No, from what I understand that 4am call thing is when she and her family found out the pictures were being distributed for the first time. She moved schools for the first time after that.
Also, Silencer, agree with me? I guess that hurricane is the apocalypse after all...
The Amanda Todd case an interesting take
#22
Posted 30 October 2012 - 08:16 AM
Through all this I can't but shake my head at the claim that her parents would be able to instil in her the confidence to resist the intense bullying she experienced followed the pictures and the suicide attempt.
Take good care to keep relations civil
It's decent in the first of gentlemen
To speak friendly, Even to the devil
It's decent in the first of gentlemen
To speak friendly, Even to the devil
#23
Posted 30 October 2012 - 03:24 PM
King Lear, on 30 October 2012 - 12:27 AM, said:
... assuming working mothers don't have time to educate their children about the internet is a bizarre and shitty assumption about poor people. Parents who don't know much about the internet on the other hand are not as able to educate their kids about it. And they don't have to be poor.
Agreed but their point was that someone at the low end of the economic scale is more likely to have a 'valid' reason for their lack of time. Anyrate it's tangential and not really what we're discussing here.
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'I can't talk to my parents they don't understand anything' is the standard position of pretty much everyone between the ages of 11 and 21.
That doesn't matter.
What matters is that a parent is sufficiently engaged and paying attention to their kid that they realize when something is wrong and do something about it before the situation gets worse.
That doesn't matter.
What matters is that a parent is sufficiently engaged and paying attention to their kid that they realize when something is wrong and do something about it before the situation gets worse.
I still don't think that's fair.
'Fair'. What is 'fair'? Does 'fair' excuse poor parenting?
Is 'the internet is so complicated that it's not fair that i'm expected to teach my kid about 58 year old men pretending to be fifteen year old girls' a reasonable excuse for anyone, ever?
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I only have my own experience and the experience of people I know to go by, so it's all anecdotal, but some kids are really good at hiding really awful things from their parents, and when their parents do notice something is wrong they put it down to the kid acting out because they're a teenager rather than something more sinister. ...
I understand that and you're far from unique in that respect, but the bottom line is that it's the parents' responsibility and no one else's and if that means monitoring internet use, computers in viewable family areas and hideously uncomfortable conversations then the parents job is to learn how to do it and not to shirk because 'it's too hard' or' 'it's not fair'.
Being a parent, hell, being an adult, means leaving 'fair' to GI Joe cartoons.
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Your assumption is that they didn't support and educate her, and you have no way of knowing whether that's true or not.
Actually i said at the outset that i did not know what they did and was speaking generally.
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Your reasoning seems to be that because she committed suicide, that she must not have had anyone to support her. Have you ever been part of a support system for someone who's a suicide risk? I'm not trying to be a dick, I just feel like you don't really understand how powerless these people sometimes are and how even being there is sometimes not enough. Besides, by the time that she committed suicide, Amanda Todd wasn't even in school.
I have more experience in that area than i ever wanted but we don't need to compare relative experience with suicide to have this discussion. We can agree that it's terrible and that helping such people can be impossible.
I don't think it's been established that Amanda Todd had any other psych issues and frankly enough of her life has been splayed across the net already that if she did i don't think it's anyone's business.
But on the point of a teen, any teen, doing what she did and being subjected to what she was, i stand by the point that large ugly chunks of it can be, not 'will be' but 'can be' or 'may be' or 'i hope to god this works' avoided if the parents are actively engaged.
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In answer to your question, I don't really know. I guess I want society to educate itself ... But society as a whole is not prone to asking critical questions of itself.
Entirely true, whatever the society we're talking about.
But i go one further and say that since massive social upheaval and a radical restructuring of the internet are unlikely, where are we left in modern civilized 'western' society?
I say we're left with an obligation on the part of parents, more than anyone else, to protect and educate their kids, and that obligation over-rides any sense of intimidation by technology, notion of being their child's friend, personal privacy issues etc, because the bottom line is the stereotypical basement dwelling internet predator doesn't give a damn about any of those things, nor do they care that a child on the other screen may have serious psych issues.
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... The sole 'responsibility' for sexual abuse lies at the feet of the abusers and those who allow them to continue their behaviour unchecked.
And my point goes to whose responsibility is it to give kids and teens the ability to protect themselves from this.
'Oh noes the internet is a big scary place filled with evil people!' is established fact. There are all kinds of scary places out there. But if a parent can teach their kid to look both ways before crossing the street and not to get into a car with a stranger, then not flashing their bodies in front of a webcam isn't that big a stretch and they have a DNA-level based obligation to do that.
Is it surefire protection against everything? No, and unfortunately no, but it's better than the alternatives.
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... that's why 'why was Amanda Todd still on the internet' is not really on my list of important questions to ask.
