[Sick@Simpliciter]

I can finally post doubts and frustrations on a Malazan book fresh after having finished it...

Of course at this point I still have some confusion going through my head especially on what is going to be the role of many characters going into tCG...

Here are some:


After 10 books and 99% of the 11th book we as readers (or maybe just me as a moron) were led to believe that T'lan Imass were essentially a "good" compassionate race that lost itself because of a huge fatal collective mistake... but I was under the impression that this race in the end will stand side by side with men to fight Chaos... so all this emphasis on the Slayers of Children is rather confusing...
Aside from that, I am totally lost in trying to figure out where all the clans are, what happened with this Second Ritual, how many Imass (as opposed to T'lan Imass) are still around, which clans are under the summon of Onos Toolan and which under Silverfox and in general what they are really up to... if someone could help me figuring some of this stuff out without RAFOing is rather welcomed!

The second most confusing race are the jaghuts... it is clear that they are not extinct even if some of them are undead... it is also clear after DoD that they weren't always (or maybe they have never been) a race of loners who occasionally turned rough and became Tyrants... this people lived in Crystal cities with KCM and collectively waged war against Death itself... the greatest problem I have with Jaghuts is their origins... they are rather old if Icarium is that old! probably older than Imass and of the same age of KCM... they also seem to have several ascendants and therefore they must have a religion of sort... in the end are they a race of Order or Chaos? (I acknowledge that this question is rather simplistic)

Forkrul Assail: I suspect we know almost nothing about those because they are a big part of a reveal in tCG? Apart from knowing that they adjudicate and kil everyone in the name of justice, what are they? from whom they descend? how their society work? why where they deemed extinct? have they been hiding?

Finally, a critique (my first) on the entire series: I understand that the future is not always how we picture it and that overall the series is predicated on pessimism... but why amost all the efforts of our beloved characters always end up in -often incidental - tragedy? I mean, I am OK with the concept of convergence but getting slaughtered by the freshly-returned Na'rhuk after having travelled so far and almost to the point of reuniting with reinforcements is unbelievably unfortunate...


Please tell me Quick Ben is OK and that his shaved knuckle in the hole (Tay) did something to save him from the Na'rhuk magic!

This post has been edited by Sick@Simpliciter: 17 October 2012 - 12:11 AM

[Abyss]

Just so we're clear, i'm not going to spoil anything from TCG or later...

Sick@Simpliciter, on 17 October 2012 - 12:06 AM, said:

...at this point I still have some confusion going through my head especially on what is going to be the role of many characters going into tCG...

That's what rereads are for.

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After 10 books and 99% of the 11th book we as readers (or maybe just me as a moron) were led to believe that T'lan Imass were essentially a "good" compassionate race that lost itself because of a huge fatal collective mistake... but I was under the impression that this race in the end will stand side by side with men to fight Chaos... so all this emphasis on the Slayers of Children is rather confusing...

SE subverted your assumption and went in another direction. it's why we love him.

Also, if you go back through the earlier books, there are many many hints that the Imass, T'Lan or otherwise, are far from a cuddly race of friendly cavemen living in harmony with everything.

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Aside from that, I am totally lost in trying to figure out where all the clans are, what happened with this Second Ritual, how many Imass (as opposed to T'lan Imass) are still around, which clans are under the summon of Onos Toolan and which under Silverfox and in general what they are really up to... if someone could help me figuring some of this stuff out without RAFOing is rather welcomed!

Some clans went with Silverfox to Assail. Some clans were already there.
One clan was effectively dead and dreaming in the Refugium where Onrack and co found them in RG.
Some Imass missed the Tlan ritual and continued in the world until they attempted a second ritual. It failed and they sat around until Tool woke them up and pulled them along in his fury.

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...the greatest problem I have with Jaghuts is their origins... ...... they also seem to have several ascendants and therefore they must have a religion of sort... in the end are they a race of Order or Chaos? (I acknowledge that this question is rather simplistic)

They are more powerful than most gods, so why would they have a religion?
What they do have is a dissatisfaction with their lack of an afterlife, which led to that War on Death.

