Malazan Empire: Can someone explain for the slw? - Malazan Empire

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Can someone explain for the slw?

#1 User is offline   JohnO 

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 08:12 PM

Read the book, feeling very underwhelmed. Is there any explanation of
Who / what was the tyrant and what did he want? Being evil and sitting in a dome doesn't seem very ambitious
Why didn't Tay melt in the vitr
How did the tyrant fall last time
What was the point of the whole spawns thing, and why does ICE insist on hiding characters behind "you may call me bob" who we're they really - if folks we don't know why bother with subterfuge? It's just tedious!
What motivated taya if anything?
Am hoping future books will make sense. Malazans novels are supposed to have characters who obey some sort of internal logic. This seemed absent in OST people just did stuff and it all conveniently worked outin the end
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#2 User is online   Aptorian 

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 07:09 AM

View PostJohnO, on 01 September 2012 - 08:12 PM, said:

Who / what was the tyrant and what did he want? Being evil and sitting in a dome doesn't seem very ambitious


The tyrant is more of a manifestation of power than a person. He rises and falls like most tyrannical empires. He's represented in the Deck of Dragons by Orb (his mask, the dome, glass orbs from Darujistans past) which is the representation of rulership. I think there's something of a cyclical nature to him, in which the circle breaker role comes into play. He needs to fall so that he can rise again.

I don't think he is capable of changing his nature. He does what he does. As for just sitting around on his ass most of the book, yes, extremely boring.

View PostJohnO, on 01 September 2012 - 08:12 PM, said:

Why didn't Tay melt in the vitr


A good question that I don't think is fully explained but most likely when Tayschren entered chaos he was changed. Fundementally so. If you have read Forge of Darkness you know that the Vitr is a special place. The fact that he came out of the Vitr should tell you that he is no longer human but most likely something akin to the Elder Gods.

View PostJohnO, on 01 September 2012 - 08:12 PM, said:

How did the tyrant fall last time


Nobody knows but it sounded like Kruppe was there as well.

View PostJohnO, on 01 September 2012 - 08:12 PM, said:

What was the point of the whole spawns thing, and why does ICE insist on hiding characters behind "you may call me bob" who we're they really - if folks we don't know why bother with subterfuge? It's just tedious!


I believe the point was a set-up for some Andii-related story telling. It introduces Orchid who will probably become important later and it told us some stuff about Rakes Andii and the skykeep they lived in. It also introduced the mask of the first.

Not sure what you mean with the character names. Erikson does this all the time. It's part of the allure of the series that you're never quite sure who or what any given character is, was or will be later on.

View PostJohnO, on 01 September 2012 - 08:12 PM, said:

What motivated taya if anything?


A lust for power, a need to prove herself and a hate/love relationship with her mother. She's just a teenager/young woman who's struggling to find out who she actually is, unfortunately she also has terrible power and little sense of responsibility.

View PostJohnO, on 01 September 2012 - 08:12 PM, said:

Am hoping future books will make sense. Malazans novels are supposed to have characters who obey some sort of internal logic. This seemed absent in OST people just did stuff and it all conveniently worked outin the end


I think this critique is unfair. There was plenty of logic to the characters motivations. It's what Erikson did with the characters and the story that annoyed me personally.

This post has been edited by Aptorius: 02 September 2012 - 07:12 AM

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#3 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 01:56 PM

Erikson? This novel was written by his old friend James G. "the Iceman" Whistlemount!
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Posted 03 September 2012 - 09:37 AM

View PostJohnO, on 01 September 2012 - 08:12 PM, said:

Who / what was the tyrant and what did he want? Being evil and sitting in a dome doesn't seem very ambitious


That's one of the cleverest things about the Tyrant. If he was a big threat to the world like the Crippled God, various powerful ascendants would converge to crush him. (And they would, he's not really that powerful.) But he only wants one city and token obedience from a few other places (he leaves Black Coral alone, because the Andii wouldn't submit to him and would be pretty hard to take down besides.) Which means that only a few people can be bothered with him. Caladan Brood is the only major player who cares about a small area of Genabackis.

It doesn't work, because the moranth remember last time, but it was still clever.

