[Otataral Toblakai]

SPOILER ALERT.
I was attracted to this Gene Wolfe series due to a number of reasons. The whole sci-fi meets fantasy angle. The torturer protagonist (I assumed a Glokta like individual). The plot (the whole new sun thing).

Unfortunately, it was less epic that I expected and rather drab/boring, told in a continous monologue with spoilers (for example, it is revealed at the start that he'll end up as the Autarch) and a plot that had enormous potential but that potential was hardly put to use. The protagonist was less of a torturer than an arrogant son of nobility. But what galled me most about him was how he treated the women around him, those he had relationships with. I couldn't help but get wrong vibes off his relationship with Dorcas. He often hit the women he wandered around with and that bugged me a lot. I would have had no issues with torture, cruelty or any other barbaric act on the men of Urth (particularly remembering Glokta and how he looked after that other lady character (forgot her name).

The series had good pieces, nevertheless, particularly the first book and the Thecla arc.

Forgive my rant, but that was what I felt after reading the series. Has anybody else read it?

[Dr Trouble]

I thought it was an ace series personally. Severian is both interesting and horribe. The way he tells his story, sometimes skirting away from things, other times outright lying, was a first for me as a reader.

I did prefer Soldier of the Mist honesty.

I'll try to give more impressions on the series when I have time... Might have to flick through it again too for a reminder ...

[POOPOO MCBUMFACE]

I only got halfway through (finished the first "two" books) and found it really uninteresting. I feel like I should finish it, but I just wasn't being given anything to draw me in. I'm glad it wasn't epic and heroic and whatever, or I probably would have chucked it halfway through, it wasn't really a difficult read, I know there was a lot going on under the surface, but I just felt like I didn't have any real reason to care about any of it. It was just weirdness after weirdness after Catholic imagery after HA HA LOOK THERE IS A PHOTO OF A MAN ON THE MOON BUT THE CHARACTERS HAVE FORGOTTEN THEIR HISTORY AND DON'T KNOW THAT'S WHAT IT IS!!! after weird tree battle after exploding girlfriend. Actually, if I'd read that description myself, I probably would have wanted to read it. It just... managed to make me not care.

I wasn't totally impressed by the prose, either, but I can tell he is a skilled author. Might give Soldier in the Mist a read before I write him off.

This post has been edited by POOPOO MCBUMFACE: 23 September 2012 - 10:56 AM

[Puck]

 Otataral Toblakai, on 23 September 2012 - 06:59 AM, said:

Unfortunately, it was less epic that I expected and rather drab/boring, told in a continous monologue with spoilers (for example, it is revealed at the start that he'll end up as the Autarch) and a plot that had enormous potential but that potential was hardly put to use. The protagonist was less of a torturer than an arrogant son of nobility. But what galled me most about him was how he treated the women around him, those he had relationships with. I couldn't help but get wrong vibes off his relationship with Dorcas. He often hit the women he wandered around with and that bugged me a lot. I would have had no issues with torture, cruelty or any other barbaric act on the men of Urth (particularly remembering Glokta and how he looked after that other lady character (forgot her name).

You do have problems with anyone even looking askance at a woman in fiction, don't you? And non-righteous protagonists?

[polishgenius]

I do struggle to connect emotionally with Wolfe (especially New Sun - Long Sun which I'm currently reading is more immediately likeable), but in terms of prose and narrative he's a whole other level to anyone else I've read. My first read of New Sun was tough, but there were enough moments to get me through, and the second time still wasn't easy - but the thing about him is he's so rewarding and going back to other writers after him is what really highlights just how good his prose is.

I also absolutely love the many stories-within-the-story, both the new ones and the twists and mixups of old folk and fairytales.

New Sun is also, by some distance, the densest book in terms of information-per-sentence I've ever read, yet somehow never feels rushed. I can be reading it and think I've read twenty or thirty pages and check back to find that it's, like, five.

I do recommend not necessarily trying to plow through it like your average book though. Take pauses, let it percolate.


The other thing about the Solar Cycle is that while I've read quite a few fantasy books that are considerations of religion and faith, from both positive and negative aspects, and some of them have had an effect on me, it's usually quite a confrontational thing - here's my opinion/here are some questions, go and think about them. Whereas Wolfe gets the wheels spinning in a much more subtle way.

