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Abyss is in a daze after COLD DAYS Rolling comments, review thread w SPOILERS

#41 User is offline   Coco with marshmallows 

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 08:42 PM

This whole thing with Harry and Karrin though....

I'm becoming more and more convinced that the "Die Alone" curse is going to flat out prevent Harry from getting together with a woman he loves rather than actually cause him to die.

Also, i'm getting more of a suspicion that Murphy is going to die before hooking up with Harry for that matter.
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Posted 29 November 2012 - 08:52 PM

View PostCocoreturns, on 29 November 2012 - 08:42 PM, said:

This whole thing with Harry and Karrin though....

I'm becoming more and more convinced that the "Die Alone" curse is going to flat out prevent Harry from getting together with a woman he loves rather than actually cause him to die.

Also, i'm getting more of a suspicion that Murphy is going to die before hooking up with Harry for that matter.


I was really expecting for some major character on Harry's side to get the axe in this book. I mean, its kind of crazy that all these situations keep coming up and they keep surviving. We have had some minor characters die, but never a major one......and Harry doesn't count.
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Posted 30 November 2012 - 03:19 AM

Re: Mac, I got the impression that he was an Outsider. When he hinted at his nature in the bar scene when Sharkface first attacked Harry et al, he puts 3 bottles on the bar. Once we found out that Sharkface was HE WHO WALKS BEFORE, and given that we have already seen HE WHO WALKS BEHIND, I figured that Mac was the 3rd one, but that he decided to go against the other two, against his very nature as it were. That's my theory.
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#44 User is offline   Obdigore 

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 03:58 AM

View PostCocoreturns, on 29 November 2012 - 08:42 PM, said:

This whole thing with Harry and Karrin though....

I'm becoming more and more convinced that the "Die Alone" curse is going to flat out prevent Harry from getting together with a woman he loves rather than actually cause him to die.

Also, i'm getting more of a suspicion that Murphy is going to die before hooking up with Harry for that matter.


The 'Die Alone' curse was already talked about by Dresdens Hallucinatory (or not) father. Everyone dies alone, what matters is what you do and who you do it with up to that point.

I agree that the Denarians are against the Outsiders as well. Seems like the Denarians want suffering and misery and hatred, not a total absence of humankind which seems to be the Outsiders Goal. They want to prove Jehovah wrong that Humans are inherently good.

RE: Infection/Parasite thing -> Remember we only have Maeve's (crazy ass evil Maeve) word as to that it is an infection, how it works, and all that jazz. We don't know what has to happen for people to get taken over, we don't know how long it takes. Remember that Dresden has a 'parasite' that has been chewing away at his brain giving him worse and worse headaches. What if it is an 'outsider' parasite, and being the human bane of outsiders, he has fought it off longer and stronger than anyone else? And you need someone gifted in Mind-Magic like Molly to remove it... and the White Council has rules specifically against using (even practicing) magic like that...

I agree that Winter has not and will not be the sole guardians at the Gates. Wouldn't it be awesome if the fall of the Roman Empire was because Winter was extremely hard pressed and Merlin took a bunch of their legions to help defend the gates? I do like how Winter is cold and calculating because that is what they need to defend the gates, and that Summer is not because that is what they need to be to be the cushion between Winter and everyone else.

Re: Mantles -> Remember that a huge part of the book was Harry fighting the Mantle's wants/desires. Remember that Molly had been 'trained' by Lea to be ready for the mantle, although for Summer. Wouldn't that sort of mean that if Molly (the daughter of a former knight of the cross and a woman who could be Joan de Arc in another lifetime) wants to, she can fight the urges of the winter mantle. Plus we don't know how long Maeve has been batshit. It could have been since before we met her. Also, remember that Meave drove Slate batshit with drugs and torture. Perhaps all the former mantle-wearers influence the mantle, and if Dresden fights it long enough he will start to change the mantle?

Re: Cat Sith. Awesome guy. Doubt we will see him again as a friend since he was fully taken over by Nemesis. I was kind of hoping Cat Sith would turn out to be female and Mister and Cat Sith would have scary-ass babies.