This post has been edited by the broken: 03 September 2012 - 09:37 AM

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#5 User is online   Aptorian 

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 12:56 PM

You really believe that all he wanted was Darujistan and maybe a little tribute from the other Free Cities? That's like saying that Hitler only wanted some Polish land because, you know, it was once a part of Prussia. Surely, the Tyrant is a man of his word. He couldn't possibly be lying. Right? huh? ... guys?
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#6 User is offline   JohnO 

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 08:54 PM

I guess it's the lack of planning that annoys me about the tyrant. 2,000 years down a hole plotting and other than the first move what did he do? Sat and watch his best troops get wasted and begin to mutiny. People who waste their resources that badly don't get to be super vilans, they get jobs in HR. It would have been a lot better if he had reacted to stuff and ajusted his plans accordingly.
The name thing comes down to quantity. I don't mind a couple of people hiding their names, but when it's half the cast and there is no reason for it, it's just annoying.
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Posted 05 September 2012 - 01:51 PM

View PostAptorius, on 03 September 2012 - 12:56 PM, said:

You really believe that all he wanted was Darujistan and maybe a little tribute from the other Free Cities?



Sure. Because he doesn't have enough power to take anything more. He leaves the Andii alone, because they are too tough to crack, and he only has two and a half demon mages, which he needs to keep close for personal protection.

The aliases mostly make sense to me.

Leoman is not going to reveal his name to an Imperial Claw.

Warran is not going to reveal his name to two wanderers he wants to believe him harmlessly insane. Plus he's having too much fun.

Caladan Brood is not going to announce his name on a boat while on a secret mission.
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#8 User is offline   Kanese S's 

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 05:40 AM

He wanted to be the head honcho of Genabackis. For starters.

Aliases don't bother me at all. In many cases they make sense.

Taya is a teenage girl with a lot more power than sense.

Tayschrenn has something special going on. More might be revealed, but might not.
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#9 User is offline   Lucryster 

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 01:29 PM

View PostKanese S, on 05 October 2012 - 05:40 AM, said:

He wanted to be the head honcho of Genabackis. For starters.

Aliases don't bother me at all. In many cases they make sense.

Taya is a teenage girl with a lot more power than sense.

Tayschrenn has something special going on. More might be revealed, but might not.


It was my understanding that Tay ascended at the end.
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#10 User is offline   Orlion 

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 08:00 PM

The Tyrant's focus was to protect himself. That's why he sat in and built a dome. That's why he kept his surviving demon mages close. That's why he called the Seguleh to Darujastan. That's why he was building a circle of mystical stones that would provide a shield for him from outside threats.

Further, being a rotten corpse with a mask in a hole in the ground does not necessarily indicate that he was conscious. And what planning can one do when they are cut off from the world by layers and layer of rock? The best thing he was able to do was try to neutralize immediate threats (i.e. take the Free Cities quickly and assure the Andii that he wasn't going to attack them.....yet....) and establish himself sufficiently in a stronghold where he could then plot further conquests without fear of being overthrown by fat pastry eaters.
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#11 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 08:18 PM

View PostOrlion, on 16 October 2012 - 08:00 PM, said:

...what planning can one do when they are cut off from the world by layers and layer of rock? ...


Arguably the Seguleh and T'orrud Cabal were the result of long-term planning by the Tyrant for his eventual awakening.

Both groups changed significantly in his absence, but their original purpose was to be a standing army and mage cadre on call when he showed up.

The fact that the Seguleh didn't exactly meet his needs (great fighters but neither police nor an 'army') and roughly half the Cabad rebelled (Baruk unsuccessfully, Derudan, Vorcan, possibly Kruppe) goes to your point that there were limits to what he could do, but he did plan even so, as the Seguleh and most of the Cabal did come when summoned.
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#12 User is offline   Sinisdar Toste 

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 11:51 PM

and of course, vorcan herself severely thinned the cabal's numbers in GotM.
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#13 User is offline   Child Sengar 

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 04:08 AM

View PostLucryster, on 16 October 2012 - 01:29 PM, said:

View PostKanese S, on 05 October 2012 - 05:40 AM, said:

He wanted to be the head honcho of Genabackis. For starters.

Aliases don't bother me at all. In many cases they make sense.

Taya is a teenage girl with a lot more power than sense.

Tayschrenn has something special going on. More might be revealed, but might not.


It was my understanding that Tay ascended at the end.


I thought so as well. I don't know that anything more need be done necessarily in regards to Tayschrenn (or "T'renn" as he is now called). Of course,
it would be great if he was involved later, but for now he's just some kind of a replacement for K'rul, doing his own thing, just like Kell and Cotillion are still out there doing whatever they feel like.
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#14 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 02:20 PM

View PostEye of Abnegation, on 18 June 2013 - 04:08 AM, said:

...for now he's just some kind of a replacement for K'rul, doing his own thing, just like Kell and Cotillion are still out there doing whatever they feel like.


We don't actually know what Tays' new aspect is, do we?

