Malazan Empire: Shotgun on the Mantle (SPOILERS up to CHANGES) - Malazan Empire

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Shotgun on the Mantle (SPOILERS up to CHANGES) SPOILERS up to CHANGES

#1 User is offline   acesn8s 

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 06:19 PM

[[MODGOOD EDIT TO NOTE SPOILERS UP TO CHANGES
because the op and thread title don't

SPOILERS

SPOILERS

SPOILERS ]]

So, one of those writing class cliches is that if you describe a shotgun on the mantle, by the end of the story someone had better use it.

McCoy's journal collection . . .

Spoiler

This post has been edited by acesn8s: 22 October 2012 - 03:14 PM

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 06:23 PM

View Postacesn8s, on 19 October 2012 - 06:19 PM, said:

So, one of those writing class cliches is that if you describe a shotgun on the mantle, by the end of the story someone had better use it.

McCoy's journal collection . . .

Spoiler



What book is it revealed that McCoy has an apprenticeship line dating back to OM? I must have missed that little tidbit.
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Posted 19 October 2012 - 07:12 PM

prelim point: @aces neither your thread title nor the OP warn people that you're going to spoil things up to CHANGES.
OP editted accordingly. Spoiler-blocking isn't all that helpful if the reader doesn't have at least some idea what you're protecting them from.


I took the journals as a hint that the DRESDEN FILES that we're reading are Harry's journals carrying on from McCoy's at a future date.

What do you mean by "apprenticeship line"?
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Posted 19 October 2012 - 07:29 PM

View PostAbyss, on 19 October 2012 - 07:12 PM, said:

I took the journals as a hint that the DRESDEN FILES that we're reading are Harry's journals carrying on from McCoy's at a future date.

What do you mean by "apprenticeship line"?

I too took that as the reasoning behind Butcher's first person narrative with a couple step-outs into other characters approach to the books.

He means that the Black Staff (right now it's McCoy) gets passed down from teacher to student, who becomes the new teacher, picks up a new student and so on. The line goes back up to the original Merlin - which is probably only a few generations at this point, considering that the wizards live something like three or four hundred years.
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Posted 19 October 2012 - 08:07 PM

So the original Black Staff was an apprentice to the original Merlin?
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Posted 19 October 2012 - 08:36 PM

View PostAbyss, on 19 October 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

So the original Black Staff was an apprentice to the original Merlin?

The original Black Staff was the original Merlin. His apprentice (we don't know who yet) was the next.

I really think Cowl or somebody on the Black Council is connected to the Black Staffs. And Gatekeeper, who knows what's up with Gatekeeper.
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Posted 19 October 2012 - 08:45 PM

View Postamphibian, on 19 October 2012 - 08:36 PM, said:

...The original Black Staff was the original Merlin. ...


I'm drawing a complete blank. When was that revealed?
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Posted 19 October 2012 - 10:27 PM

View PostAbyss, on 19 October 2012 - 08:45 PM, said:

I'm drawing a complete blank. When was that revealed?

It's implied. There's occasional references to how the original Merlin got a ton of badass stuff done and even the current Merlin has combat magic leanings, with his potion/wand holsters and what not.
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Posted 19 October 2012 - 11:42 PM

View Postamphibian, on 19 October 2012 - 08:36 PM, said:

View PostAbyss, on 19 October 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

So the original Black Staff was an apprentice to the original Merlin?

The original Black Staff was the original Merlin. His apprentice (we don't know who yet) was the next.

I really think Cowl or somebody on the Black Council is connected to the Black Staffs. And Gatekeeper, who knows what's up with Gatekeeper.


I reckon the Gatekeepers job is connected with the Outsiders in some way or demons with the socking Demonreach one, that was an interesting tidbit! What connection there!

We've seen various factions but not a true Demon one with a Demon King, wonder when we will and how the name Demonreach was appropriate and if relevant!

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 04:27 PM

I don't think it was implied that it was always an apprentice who took on the journals -- that's just the case with Harry and McCoy. I never that that that implied the same relationship every time the responsibility got passed on, though obviously it would be easier for the passer-on to know that the recipient would be up to the job. But they could just as easily pass it on to a respected younger colleague.
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Posted 22 October 2012 - 12:25 PM

View PostAbyss, on 19 October 2012 - 07:12 PM, said:

prelim point: @aces neither your thread title nor the OP warn people that you're going to spoil things up to CHANGES.
OP editted accordingly. Spoiler-blocking isn't all that helpful if the reader doesn't have at least some idea what you're protecting them from.