This post has been edited by Obdigore: 30 November 2012 - 04:10 AM

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#45 User is offline   Obdigore 

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 03:59 AM

View PostBlend, on 30 November 2012 - 03:19 AM, said:

Re: Mac, I got the impression that he was an Outsider. When he hinted at his nature in the bar scene when Sharkface first attacked Harry et al, he puts 3 bottles on the bar. Once we found out that Sharkface was HE WHO WALKS BEFORE, and given that we have already seen HE WHO WALKS BEHIND, I figured that Mac was the 3rd one, but that he decided to go against the other two, against his very nature as it were. That's my theory.


Which would make him... HE WHO WALKS WITH?

Edit: Or if we continue the B theme... HE WHO WALKS BESIDE?
Or if we go humerous HE WHO WALKS IN BARS?

Clearly Mac has given up nothing. That is where his liquid nirvana comes from. He is the Outsider of Beer Making!

This post has been edited by Obdigore: 30 November 2012 - 04:06 AM

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#46 User is offline   polishgenius 

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 03:59 AM

Awesomeness. The series taken to new levels, and the true epic scale of it finally revealed... Fucking loved the scene at the Gate. And the finale: holy shit I did not see Molly as the Winter Queen coming.

Every book has it of course, but there was a LOT of seeding for future plots in this one; perhaps the most since the Chekov's Party in Grave Peril. Fix is going to be back in a bad way and I'm going to be sad about it.

Also: George the Paranet Paranoid will clearly be getting more airtime in the series. I'll laugh if he turns out to be Marcone in disguise. ;)

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View Postalt146, on 29 November 2012 - 01:07 PM, said:

If Nemesis can grab beings as powerful as Maeve and Cat Sith and has been around since the beginning of the series, way more people should have been turned to the dark side by now.



Cat Sith is powerful but not THAT powerful - and it's implied that it needed a sneaky dagger to get in behind Winter's defences to get hold of Maeve (and perhaps that gave it an easier handle on Cat Sith too). But yeah, we don't know quite what its limitations are yet...
As for Harry though, as much as Rashid says he's been poking the Outsiders in the eye since the start, we're given our first hint that perhaps the Walkers are using him anyway - and in that case, they don't necessarily need him infected.
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#47 User is offline   Pig Iron 

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 06:01 AM

Also doubt the Outlanders we've seen at least being the main bad guys. Harry squares off fairly well against mr Car-Wash (ok with the backing of the Wild Hunt) already, which is kind of early in the series. Him being meant to fight them has been a theme for a long time though. Nemesis is an intersting choice of name as it is the goddess of vengeance. That's a whole lot more personal and hints at other motives than just a primordial force wanting to destroy the world. As as already been pointed out, Cold Days felt shock full of set-ups for coming books so. On the other hand, in Alera the threat was mostly impersonal, with the more interesting conflicts coming from the internal fighting among the human(oid)s.
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#48 User is offline   alt146 

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 06:04 AM

View PostEddie Dean, on 29 November 2012 - 08:52 PM, said:

View PostCocoreturns, on 29 November 2012 - 08:42 PM, said:

This whole thing with Harry and Karrin though....

I'm becoming more and more convinced that the "Die Alone" curse is going to flat out prevent Harry from getting together with a woman he loves rather than actually cause him to die.

Also, i'm getting more of a suspicion that Murphy is going to die before hooking up with Harry for that matter.


I was really expecting for some major character on Harry's side to get the axe in this book. I mean, its kind of crazy that all these situations keep coming up and they keep surviving. We have had some minor characters die, but never a major one......and Harry doesn't count.


I agree it will probably happen soon. Harry's had a major boost in terms of power level and he struggled. Everyone else is about the same/slightly stronger than they were in previous books and seemed to get along fine. Surely that can't last? Anyone want to start a betting pool on who it's gonna be ;)

Also, one conspicuously missing character is Mister. What happened to the cat?

I don't know about the whole wearer changing the mantle thing. That would run almost identically to the image of Lash being 'corrupted' by Harry and I'd be disappointed if Butcher resolved such similar storylines in the same way.