And it's not like Krul's was ever all that clear, in fact back in MoI it was implied that he was trying to change his aspect.

Sure it makes sense that Tays walking thru a gate in Krul's basement, he would ascend to a similar role, but Tays brings with him a whole other set of motivations and history and powers (Thyr, Mokra, that demon summoning warren i can never remember the name of, his old link to D'rek, whatever happens from being dipped in the Vitr...), so while he's stepped into the pantheon in some respect, it may not be as a direct 'replacement' so much as a new player with some overlap, similar to how there are like six different gods of 'War'.
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#15 User is offline   Child Sengar 

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 03:48 PM

Abyss said:

1371565241[/url]' post='1063856']

Eye of Abnegation said:

1371528527[/url]' post='1063731']
...for now he's just some kind of a replacement for K'rul, doing his own thing, just like Kell and Cotillion are still out there doing whatever they feel like.


We don't actually know what Tays' new aspect is, do we?

And it's not like Krul's was ever all that clear, in fact back in MoI it was implied that he was trying to change his aspect.

Sure it makes sense that Tays walking thru a gate in Krul's basement, he would ascend to a similar role, but Tays brings with him a whole other set of motivations and history and powers (Thyr, Mokra, that demon summoning warren i can never remember the name of, his old link to D'rek, whatever happens from being dipped in the Vitr...), so while he's stepped into the pantheon in some respect, it may not be as a direct 'replacement' so much as a new player with some overlap, similar to how there are like six different gods of 'War'.


You're right, of course. The change wrought by the touch of chaos and the Vitr, in particular, I think would be most crucial in shaping what Tay brings to the table in his new aspect. Good insight.
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Posted 27 August 2013 - 09:19 AM

View PostJohnO, on 01 September 2012 - 08:12 PM, said:

Read the book, feeling very underwhelmed. Is there any explanation of
Who / what was the tyrant and what did he want? Being evil and sitting in a dome doesn't seem very ambitious
Why didn't Tay melt in the vitr
How did the tyrant fall last time
What was the point of the whole spawns thing, and why does ICE insist on hiding characters behind "you may call me bob" who we're they really - if folks we don't know why bother with subterfuge? It's just tedious!
What motivated taya if anything?
Am hoping future books will make sense. Malazans novels are supposed to have characters who obey some sort of internal logic. This seemed absent in OST people just did stuff and it all conveniently worked outin the end


The tyrant wanted what all tyrants want-power over others. I beg to differ regarding his role; he was very active in terms of givingbthe reader insights into.the Seguleh, the Moranth. That's just it-he represents ambition and Scorch and Leff make an appearance that is memorable and hilarious. Tayschrenn is a mystery, much like D'rek and nobody will ever understand him fully (in my opinion). There is evidence that he is connected to.the Azath somehow. Tyrant was taken down by Baruk and his cabal of sorcerers, if I'm not mistaken. The Spawns episodes had many points. Antsy wanted to honour his fellow bridgeburners by basically blowing the.spawns to kingdom come- ie:sinking it to.prevent grave robbers. Also, the spawns address some questions about kurald galain. The whole where's waldo/bob's yer.uncle deal speaks to the masks.that we all wear for.various reasons (transitions/pivotal moments) . The theme of masks is evident.throughout the.book: the Seguleh, Moranth, malakai, the tyrant, humble measure,etc. Reast is a humble housekeepr instead of the.juggernaught seen.impervious appearances. Ironically, he is playing cards with an Imass! Taya is again, ambition personified. She wants her mother's power, she wants to be the right hand.of that sleezebag mallick ( laseen's usurper)
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#17 User is offline   TheRetiredBridgeburner 

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Posted 26 January 2014 - 12:16 PM

I've just finished the book and I didn't really take to the Tyrant as a bad guy - the largely sitting around doing nothing just dropped any sort of threat for me. Each new time he resurfaced in a chapter my reaction was very much "Oh, you're still here" and nothing more.

Taya seemed a little underused for me - at the beginning it seems like she's going to have an important role (I may have missed something, there were definitely places where I caught myself skimming) and then she eventually ends up in the "Oh, you again" category.

Overall I enjoyed the book though, it was nice to be back in Darujhistan and it had plenty of good points to outweigh the things I felt were weaknesses.

It'll be interesting to see if Tayschrenn turns up again in later books, I thoroughly enjoyed Kiska's sections involving him. Also, I had a slight concern I wouldn't like Esslemont's Kruppe having become so used to Erikson's, but I think he handled both him and the Bridgeburners at Krul's Bar really well. A tip of the hat!
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