[Otataral Toblakai]

 Puck, on 23 September 2012 - 11:49 AM, said:

 Otataral Toblakai, on 23 September 2012 - 06:59 AM, said:

Unfortunately, it was less epic that I expected and rather drab/boring, told in a continous monologue with spoilers (for example, it is revealed at the start that he'll end up as the Autarch) and a plot that had enormous potential but that potential was hardly put to use. The protagonist was less of a torturer than an arrogant son of nobility. But what galled me most about him was how he treated the women around him, those he had relationships with. I couldn't help but get wrong vibes off his relationship with Dorcas. He often hit the women he wandered around with and that bugged me a lot. I would have had no issues with torture, cruelty or any other barbaric act on the men of Urth (particularly remembering Glokta and how he looked after that other lady character (forgot her name).

You do have problems with anyone even looking askance at a woman in fiction, don't you? And non-righteous protagonists?

I have no problem with non-righteous protagonists - the bloodier, brutaler, the better. But yes, I do have a problem with the treatment of women in fantasy. I'd like my fantasy to be devoid of that one despicable act. Reality notwithstanding, I'd prefer that one piece of idealism and perfection in what I read.
.
These two articles are also rather informative on this issue (written by someone else). Do give them a look. Couldn't have put it better.

http://scribotarian....ing-your-women/

http://scribotarian....ing-your-women/

[QuickTidal]

So you want your protag to be bloody and brutal...but you want him to treat people nicely.

Gotcha.

[Otataral Toblakai]

 Dr Trouble, on 23 September 2012 - 08:21 AM, said:

I thought it was an ace series personally. Severian is both interesting and horribe. The way he tells his story, sometimes skirting away from things, other times outright lying, was a first for me as a reader.

I did prefer Soldier of the Mist honesty.

I'll try to give more impressions on the series when I have time... Might have to flick through it again too for a reminder ...

His personality is interesting, granted, but it could have been more so if certain aspects of his personality were removed. I continued reading it more for the overall plot that for his character, though. And his monologue sounded too narcissistic for my taste.

Ill give Soldier of the Mist a look. Is it in the same vein?

 POOPOO MCBUMFACE, on 23 September 2012 - 10:53 AM, said:

I only got halfway through (finished the first "two" books) and found it really uninteresting. I feel like I should finish it, but I just wasn't being given anything to draw me in. I'm glad it wasn't epic and heroic and whatever, or I probably would have chucked it halfway through, it wasn't really a difficult read, I know there was a lot going on under the surface, but I just felt like I didn't have any real reason to care about any of it. It was just weirdness after weirdness after Catholic imagery after HA HA LOOK THERE IS A PHOTO OF A MAN ON THE MOON BUT THE CHARACTERS HAVE FORGOTTEN THEIR HISTORY AND DON'T KNOW THAT'S WHAT IT IS!!! after weird tree battle after exploding girlfriend. Actually, if I'd read that description myself, I probably would have wanted to read it. It just... managed to make me not care.

I wasn't totally impressed by the prose, either, but I can tell he is a skilled author. Might give Soldier in the Mist a read before I write him off.

Mr. Crap in the Face, you echo my feelings quite well. I still wonder I read it to the end.

 polishgenius, on 23 September 2012 - 11:50 AM, said:

I do struggle to connect emotionally with Wolfe (especially New Sun - Long Sun which I'm currently reading is more immediately likeable), but in terms of prose and narrative he's a whole other level to anyone else I've read. My first read of New Sun was tough, but there were enough moments to get me through, and the second time still wasn't easy - but the thing about him is he's so rewarding and going back to other writers after him is what really highlights just how good his prose is.

I also absolutely love the many stories-within-the-story, both the new ones and the twists and mixups of old folk and fairytales.

New Sun is also, by some distance, the densest book in terms of information-per-sentence I've ever read, yet somehow never feels rushed. I can be reading it and think I've read twenty or thirty pages and check back to find that it's, like, five.

I do recommend not necessarily trying to plow through it like your average book though. Take pauses, let it percolate.


The other thing about the Solar Cycle is that while I've read quite a few fantasy books that are considerations of religion and faith, from both positive and negative aspects, and some of them have had an effect on me, it's usually quite a confrontational thing - here's my opinion/here are some questions, go and think about them. Whereas Wolfe gets the wheels spinning in a much more subtle way.

I personally look more at an author's story telling, the diversity of his characters and the overall epicness of it all. I don't look so much as prose - though I'd prefer a more Eriksonish prose filled with philosophical ramblings.