I am definitely looking forward to the whole Nemesis thing being properly fleshed out. Cat Sith seemed pretty self aware about how he was now playing for the other team and pursuing their goals directly, whereas Maeve seemed more like she was under the influence of a second mantle that pushed her to act in ways that furthered the goals of the outsiders. I can see the next few books being very paranoid affairs, since Harry is going to have to be very careful with who he trusts.

I also don't think the parasite is outsider related. No-one, not even Gatekeeper or Mab can be completely sure they've detected outsider influence, whereas the parasite was picked up fairly easily. Given the likelihood of the Denarians showing up soon, I'd say it likely has something to do with them.
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#49 User is offline   Obdigore 

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 06:09 AM

View Postalt146, on 30 November 2012 - 06:04 AM, said:

View PostEddie Dean, on 29 November 2012 - 08:52 PM, said:

View PostCocoreturns, on 29 November 2012 - 08:42 PM, said:

This whole thing with Harry and Karrin though....

I'm becoming more and more convinced that the "Die Alone" curse is going to flat out prevent Harry from getting together with a woman he loves rather than actually cause him to die.

Also, i'm getting more of a suspicion that Murphy is going to die before hooking up with Harry for that matter.


I was really expecting for some major character on Harry's side to get the axe in this book. I mean, its kind of crazy that all these situations keep coming up and they keep surviving. We have had some minor characters die, but never a major one......and Harry doesn't count.


I agree it will probably happen soon. Harry's had a major boost in terms of power level and he struggled. Everyone else is about the same/slightly stronger than they were in previous books and seemed to get along fine. Surely that can't last? Anyone want to start a betting pool on who it's gonna be ;)

Also, one conspicuously missing character is Mister. What happened to the cat?

I don't know about the whole wearer changing the mantle thing. That would run almost identically to the image of Lash being 'corrupted' by Harry and I'd be disappointed if Butcher resolved such similar storylines in the same way.

I am definitely looking forward to the whole Nemesis thing being properly fleshed out. Cat Sith seemed pretty self aware about how he was now playing for the other team and pursuing their goals directly, whereas Maeve seemed more like she was under the influence of a second mantle that pushed her to act in ways that furthered the goals of the outsiders. I can see the next few books being very paranoid affairs, since Harry is going to have to be very careful with who he trusts.

I also don't think the parasite is outsider related. No-one, not even Gatekeeper or Mab can be completely sure they've detected outsider influence, whereas the parasite was picked up fairly easily. Given the likelihood of the Denarians showing up soon, I'd say it likely has something to do with them.


Doesn't Demonreach know everything about everything on his island, so he is able to see the Parasite and know where it might have come from? Especially if he perhaps contains 'Nemesis' now, and the attack was to try to free Nemesis (since outsiders can't die on the mortal plane, just be pushed out, right?) Or am I mixing DnD in here?

Also didn't both Gatekeeper and Mab say the ability to detect outsider influence only comes with experience? I know Mab said 'not 100%', but you would think you would get better at it over time, and if there are outsiders in Demonreach, I would think the Genus Loci has had plenty of time to get used to seeing their influence, no?

This post has been edited by Obdigore: 30 November 2012 - 06:10 AM

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#50 User is offline   alt146 

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 07:36 AM

View PostObdigore, on 30 November 2012 - 06:09 AM, said:

View Postalt146, on 30 November 2012 - 06:04 AM, said:

View PostEddie Dean, on 29 November 2012 - 08:52 PM, said:

View PostCocoreturns, on 29 November 2012 - 08:42 PM, said:

This whole thing with Harry and Karrin though....

I'm becoming more and more convinced that the "Die Alone" curse is going to flat out prevent Harry from getting together with a woman he loves rather than actually cause him to die.

Also, i'm getting more of a suspicion that Murphy is going to die before hooking up with Harry for that matter.


I was really expecting for some major character on Harry's side to get the axe in this book. I mean, its kind of crazy that all these situations keep coming up and they keep surviving. We have had some minor characters die, but never a major one......and Harry doesn't count.


I agree it will probably happen soon. Harry's had a major boost in terms of power level and he struggled. Everyone else is about the same/slightly stronger than they were in previous books and seemed to get along fine. Surely that can't last? Anyone want to start a betting pool on who it's gonna be :p

Also, one conspicuously missing character is Mister. What happened to the cat?