There does not seem to be any races of 'Order' or 'Chaos' in any aspected sense, but the Eleint are closest to Chaos. The Jaghut warren aparently borders on that of Death, which in tunr borders on Chaos, but that doesn't mean the race itself is aspected one way or the other.

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Forkrul Assail: ...

RAFO RAFO and MORE RAFO.

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... I am OK with the concept of convergence but getting slaughtered by the freshly-returned Na'rhuk after having travelled so far and almost to the point of reuniting with reinforcements is unbelievably unfortunate...
Please tell me Quick Ben is OK and that his shaved knuckle in the hole (Tay) did something to save him from the Na'rhuk magic!

RAFO. You wouldn't thank anyone for spoiling any of that.

[worry]

1) Pessimism is an irrelevance...neither optimism nor pessimism are strong themes in this series. Rather (among the non-metafictional themes), compassion, empathy, and the highs and lows of war are probably the most prominent.

2) T'lan Imass -- they're not simple. They weren't simple before the ritual, and they're not simple afterward despite what they've done to themselves. If you recall Itkovian's release in MOI, they're very much individuals even through the millennia and filter of being undead. There's plenty of RAFO to go too, however much you might not like to hear it.

3) Jaghut -- they're indeed pretty old as a race and even as individuals, that much is true. And they aren't extinct. Though recall Icarium is a Jhag, not a full blood Jaghut. All that said, recall that on Lether there is still a living KCCM matron -- and that KCCM were there to war against the invading Tiste peoples, and were even there to fight humans like the Awl. So on this "lost" continent, it doesn't necessarily mean anyone has to be super old to have had contact with them. The Tellan ritual was 300,000 years ago or so, but the Tiste invasion was much more recent then that, and the First Empire of humans got there around 70,000 years ago (if the Seventh Closure = 70,000 years, which is fairly likely, though it's only Ceda's musings).

4) Forkrul Assail -- they are a species created by Kilmandaros. These are her (or Sechul Lath's) words directly from Reaper's Gale I think, not just mythology like a lot of other things. So there you have at least one Elder God creating a sentient species. We also know that they were dwellers of this planet in the distant past, but were in some part eradicated, in some part buried under rocks and rituals, and in other cases they've been adjudicating OTHER warrens/worlds. You get a hint of this from the FA that the Shake see on their journey and other rare asides.

Anyway, there's plenty of hardship in the finale, but I wouldn't call any of the series pessimistic. I hope you enjoy it when you get there!

This post has been edited by worrywort: 17 October 2012 - 12:51 AM

[Ulrik]

Firstly - sorry for typos, Im writimg on iPad...
Imass are nor good, compassionate... Individuals are same as people - good, bad, envious, noble, jerk, loyal... Fory slaying children - they are lead by furious First Sowrd...not lead, rather chained. And Onos is very very angry (+manipulated). For the rest, sorr, I would say RAFO, rather than spoiling even something small:)
Jaghut....ooooh...RAFO? No, partially I will try to write something. There is not division of Order/ Chaos. Every race has its own agenda and I would say rather philosophy than religion. And Jaghut...its a lot of RAFO, even in FoD. Lets just say, that Jaghut are definition of individualism I mentioned in case of Imass.
FA - TCG will give you some answers.
About bad luck...well, there is one bugger playing with chance, isnt? one who doesnt like new order, new warrens, new soldiers arriving to continent and what they symbolise.
Ad Tay - you didnt read RotCG?
Sorry for so many RAFO answers, but realize, that DoD is rather first half of one book. I can ruin you discovering so many new things in final book, but...I will leave this blasphemy to someone other

[Sick@Simpliciter]

Thank you all for your compassionate replies

Lots of RAFOs as I expected but that' means I wasn't supposed to understand some of the things for which I'm still confused...