[Puck]

 Otataral Toblakai, on 23 September 2012 - 12:21 PM, said:

 Puck, on 23 September 2012 - 11:49 AM, said:

 Otataral Toblakai, on 23 September 2012 - 06:59 AM, said:

Unfortunately, it was less epic that I expected and rather drab/boring, told in a continous monologue with spoilers (for example, it is revealed at the start that he'll end up as the Autarch) and a plot that had enormous potential but that potential was hardly put to use. The protagonist was less of a torturer than an arrogant son of nobility. But what galled me most about him was how he treated the women around him, those he had relationships with. I couldn't help but get wrong vibes off his relationship with Dorcas. He often hit the women he wandered around with and that bugged me a lot. I would have had no issues with torture, cruelty or any other barbaric act on the men of Urth (particularly remembering Glokta and how he looked after that other lady character (forgot her name).

You do have problems with anyone even looking askance at a woman in fiction, don't you? And non-righteous protagonists?

I have no problem with non-righteous protagonists - the bloodier, brutaler, the better. But yes, I do have a problem with the treatment of women in fantasy. I'd like my fantasy to be devoid of that one despicable act. Reality notwithstanding, I'd prefer that one piece of idealism and perfection in what I read.
.
These two articles are also rather informative on this issue (written by someone else). Do give them a look. Couldn't have put it better.

http://scribotarian....ing-your-women/

http://scribotarian....ing-your-women/

I think we had this already in another thread, but anyway: if that's also your opinion, then why do you read Malazan? There's plenty of rape and worse.

I get where the blog posts you linked are coming from, but there's a world between that and stuff that actually advances the story. Oh well, going to stop here, as trying to argue with you about that is wasted effort

[D'rek]

I gave up half-way through book 3. I know that supposedly there is so much going on under the surface that you only see on a re-read, but on the surface it felt like a series of almost-completely unrelated events told in a really uninterestingly drab way that did nothing to interest me. There didn't really seem to be anything happening in the plot or narrative to try and actually draw me further or foreshadowing any sort of ending - it seemed like the rest of the series was just going to be another bunch of random events happening with no further purpose - so I gave up.

[Una]

I love this series, but I would be the first to say that I don't actually get it all. It's different. It's dense. It's weird in just the way I like my weird fiction. There is so much underneath the surface I feel I've barely scratched the surface considering I've only done a first read of it. I will definitely be going back for a reread.

The main character is not particularly admirable, on that I can agree. His treatment of women is terrible. It's a reflection of his character. He's completely self-absorbed. In his mind, they exist purely to satisfy his lust. But, being the selfish person he is, he truly believes that he LOVES each one of them, at that exact moment, at least. I lost count of the times I would say, "Severian, you are SUCH a horndog!", as I was reading. I suppose being raised in what is essentially a monastery and then being set loose on the world doesn't really help any, but even so... He's an imperfect narrator, but I found I just really wanted to see where his journey took him.

I consider the scene with the alzabo to be the scariest thing I have ever read. Reading it at 11pm alone in an empty apartment probably didn't help.

[amphibian]

 polishgenius, on 23 September 2012 - 11:50 AM, said:

(especially New Sun - Long Sun which I'm currently reading is more immediately likeable)

The Short Sun books are his most emotionally affecting works. What he did in those three short books is nothing short of stellar (pun alert!).

Wolfe isn't for everyone, but what he does extraordinarily well is to take stories/characters/tropes that we're familiar with and rework them in such a manner that they're entirely fresh and usually way more dangerous, complex and unpredictable than we'd previously thought. He did this with the "amnesiac soldier" trope in Soldier in the Mist, "a knight in the fairy world" in the Wizard Knight and with "the exiled chosen one goes on an epic journey" in the New Sun.

It takes a while to accept that Wolfe is going to go at his own pace, but when he ramps up the action, I'm not sure there's a person writing who does individual confrontations and outbreaks of violence better. As Una said, the New Sun's alzabo scene is bonechilling and the Typhon scenes were as Sci-Fi as Sci-Fi gets.

This post has been edited by amphibian: 24 September 2012 - 08:17 PM

[Baco Xtath]

Wolfe can be a chore but so is my wife; once you've entered into that relationship, the rewards are bountiful even if they can be painful and patience pinching. I'm mid Long Sun but plan on taking it all the way.

And where the fuck is Saltman?