It seems to me that the media is dryhumping the issue of 'cyber-bullying' into a paste because it gets headlines but avoiding the 'what parents should be doing to avoid this' issue because they are afraid of appearing critical, as they perhaps should be, but on a general level i think an underlying issue is being shoved aside.
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...The man who tried to blackmail Amanda Todd, and made her life a misery was able to rely on our judgement as a society to shame her. And that's what needs to change. And when she stood up to him by refusing his demands, then she felt the full force of that judgement. And that's what we're telling people like her, and people like him, when we question what was wrong with her and her parents and her teachers, instead what was wrong with him, and the people who bullied her as a result of what he did.
Nope. I don't excuse those types of activities one bit.
The two points are not exclusive and arguably neither of them are getting 'proper' coverage.
Silencer, on 30 October 2012 - 03:30 AM, said:
...(Also, society as a whole is not good at critically assessing itself. Just to address that point that you made. Too much effort, not enough point. Welcome to the world of the apathetic human race, etc, etc.)
Agreed, hence my point re who does have to deal with it on a micro-level.
D, on 30 October 2012 - 03:52 AM, said:
Going back to the topic of how the media is covering this, maybe this is something the media could have actually been talking about - spend some time doing actual journalism to uncover what methods unbiasedly do and do not work for educating your kids about the internet, even if you are not a technically-savvy parent yourself.
Agreed again, altho i suspect it's being skirted to avoid the appearance of attacking the parents, which really just goes to a lack of willingness to give some thought to intelligent coverage as opposed to easily encapsulated headlines like 'Cyberbullying kills!'.
Morgoth, on 30 October 2012 - 08:16 AM, said:
Through all this I can't but shake my head at the claim that her parents would be able to instil in her the confidence to resist the intense bullying she experienced followed the pictures and the suicide attempt.
Educating children to deal with harsh reality and the consequences of their actions is not easy. I'm saying it's necessary and possible and people are doing it every day and i'd shake my head right back at you if i thougt you were saying that once the pictures went up the girl was beyond all hope and the end was inevitable. That is what happened, but it does not need to be what always happens.
Also, I'm not claiming anything about her parents. I don't know her parents and i don't know what they did or didn't do or what else was going on with her.
THIS IS YOUR REMINDER THAT THERE IS A
'VIEW NEW CONTENT' BUTTON THAT
ALLOWS YOU TO VIEW NEW CONTENT
'VIEW NEW CONTENT' BUTTON THAT
ALLOWS YOU TO VIEW NEW CONTENT
#24
Posted 15 November 2012 - 02:44 PM
Some more light shed on the case after an exclusive CBC interview with Mrs. Todd. From CBC.ca
The mother of cyberbullying victim Amanda Todd says the teen, whose story led to a worldwide outpouring of anger and grief, touched the heart of most people she met and was not obsessed with being on the internet.
In an Oct. 20 interview with the Vancouver Sun, released Tuesday, Carol Todd, of Port Coquitlam, B.C., said her 15-year-old daughter rarely failed to leave a positive impression on people.
“Amanda touched the heart of most people that she met. She did something. It was something her smile or what she said or her laughter or her humour. She had quirky humour. They always found the side of Amanda that they liked,” Todd said.
Amanda Todd, 15, of Port Coquitlam, B.C., took her own life earlier this month.(Facebook)Amanda Todd committed suicide earlier this month after posting a video on YouTube detailing her plight with bullies and others trying to manipulate her in person and online.
Her exact cause of death has not been revealed.
In the video, using a series of flash cards, Amanda wrote that her downward spiral started after an unknown man convinced her to expose herself online in front of a webcam. He blackmailed her and spread the photos around, destroying her reputation.
Carol Todd said people who ask why her daughter was on the internet so much instead of being engaged in other activities don’t know the whole story.
“She did use some internet stuff on her downtime, but in her whole entire life she figure-skated in our community, she swam competitively in the summer for a couple of years. She did gymnastics, she did soccer, she cheerleaded. For six years, she played ice hockey in our community,” her mother said.
A video Todd posted before her death explained her plight in a unique way.(YouTube)“She did as much as any child could and maybe a little more,” Todd’s mother said. “It isn't about a child that had nothing to do and sat on her computer in her room 24/7 — that wasn't it.”
Todd said her daughter was not ignored or deprived, and had lots of help available to her.
“When she was in need of support, there was counselling available to, there was doctors’ support for her, there was school support available for her. We did everything. We did everything we could.”
And well put King Lear. I still hold firm that the fingerpointing at teachers and parents in cases like this is idiotic and counterproductive. Of course education of kids about the "dangers of the internet" (to use a catchall phrase) is important and parents/teachers are failing their children if they aren't providing that kind of education. Clearly here lack of support has nothing to do with the outcome.