I don't know about the whole wearer changing the mantle thing. That would run almost identically to the image of Lash being 'corrupted' by Harry and I'd be disappointed if Butcher resolved such similar storylines in the same way.

I am definitely looking forward to the whole Nemesis thing being properly fleshed out. Cat Sith seemed pretty self aware about how he was now playing for the other team and pursuing their goals directly, whereas Maeve seemed more like she was under the influence of a second mantle that pushed her to act in ways that furthered the goals of the outsiders. I can see the next few books being very paranoid affairs, since Harry is going to have to be very careful with who he trusts.

I also don't think the parasite is outsider related. No-one, not even Gatekeeper or Mab can be completely sure they've detected outsider influence, whereas the parasite was picked up fairly easily. Given the likelihood of the Denarians showing up soon, I'd say it likely has something to do with them.


Doesn't Demonreach know everything about everything on his island, so he is able to see the Parasite and know where it might have come from? Especially if he perhaps contains 'Nemesis' now, and the attack was to try to free Nemesis (since outsiders can't die on the mortal plane, just be pushed out, right?) Or am I mixing DnD in here?

Also didn't both Gatekeeper and Mab say the ability to detect outsider influence only comes with experience? I know Mab said 'not 100%', but you would think you would get better at it over time, and if there are outsiders in Demonreach, I would think the Genus Loci has had plenty of time to get used to seeing their influence, no?


Sure, that is a possibility. It would probably make things a lot easier in the future if true - Harry can just take all the important people in his life onto the island on a regular basis so that Demonreach can test them. But the whole parasite thing feels different to the Nemesis infection. Damnit, why can't the next book be out already, there are so many questions that will probably be answered in the first few chapters of the next book ;) I also don't think they were trying to free Nemesis, just cause huge amounts of chaos.

Does Fae count as the mortal plane? There were tons of dead outsiders there...
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#51 User is offline   Vengeance 

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 07:53 PM

View PostObdigore, on 30 November 2012 - 06:09 AM, said:

View Postalt146, on 30 November 2012 - 06:04 AM, said:

View PostEddie Dean, on 29 November 2012 - 08:52 PM, said:

View PostCocoreturns, on 29 November 2012 - 08:42 PM, said:

This whole thing with Harry and Karrin though....

I'm becoming more and more convinced that the "Die Alone" curse is going to flat out prevent Harry from getting together with a woman he loves rather than actually cause him to die.

Also, i'm getting more of a suspicion that Murphy is going to die before hooking up with Harry for that matter.


I was really expecting for some major character on Harry's side to get the axe in this book. I mean, its kind of crazy that all these situations keep coming up and they keep surviving. We have had some minor characters die, but never a major one......and Harry doesn't count.


I agree it will probably happen soon. Harry's had a major boost in terms of power level and he struggled. Everyone else is about the same/slightly stronger than they were in previous books and seemed to get along fine. Surely that can't last? Anyone want to start a betting pool on who it's gonna be ;)

Also, one conspicuously missing character is Mister. What happened to the cat?

I don't know about the whole wearer changing the mantle thing. That would run almost identically to the image of Lash being 'corrupted' by Harry and I'd be disappointed if Butcher resolved such similar storylines in the same way.

I am definitely looking forward to the whole Nemesis thing being properly fleshed out. Cat Sith seemed pretty self aware about how he was now playing for the other team and pursuing their goals directly, whereas Maeve seemed more like she was under the influence of a second mantle that pushed her to act in ways that furthered the goals of the outsiders. I can see the next few books being very paranoid affairs, since Harry is going to have to be very careful with who he trusts.

I also don't think the parasite is outsider related. No-one, not even Gatekeeper or Mab can be completely sure they've detected outsider influence, whereas the parasite was picked up fairly easily. Given the likelihood of the Denarians showing up soon, I'd say it likely has something to do with them.


Doesn't Demonreach know everything about everything on his island, so he is able to see the Parasite and know where it might have come from? Especially if he perhaps contains 'Nemesis' now, and the attack was to try to free Nemesis (since outsiders can't die on the mortal plane, just be pushed out, right?) Or am I mixing DnD in here?