Edit: Cause I do metaphors like a kindergartner.

This post has been edited by Baco Xtath: 24 September 2012 - 03:03 AM

[Salt-Man Z]

I'm here. I just wasn't feeling up for trying to defend Wolfe to those who've (presumably) already made up their mind. It's a little condescending to say there are people who just will never "get" Wolfe, so I'll just say that he scratches an itch that I never knew I had until I'd read him. Also count me among those who wasn't super-impressed with TBotNS the first time I read it, and by "read it" I mean the whole thing; but it haunted me for an entire year until I reread it for the first time, after which I loved it, and continue to do so.

But if TBotNS isn't your thing, you could always try the Soldier series. Or The Wizard Knight. Or The Fifth Head of Cerberus. Or Peace. Or one of his five billion short story collections (if you got burned on TBotNS but still want to give Wolfe a low-risk shot, I would recommend picking up Starwater Strains and checking out "Golden City Far".)

[champ]

Wolfe is marmite...

I've read tBotNS and The Fifth Head of Cerberus.

tBotNS first read was a bit over my head. I enjoyed it though and intend to reread soon!

FHoC was just nuts!

[Salt-Man Z]

There are 3 Latro books, with (or so I've heard) enough loose ends for at least one more.

[amphibian]

 Briar King, on 25 September 2012 - 02:16 AM, said:

Ok I am just missing 1 then. I have the Latro in the Mist duology. Fuck that was a great read...

The third one is even better written than the first two - and it takes place in Egypt, so the mythology and people are really different and unique. However, it does conclude with a bunch of loose ends.

[amphibian]

 Briar King, on 25 September 2012 - 02:48 AM, said:

He's getting old to. Hope he writes more if he intends to to tie those ends up.

I know, man. I even bought Soldier of Sidon and Home Fires in hardcover to try and give him and his publishers more money/incentive to write that stuff. Home Fires wasn't good though.

I think Wolfe wants to take Latro to Jerusalem or something. Getting him there from up the Nile is a tricky process and he did take almost 15 years to write Sidon after Arete was done.

I can't push a publisher without connections, but I really wish I was some kind of crazy billionaire with the pull to get him or her up before my desk and demand a last Soldier book. "You make this happen, you hear? I don't care if you have to port Wolfe around research libraries and Old Towns of ancient cities on a palanquin with houris feeding him grapes all the while. You make this happen!"

[Una]

 Salt-Man Z, on 24 September 2012 - 02:51 PM, said:

I'm here. I just wasn't feeling up for trying to defend Wolfe to those who've (presumably) already made up their mind. It's a little condescending to say there are people who just will never "get" Wolfe, so I'll just say that he scratches an itch that I never knew I had until I'd read him. Also count me among those who wasn't super-impressed with TBotNS the first time I read it, and by "read it" I mean the whole thing; but it haunted me for an entire year until I reread it for the first time, after which I loved it, and continue to do so.

I think it's fair to say that some people aren't quite ready for him. I know I wasn't when I first tried him. I read the Book of the Long Sun when I was about 16 and I just don't think I was at a place in my reading where I could really do anything with it. I know it took a few tries to get going. It stuck with me for being different, but I know I was just reading for surface story. At the time, I couldn't even get past the first chapter of Soldiers of the Mist and I never reattempted it. Over 10 years later, I've read a lot more and picked up New Sun because I had heard so many good things about it. It got me to rereading Long Sun and it was definitely a whole different experience the second time.

[Morgoth]

Book of the New Sun is in my humble opinion one of the few true masterpieces of the fantasy/sci fi genre.

Wolfe's prose is immaculate. Perhaps the very best to be found in his genre. And Severian is by far the best example of an unreliable narrator I've ever encountered in fiction. I guess that particular aspect is more noticeable on a re-read, but still.

I enjoy the feeling of there being so much just beyond my grasp. As if I've only scratched the surface of something much much deeper. A re-read reveals another layer, but there always seems to be more.

Still, I understand it's not for everyone. Not, however, because people don't 'get' Wolfe, though I'm sure many out there don't I doubt many of those are to be found here. Rather Wolfe's style of storytelling is distinc to the point that it is bound to turn many away. I could never enjoy Dostoevsky, but then I would never claim his books to be bad.

As for TT's opinons: I find it hard to be interested in someones opinions when they seem constructed purely from a check list. A protagonist with a negative view of women equals bad litterature is an absurd position to take in my opinion.