I took the journals as a hint that the DRESDEN FILES that we're reading are Harry's journals carrying on from McCoy's at a future date.

What do you mean by "apprenticeship line"?


:p

I apologize if I spoiled anything for anyone.

Abyss, I wasn't sure what else to call it. McCoy mentioned to Harry that the journals on the shelf before his (McCoy's) were his Masters and-so-on. So I took it to mean that the Master's passed on their journals to their Apprentices at some point.

Maybe "pedigree" would be an accurate term?
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Posted 22 October 2012 - 02:20 PM

View Postamphibian, on 19 October 2012 - 07:29 PM, said:

View PostAbyss, on 19 October 2012 - 07:12 PM, said:

...
What do you mean by "apprenticeship line"?

...
He means that the Black Staff (right now it's McCoy) gets passed down from teacher to student, who becomes the new teacher, picks up a new student and so on. The line goes back up to the original Merlin - which is probably only a few generations at this point, considering that the wizards live something like three or four hundred years.


View Postamphibian, on 19 October 2012 - 08:36 PM, said:

View PostAbyss, on 19 October 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

So the original Black Staff was an apprentice to the original Merlin?

The original Black Staff was the original Merlin. His apprentice (we don't know who yet) was the next.
...


View Postamphibian, on 19 October 2012 - 10:27 PM, said:

View PostAbyss, on 19 October 2012 - 08:45 PM, said:

I'm drawing a complete blank. When was that revealed?

It's implied. There's occasional references to how the original Merlin got a ton of badass stuff done and even the current Merlin has combat magic leanings, with his potion/wand holsters and what not.


So when you say 'it's implied' i take it you don't actually have anything concrete to back this up.
My take is that the White Council decided that there was a need for a Blackstaff who could operate outside their rules.
We don't actually know that the Original Merlin was the one who started the White Council, so while there may be a link, it's not certain.

View PostUse Of Weapons, on 20 October 2012 - 04:27 PM, said:

I don't think it was implied that it was always an apprentice who took on the journals -- that's just the case with Harry and McCoy. I never that that that implied the same relationship every time the responsibility got passed on, though obviously it would be easier for the passer-on to know that the recipient would be up to the job. But they could just as easily pass it on to a respected younger colleague.


I figured there would be a logical link but not necessarily master to apprentice, tho that's probably the most common.

View Postacesn8s, on 22 October 2012 - 12:25 PM, said:

View PostAbyss, on 19 October 2012 - 07:12 PM, said:

...What do you mean by "apprenticeship line"?


...
Abyss, I wasn't sure what else to call it. McCoy mentioned to Harry that the journals on the shelf before his (McCoy's) were his Masters and-so-on. So I took it to mean that the Master's passed on their journals to their Apprentices at some point.

Maybe "pedigree" would be an accurate term?



I wasn't sure whether you were ref'ing something from the books, but i suppose 'line of apprentice' would amount to the same thing.
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Posted 22 October 2012 - 03:13 PM

I, I don't remember reading anything that implied the Blackstaff was passed down from master to apprentice. From what I read, the Senior Council decided who their Blackstaff was. The one person on the White Council allowed to break the laws of magic... I think it would be a bit too subjective if it was the person holding the Blackstaff who decided who was the next to hold it.

As for the journals, McCoy basically says straight out to Dresden that the journals on his shelf date back to the Original Merlin, and that they were passed down from master to apprentice, and that one day he would be passing the journals on to Dresden. I remember Dresden going a little wide-eyed about all the information that would be found in those books. I don't think it gets much clearer then that!
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Posted 22 October 2012 - 03:29 PM

View PostBlend, on 22 October 2012 - 03:13 PM, said:

As for the journals, McCoy basically says straight out to Dresden that the journals on his shelf date back to the Original Merlin, and that they were passed down from master to apprentice, and that one day he would be passing the journals on to Dresden. I remember Dresden going a little wide-eyed about all the information that would be found in those books. I don't think it gets much clearer then that!