Also didn't both Gatekeeper and Mab say the ability to detect outsider influence only comes with experience? I know Mab said 'not 100%', but you would think you would get better at it over time, and if there are outsiders in Demonreach, I would think the Genus Loci has had plenty of time to get used to seeing their influence, no?


Demonreach came to an agreement not to reveal who the parasite is to Harry in return for the parasite keeping him alive after he was shot. It is in the conversation in the well. So I don't think that the parasite is an outsider. I doubt that Demonreach would have made any arrangement with one of them.
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#52 User is offline   Sindriss 

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 07:25 AM

Great book and so many great moments as people already mentioned several times.

But one of the things that really annoyed me several times, was when dresden was sort of giving direct advice to you as a reader. I think it happened 3-4 times, I remember one being talking about avoiding fights or something like that. And it really felt to oddly placed and phrased that it took me out of the universe. I really have to say I disliked that

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#53 User is offline   Illuyankas 

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 11:01 PM

I HAVE DISCOVERED A PLOTHOLE

After Harry walks through the circle at the end of the book, he loses everything that isn't part of the island. Leaving him completely naked. EXCEPT afterward when he checks his bandage on his everbleeding leg wound, remarking it hadn't been removed or changed since Butters put it on him earlier. BANDAGES MADE FROM DEMONREACH SHEEP IS THE ONLY POSSIBLE EXPLANATION
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Posted 03 December 2012 - 04:05 AM

View PostIlluyankas, on 02 December 2012 - 11:01 PM, said:

I HAVE DISCOVERED A PLOTHOLE

After Harry walks through the circle at the end of the book, he loses everything that isn't part of the island. Leaving him completely naked. EXCEPT afterward when he checks his bandage on his everbleeding leg wound, remarking it hadn't been removed or changed since Butters put it on him earlier. BANDAGES MADE FROM DEMONREACH SHEEP IS THE ONLY POSSIBLE EXPLANATION

It got through because it was soaked in Dresden's blood - which is of the island. This makes perfect sense and is not in fact a plothole. Nice attention to detail though.
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#55 User is offline   Illuyankas 

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 08:34 AM

Hmm, that works. I was wondering if that explained his mother's amulet too when I realised I don't remember Harry mentioning it after the SURPRISE moment in the birthday party.
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Posted 03 December 2012 - 08:46 AM

View PostIlluyankas, on 03 December 2012 - 08:34 AM, said:

Hmm, that works. I was wondering if that explained his mother's amulet too when I realised I don't remember Harry mentioning it after the SURPRISE moment in the birthday party.


He notes taking the Cufflinks off but not the Amulet, unless I missed it. That is quite odd... was he not wearing it or something?
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#57 User is offline   Illuyankas 

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 09:00 AM

I bet it's New Lashthe parasite being cautious about Harry using the Ways around Demonreach and also getting him to rely on himself rather than tools. I saw a dude's theory on what role Lash played for Harry and various comparable mythological figures, and one possible outcome from this is Lash using some stored soulfire from Harry to create herself a spiritual body to inhabit then bursting forth from Harry's head Athena-Zeus style, that was pretty interesting.

Another thought was that the Carpenters won't necessarily never see their daughter again, now she's the Winter Lady they can just make a circle, call her name three times and ask her to get the milk or something.
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#58 User is offline   Obdigore 

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 09:10 AM

View PostIlluyankas, on 03 December 2012 - 09:00 AM, said:

I bet it's New Lashthe parasite being cautious about Harry using the Ways around Demonreach and also getting him to rely on himself rather than tools. I saw a dude's theory on what role Lash played for Harry and various comparable mythological figures, and one possible outcome from this is Lash using some stored soulfire from Harry to create herself a spiritual body to inhabit then bursting forth from Harry's head Athena-Zeus style, that was pretty interesting.

Another thought was that the Carpenters won't necessarily never see their daughter again, now she's the Winter Lady they can just make a circle, call her name three times and ask her to get the milk or something.


