thanks Abyss ...

Mwa hah ha ha ha....

[Tehol the Only]

Abyss, on 29 November 2012 - 06:42 PM, said:

Tehol the Only, on 29 November 2012 - 06:31 PM, said:

...Also, don't listen to Abyss, he's evil.

Ruthan Good, on 29 November 2012 - 06:37 PM, said:

...so thanks Abyss ...

Mwa hah ha ha ha....

/dramatic musical background on

I shall not be fooled by your minion, you monster!!!


/dramatic musical background off

[nacht]

If you want some light(er) reading in the series, try Midnight Tides. It is pretty much standalone and there is a real funny dude in there :-)
Or Night of Knives. Different author (less devilish than SE) , more compact and throws some light on ST and the Rope.

[Ruthan Good]

Tehol the Only, on 29 November 2012 - 06:46 PM, said:

Abyss, on 29 November 2012 - 06:42 PM, said:

Tehol the Only, on 29 November 2012 - 06:31 PM, said:

...Also, don't listen to Abyss, he's evil.

Ruthan Good, on 29 November 2012 - 06:37 PM, said:

...so thanks Abyss ...

Mwa hah ha ha ha....

/dramatic musical background on

I shall not be fooled by your minion, you monster!!!


/dramatic musical background off

I actually just popped my head in for the Abyssmal Army subforum. I feel... broken.

nacht, on 29 November 2012 - 07:58 PM, said:

If you want some light(er) reading in the series, try Midnight Tides. It is pretty much standalone and there is a real funny dude in there :-)
Or Night of Knives. Different author (less devilish than SE) , more compact and throws some light on ST and the Rope.

Though the above is true, personally I would not recommend deviating from the book order the first time around. For the 2nd and 3rd read you can play about. The 4th reread you have to read it backwards. Them's the official rules.

[Tehol the Only]

Ruthan Good, on 29 November 2012 - 08:33 PM, said:

I would not recommend deviating from the book order the first time around.

I completely agree.. stick with the publication order..... maybe it'll be a bit harder at first, but it will be better in the long run.

Ruthan Good, on 29 November 2012 - 08:33 PM, said:

I feel... broken

Certain things are not to be seen by umprepared mortal eyes.

[Paragraph7]

People have seemed to misinterpret my notion of "light reading". What i meant was, that i hoped that after reading two books in the series, there would be a sense of clarity, making it easier to read through the third book. I know the series is complex but there has to be moment when Erikson stops introducing stuff right? For example, i'm 60 pages in to MoI and excluding the prologue (which still was better than DG or GotM prologues) the beginning has been much more friendly and accesible than Deadhouse. It took me like 3 reads to know wth was going with Duiker and Felisin, but the beginning chapter with Gruntle was easy and plain fun reading.

But this can be due to personal taste, as I don't see why people like Deadhouse so much at all anyway. It feels like MoI has been better already after first 60 pages.

[lastname]

There's a big DG vs MoI discussion (possibly several others too) in the MoI sub-forum which you probably don't want to be looking at right now as it'll be spoiler-ish. MoI, I think, is more accessible as its structure is fairly traditional (for SE anyway) and has a familiar feel to it. DG, not so much. Both still great books as far as I'm concerned.

Paragraph7, on 30 November 2012 - 06:55 AM, said:

I know the series is complex but there has to be moment when Erikson stops introducing stuff right?

You are going to be disappointed if that's your expectation. The series takes a bit of a turn with HoC and another sharp one with MT (I hope those aren't spoilers). I enjoyed reading about the shiny new stuff in those books but your mileage may vary. I haven't gone much farther than that I'm afraid.

[worry]

MOI and TBH are the two big "fan service" books IMO, and I don't mean that derogatorily at all. They're both huge bursts of near-continual excitement (instead of a single final climax) involving mostly previously known characters. The "new" stuff never stops coming, but these two (deliberately, I think, in terms of book order placement) feel somewhat easier on the reader.

[Tehol the Only]

Moi was the one that really hooked me... don't know why really, i just felt i had enough knowledge to understand what was happening (at least 20% of it, which is a lot or this series)...

I'm not sure if this will please or destroy you but he WILL introduce new stuff pretty much all the way to the last chapter in the last book (and in the following trilogy afaik).... good thing is: the more you go on, the easier it will be to place/understand new stuff (which is all pretty badass too).
Explanations will come as well, a lot of them! (more than enough to let you fully enjoy the books.... tho you'll hardly reach a 100%comprehension of everything malaz-related).
Needless to say, sometimes you'll have to work for them

[Abyss]

Ruthan Good, on 29 November 2012 - 08:33 PM, said:

...I actually just popped my head in for the Abyssmal Army subforum. I feel... broken.

Naturally, you mean that in a good way.

Ruthan Good, on 29 November 2012 - 08:33 PM, said:

...personally I would not recommend deviating from the book order the first time around. For the 2nd and 3rd read you can play about. The 4th reread you have to read it backwards. Them's the official rules.

Plus there's all the ICE books to work in...

There's a couple of threads on reading order.

Tehol the Only, on 29 November 2012 - 11:55 PM, said:

Certain things are not to be seen by umprepared mortal eyes.

You're just being that way because the nose bleeds haven't stopped yet.

Paragraph7, on 30 November 2012 - 06:55 AM, said:

...there has to be moment when Erikson stops introducing stuff right?

I'm afraid not, but in a good way.
He does eventually more or less settle down the 'rules' of the world and work within them, but there are new ideas/concepts/places/people in pretty much every book

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...But this can be due to personal taste, as I don't see why people like Deadhouse so much at all anyway. It feels like MoI has been better already after first 60 pages.

I've always though DG is the better human story but MoI is the better fantasy novel.

[Tehol the Only]

Abyss, on 30 November 2012 - 02:31 PM, said:

You're just being that way because the nose bleeds haven't stopped yet.

" Day 27 since the First Visit
I'ts been almost a month since i haz first attempt to wade deeper into the forumZ, and still blatant, shameless grammar errorz plague my thinkymeatz.
I haz taken home in the basement, so that darkness may hide my wretched body... also the cat's hungry stare wouldn't let me sleep.
Taking the pc with me seemed like a good idea at the time, but now i'm starting to see some faulty logic in it.
I can feel the dark grasp of the subforum calling me in my nightmares.... Other times i dream i'm a bumblebee."





I should probably be ashamed of the brazen OT-ness of this post. I'll try to make amend with some random comment on the topic.
I think both DG and Gotm are just way way better on a reread, while Moi is simply awesome the first time around.
There. Nailed it.

This post has been edited by Tehol the Only: 30 November 2012 - 04:59 PM

[Sinisdar Toste]

Paragraph7, on 30 November 2012 - 06:55 AM, said:

... there has to be moment when Erikson stops introducing stuff right?