This case is something wholly different than simple cyberbullying. The root cause is online sexual predation and the effect is bullying (cyber and IRL). As King Lear put it, the compounding factor in the Amanda Todd case is sex-factor. She wasn't just being teased because she was unpopular or ugly or nerdy...she was being ostracised for supposedly being an internet slut. It wasn't just something she could brush off as immature and baseless bullying, the bullies here really had something to go on. It doesn't matter if it isn't true, if they harp on her enough about being a slut, she'd eventually start believing what they say. Teens have such a truncated view of the future, I understand how she couldn't see past it to a time when things might get better.
This exact sentiment is the reason for the whole "it gets better" movement aimed at helping bullied youths through trying times. The campaign features teens, adults and celebrities that explain how they endured bullying and how they overcame it in later years.
http://www.itgetsbetter.org/
I know a lot of people with teen kids, and teachers that deal with hundreds of them on a daily basis. These people aren't slackers that are letting TV raise their children. They are concerned people doing what they can to cope with a very difficult problem. There is support (eg the it gets better movement), schoolteachers and guidance counselors are trained specifically to spot bullying and its effects. Parents know their children (much like mrs. todd), know when it goes beyond simple teenage angst, and are doing what they can to support and help their kids through difficult social circumstances. I'm just not willing to accept that parents and teachers are part of the problem. They are all doing what they can to prevent extreme events like teen suicide. Quote examples to the contrary, but by and large it's true.
Until the focus shifts off that, to the actual root causes like fetishization of body parts (as king lear puts it), demonization of homosexuality (don't even get me started there), and online sexual predation, these extreme events are not going to stop.
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The mother of cyberbullying victim Amanda Todd says the teen, whose story led to a worldwide outpouring of anger and grief, touched the heart of most people she met and was not obsessed with being on the internet.
In an Oct. 20 interview with the Vancouver Sun, released Tuesday, Carol Todd, of Port Coquitlam, B.C., said her 15-year-old daughter rarely failed to leave a positive impression on people.
“Amanda touched the heart of most people that she met. She did something. It was something her smile or what she said or her laughter or her humour. She had quirky humour. They always found the side of Amanda that they liked,” Todd said.

Her exact cause of death has not been revealed.
In the video, using a series of flash cards, Amanda wrote that her downward spiral started after an unknown man convinced her to expose herself online in front of a webcam. He blackmailed her and spread the photos around, destroying her reputation.
Carol Todd said people who ask why her daughter was on the internet so much instead of being engaged in other activities don’t know the whole story.
“She did use some internet stuff on her downtime, but in her whole entire life she figure-skated in our community, she swam competitively in the summer for a couple of years. She did gymnastics, she did soccer, she cheerleaded. For six years, she played ice hockey in our community,” her mother said.

Todd said her daughter was not ignored or deprived, and had lots of help available to her.
“When she was in need of support, there was counselling available to, there was doctors’ support for her, there was school support available for her. We did everything. We did everything we could.”
And well put King Lear. I still hold firm that the fingerpointing at teachers and parents in cases like this is idiotic and counterproductive. Of course education of kids about the "dangers of the internet" (to use a catchall phrase) is important and parents/teachers are failing their children if they aren't providing that kind of education. Clearly here lack of support has nothing to do with the outcome.
This case is something wholly different than simple cyberbullying. The root cause is online sexual predation and the effect is bullying (cyber and IRL). As King Lear put it, the compounding factor in the Amanda Todd case is sex-factor. She wasn't just being teased because she was unpopular or ugly or nerdy...she was being ostracised for supposedly being an internet slut. It wasn't just something she could brush off as immature and baseless bullying, the bullies here really had something to go on. It doesn't matter if it isn't true, if they harp on her enough about being a slut, she'd eventually start believing what they say. Teens have such a truncated view of the future, I understand how she couldn't see past it to a time when things might get better.
This exact sentiment is the reason for the whole "it gets better" movement aimed at helping bullied youths through trying times. The campaign features teens, adults and celebrities that explain how they endured bullying and how they overcame it in later years.
http://www.itgetsbetter.org/
I know a lot of people with teen kids, and teachers that deal with hundreds of them on a daily basis. These people aren't slackers that are letting TV raise their children. They are concerned people doing what they can to cope with a very difficult problem. There is support (eg the it gets better movement), schoolteachers and guidance counselors are trained specifically to spot bullying and its effects. Parents know their children (much like mrs. todd), know when it goes beyond simple teenage angst, and are doing what they can to support and help their kids through difficult social circumstances. I'm just not willing to accept that parents and teachers are part of the problem. They are all doing what they can to prevent extreme events like teen suicide. Quote examples to the contrary, but by and large it's true.
Until the focus shifts off that, to the actual root causes like fetishization of body parts (as king lear puts it), demonization of homosexuality (don't even get me started there), and online sexual predation, these extreme events are not going to stop.
........oOOOOOo
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......//| | |oO
.....|| | | | O....BEERS!
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