That was the crux of my post. Any chance that harry is related to the original Merlin? Butcher never comes out and tell us if McCoy trained his daughter (I assume yes), and that he was originally "hands off Harry" because of how much trouble his daughter was in. Butcher did establish the magical "gene" angle in White Night with the White Court killing off the low level magical practitioners in hopes reducing the number of wizards over time.
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Posted 22 October 2012 - 04:19 PM

Ah, NOW it makes more sense.
But the line runs via the journals, not the Blackstaff.
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Posted 22 October 2012 - 04:41 PM

View Postacesn8s, on 22 October 2012 - 03:29 PM, said:

That was the crux of my post. Any chance that harry is related to the original Merlin? Butcher never comes out and tell us if McCoy trained his daughter (I assume yes), and that he was originally "hands off Harry" because of how much trouble his daughter was in. Butcher did establish the magical "gene" angle in White Night with the White Court killing off the low level magical practitioners in hopes reducing the number of wizards over time.


I think there's a very strong possibility that he is. But I don't think there has been anything overtly hinting at that, just the odd mention about the original Merlin, and how it's important that Harry look into the past of the sword, and how Amoracchius is actually Excalibur, etc. etc. etc.

That being said, I don't think we should assume that apprenticeship means relation. In McCoy/Dresden's case, yes, they're related, but there hasn't been any mention of who trained Margaret LeFay, so we can't just assume it's McCoy. The only other apprentice/master duos we have met, as far as I recall, are Molly/Dresden and Morgan/Luccio, and there's no relation between either of those pairs.
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Posted 22 October 2012 - 04:53 PM

View PostBlend, on 22 October 2012 - 04:41 PM, said:

... The only other apprentice/master duos we have met, as far as I recall, are Molly/Dresden and Morgan/Luccio, and there's no relation between either of those pairs.


Have we ever been told who trained Ramirez, other than Luccio in the warden context?
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Posted 22 October 2012 - 05:02 PM

View PostAbyss, on 22 October 2012 - 04:53 PM, said:

View PostBlend, on 22 October 2012 - 04:41 PM, said:

... The only other apprentice/master duos we have met, as far as I recall, are Molly/Dresden and Morgan/Luccio, and there's no relation between either of those pairs.


Have we ever been told who trained Ramirez, other than Luccio in the warden context?


Don't think so.

There's also a niggling in my brain about some mention of someone who was trained by the current Merlin, Arthur Langtry, but I can't recall if that actually happened or if I'm just dreaming it.
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Posted 22 October 2012 - 05:58 PM

View PostBlend, on 22 October 2012 - 04:41 PM, said:

The only other apprentice/master duos we have met, as far as I recall, are Molly/Dresden and Morgan/Luccio, and there's no relation between either of those pairs.

We've seen Kemmler's ex-apprentices going around. No relations. Ortega/Bianca is a vampire magician father/vampire magician daughter relationship. No genetic relationship (I think), but there is blood between them.
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Posted 22 October 2012 - 07:38 PM

View PostBlend, on 22 October 2012 - 05:02 PM, said:

View PostAbyss, on 22 October 2012 - 04:53 PM, said:

View PostBlend, on 22 October 2012 - 04:41 PM, said:

... The only other apprentice/master duos we have met, as far as I recall, are Molly/Dresden and Morgan/Luccio, and there's no relation between either of those pairs.


Have we ever been told who trained Ramirez, other than Luccio in the warden context?


Don't think so.

There's also a niggling in my brain about some mention of someone who was trained by the current Merlin, Arthur Langtry, but I can't recall if that actually happened or if I'm just dreaming it.


You would think he had one... Though cannot recall and I've just finished a reread :p if we don't know I call dibs on Cowl haha

Though I think the tomes leading back to the original Merlin are important, it's not like McCoy has the books because he bought them at a bookshop, there would have to be some connection you would think, aye student, but you cannot imagine it been just any old student allowed in on the game... though I think the Blackstaff could be a red herring, it's a roll he holds on the council like the Gatekeeper and the roll Harry has sort of stumbled into. Though aye, he could be the Blackstaff as his line leads back to Merlin.

Thinking on the Blackstaff and how when wielded with power it drew dark veins up McCoys arms, because of dark power was used or draw of the weapon? Wonder what that does...

Oh loads of questions!

This post has been edited by champ: 22 October 2012 - 07:43 PM

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