On the Imass I have somehow clearer ideas now...
FA still a mistery but - as I suspected - it was in the intentions of SE
KCCM: actually I wasn't considering at all that they went to Lether to fight the Tistes... that raises the other question of where they originally come from... I'm pretty sure that it was mentioned that they have a warren of their own (similar to Tellan for the Imass)... by the way other huge single perplexity about the cosmology of the series: what is the difference between the Tellan and KCCM warren and the Kurald warrens of the Tistes... I mean why Tistes are considered invaders in Wu why the other races are considered founding races if they also have a warren of origin? Is this supposed to be part of a greater mistery?

On the pessimism thing, maybe I used the wrong expressions... I don't mean that the series is pessimistic in itself but that it instills pessimism in the reader (or at least in me)... why? because all characters actions seem to be rather useless in the end... worse many characters hurt other characters unwillingly or incidentally and basically the message here is one of an intrinsic emotional uncommunicabilty between individuals... of course characters often compassionate but most of the time they misunderstand each other and when they compassionate is because they are both suffering!
I can't name a character who had a positive closure! Maybe the only charachter that went out with some purpose and with some flicker ofa new life still ahead of her is Apsalar... and that is saying a lot since she's one of the most exploited and manipulated character of the series!

[High Fist]

Sick@Simpliciter, on 17 October 2012 - 01:23 PM, said:

KCCM: actually I wasn't considering at all that they went to Lether to fight the Tistes... that raises the other question of where they originally come from... I'm pretty sure that it was mentioned that they have a warren of their own (similar to Tellan for the Imass)... by the way other huge single perplexity about the cosmology of the series: what is the difference between the Tellan and KCCM warren and the Kurald warrens of the Tistes... I mean why Tistes are considered invaders in Wu why the other races are considered founding races if they also have a warren of origin? Is this supposed to be part of a greater mistery?

The Tiste are considered invading races because they came from their Warrens into the world. The founding races are from the world and merely access their racial warrens for magic. At least, this is what can be concluded from present information.

This post has been edited by Abyss: 17 October 2012 - 04:19 PM
Reason for edit: later book ref removed.

[Abyss]

Sick@Simpliciter, on 17 October 2012 - 01:23 PM, said:

Thank you all for your compassionate replies

They were compassionate???? Crud, we're losing our edge....

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KCCM: actually I wasn't considering at all that they went to Lether to fight the Tistes... that raises the other question of where they originally come from... I'm pretty sure that it was mentioned that they have a warren of their own (similar to Tellan for the Imass)... by the way other huge single perplexity about the cosmology of the series: what is the difference between the Tellan and KCCM warren and the Kurald warrens of the Tistes... I mean why Tistes are considered invaders in Wu why the other races are considered founding races if they also have a warren of origin? Is this supposed to be part of a greater mistery?

I didn't think they went to Leth to fight the Tiste, rather i figured the KC were already there or fled there to get away from the Tiste. Another possibility is that some KC travelled to Leth to get away from KN or other KC.
In RG the Redmask/Awl storyline suggests the Awl originally met the KC when they were migrating to Leth as if fleeing from something, and we know there's a history of conflict between Matrons as well as between KC and KN.

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On the pessimism thing, maybe I used the wrong expressions... I don't mean that the series is pessimistic in itself but that it instills pessimism in the reader (or at least in me)... why? because all characters actions seem to be rather useless in the end...

I suspect that if you take a closer look, not one major character's actions are ever useless in the sense of having no effect on other characters or events.
Sure there are a pile of supporting characters who only appear long enough to die, but for the majority, their actions and death tend to create ripples.

High Fist, on 17 October 2012 - 02:49 PM, said:

The Tiste are considered invading races because they came from their Warrens into the world. The founding races are from the world and merely access their racial warrens for magic. At least, this is what can be concluded from present information.

Actually, as of DoD we don't know whether Founding Races (Imass, Jaghut, FA, KC) originated from their warrens or just access them. The term 'Founding Races' is ref'd in GotM to mean the four races who had civilizations before humans, as opposed to the Tiste who are generally considered invaders.