I guess I'm still confused by how the mantle moved from Maeve to Molly. I thought it could only go to half fae who hadn't made their minds up or fully fae people, which is how the whole Summer Knight thing worked. The one with Reaul and the Summer Lady in the stoned girl. I think that was summer knight. Anyway... how did it know to go to Molly and not any of the winter fae there?

edit: or was that different because it was the Knights Mantle, and women can't be knights and men can't be ladies? BUTCHER IS SO SEXIST! ;)

This post has been edited by Obdigore: 03 December 2012 - 09:14 AM

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 01:15 PM

Holy Shit...

A lot of my thoughts have already been covered, so I won't repeat them.

I love that Mab isn't evil because she is Winter. She appears evil because she is cold and calculating and has planned so far ahead that we just can't conceive it.
I love the little talk she had with Harry about how he treated Molly and how it is very similar to Mab's manipulation. That give's me something to look forward to in another reread.

Kringle's reference about discarding Mantles on Halloween. Is that an out for Harry in some future book? With Molly being the next Lady Winter, is that an out or Harry in a future book?

Hopefully Sarissa will prove to be a more reliable Summer Lady, the last two got conned bad.

Titania really isn't going to like Harry after this. Can't wait to see some more fallout.

Anyone else wonder is Santa is going to give Harry some cool presents come Christmas time? Some wild fae wrought gear could be pretty cool.
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Posted 03 December 2012 - 04:01 PM

View Postamphibian, on 03 December 2012 - 04:05 AM, said:

View PostIlluyankas, on 02 December 2012 - 11:01 PM, said:

I HAVE DISCOVERED A PLOTHOLE

After Harry walks through the circle at the end of the book, he loses everything that isn't part of the island. Leaving him completely naked. EXCEPT afterward when he checks his bandage on his everbleeding leg wound, remarking it hadn't been removed or changed since Butters put it on him earlier. BANDAGES MADE FROM DEMONREACH SHEEP IS THE ONLY POSSIBLE EXPLANATION

It got through because it was soaked in Dresden's blood - which is of the island. This makes perfect sense and is not in fact a plothole. Nice attention to detail though.


I rather liked the demonreach sheep explanation, but the blood thing makes more sense.


View PostIlluyankas, on 03 December 2012 - 09:00 AM, said:

...the Carpenters won't necessarily never see their daughter again, now she's the Winter Lady they can just make a circle, call her name three times and ask her to get the milk or something.


I'm pretty sure the Lady isn't required to remain in the Nevernever full time.

View PostObdigore, on 03 December 2012 - 09:10 AM, said:

View PostIlluyankas, on 03 December 2012 - 09:00 AM, said:

I bet it's New Lashthe parasite being cautious about Harry using the Ways around Demonreach and also getting him to rely on himself rather than tools. I saw a dude's theory on what role Lash played for Harry and various comparable mythological figures, and one possible outcome from this is Lash using some stored soulfire from Harry to create herself a spiritual body to inhabit then bursting forth from Harry's head Athena-Zeus style, that was pretty interesting.
...


I guess I'm still confused by how the mantle moved from Maeve to Molly. I thought it could only go to half fae who hadn't made their minds up or fully fae people, which is how the whole Summer Knight thing worked. The one with Reaul and the Summer Lady in the stoned girl. I think that was summer knight. Anyway... how did it know to go to Molly and not any of the winter fae there?


Iirc, Molly all the other fae present and alive were male, and the narratiove says something about Molly having spent a lot of time with the fae... so proximity must count , or else Lea did something else to prep her.

I'm looking fwd to Harry having a 'conversation' with Lea about that.

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edit: or was that different because it was the Knights Mantle, and women can't be knights and men can't be ladies? BUTCHER IS SO SEXIST!


Actually yes, because the 'rules' of the fae say so. Notice we've never seen an 'Oberon' king fae type.

View Postacesn8s, on 03 December 2012 - 01:15 PM, said:

Holy Shit...

A lot of my thoughts have already been covered, so I won't repeat them.

I love that Mab isn't evil because she is Winter. She appears evil because she is cold and calculating and has planned so far ahead that we just can't conceive it.


The point is also made that she is not human and doesn't think like one at all, notwithstanding her mortal origin.

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...Anyone else wonder is Santa is going to give Harry some cool presents come Christmas time? Some wild fae wrought gear could be pretty cool.


Maybe a secretary....
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