Also as of DoD we know there are at least a couple of races who didn't make the 'Founding' list but were around at the same time and did have either civilization or at least a form of it, ie Eres, KN, Thel Akai.

Keep in mind the whole concept of 'Founding Races' is said to be drawn from a human translation of Gothos' Folly, so its reliability is questionable.

[blackzoid]

worrywort, on 17 October 2012 - 12:48 AM, said:

All that said, recall that on Lether there is still a living KCCM matron -- and that KCCM were there to war against the invading Tiste peoples, and were even there to fight humans like the Awl. So on this "lost" continent, it doesn't necessarily mean anyone has to be super old to have had contact with them. The Tellan ritual was 300,000 years ago or so, but the Tiste invasion was much more recent then that, and the First Empire of humans got there around 70,000 years ago (if the Seventh Closure = 70,000 years, which is fairly likely, though it's only Ceda's musings).

Hey Wort, interesting thought that the timeline on the lost continent as regards the KCCM can be screwy and can be used as a possible explanation as to why certain cultures like the Awl can remember the KCCM thousands of years after others, but we do know that in the Tiste Invasion mentioned in the MT prologue that the Imass have not become undead yet and that the KCCM in Morn are only now rebelling. And from the MOI prologue, that time period for the Morn destruction is as least 300,000 years old. More than likely much older. So the Tiste Invasion to the Letheras continent cannot be more recent than 300,000 years ago.

[worry]

Ah, that's information I have forgotten. Still, that KCCM/Tiste war took place where the ice field is now, the NW continent. So we can surmise that either the KCCM are being pushed east, or that they were continent spanning already -- in other words the KCCM on the Awl'dan may or may not be the survivors of the Tiste wars, but they did exist millennia later. But the existence of Icarias -- which must be ancient given how long we know just Mappo alone has spent with Icarium, let alone other minders -- hints that the KCCM were once upon a time a pretty expansive people (so to speak). I dunno, it's a mystery, but even if I got the pacing wrong I think the order of events makes sense?

After whatever made everyone abandon the city, they could have moved west, encountered the various oppositions they did, and dwindled from there, being pushed back East eventually to return to what's become the Wasteland and the last few dragon keeps.

This post has been edited by worrywort: 17 October 2012 - 08:32 PM

[Sinisdar Toste]

we can piece together from various epigraphs and janaths thoughts that there was a KC city that letheras is built over, somewhere the books talk about it being abandoned after attempts to install insulation. presumably they fled from gothos ritual, which was taking place to the north, where the matrons had done battle with the tiste. of course, there would be hordes of drones, farmers, mechanics, engineer, and every other variety of k'chain that would be needed still living in the cities. the matrons went north with their armies. the k'chain fought by the awl's ancestors were probably the 'civilians', with maybe a few j'an sentinels, fleeing the climate change affecting the region an indeterminate amount of time later.

[hansebee]

Sinisdar Toste, on 17 October 2012 - 11:38 PM, said:

we can piece together from various epigraphs and janaths thoughts that there was a KC city that letheras is built over, somewhere the books talk about it being abandoned after attempts to install insulation. presumably they fled from gothos ritual, which was taking place to the north, where the matrons had done battle with the tiste.

ah! I think that was somewhere in Reaper's Gale, the archaeology of the layers beneath Letheras had something to do with Janath Anar, the poor tortured scholar and political prisoner.
I remember the description quite vividly, it shows where SE comes from. The man *loves* his layers, layers of civilizations, layers of history, layers of dust...
I also loved the description in TtH of the ancient buried building that Harllo Younger discovers beneath the mine, it shows how many years (and in fact, eons) lie between those eras. Another is the petrified city in the mesa in DG. ...*sigh*

man, I consider myself lucky that I read DoD just days before receiving TCG in the mail. That was one helluvan ending SE made us go through. Loud like Michael Bay, hard-hitting like Chuck Norris, ... Reminds me of reaching the final credits of another season of Game of Thrones again, you know, another year, going "NOOOOO!" with arms over my head... scaring the cat... :-)