[Vaddon Ra]

But look at the death of Scabandari at the start of RG when Gothos basically screws over Mael and Kilmandaros to claim the soul of Father Shadow, he's incredibly powerful, and was of course the lord of hate. To be honest they are probably equal it's just that Gothos renounced ambition and Hood warred against Death, was powerful enough to claim King of Death etc etc... Even so, after his death (ha) and the breaking of Dragnipur when he appears in front of the forkrul assail she genuinely craps herself because even though he's not sat on the throne anymore she can feel that he is so powerful that he could have been anything he wanted...... and then he bites her face off...

HOOD!!!!!!

SO i VOTE HOOD due to massive waves of nerdy fanboyness when I read TCG, and you know... in a contest you gotta stick with your loyalties haven't you (cough scabandari, cough)

[Malaclypse]

Believe what you like, but don't forget to call it faith

[blackzoid]

Malaclypse, on 30 August 2012 - 09:13 PM, said:

LOL, and? is this an argument?

Alright, let's pretend that it is...your only potentially salient point is that 'he ain't scared of Gothos'.

I think that he is, because Hood is sensible, for the most part. Gothos outclasses Hood in every category - he's more experienced, smarter, craftier and utterly ruthless. Even if their relative mastery of Omtose Phellack (and whatever other warrens they may have access to) is equal (which I highly doubt), Gothos is far more cold-blooded than Hood, which is especially funny cuz Hood is the God of Death, but he kinda just fell into it and never really knew what to do with it - Gothos is not so foolish.

Oh..so you are not having a jokey conversation. Ok. So you really did want a serious argument on this?
If you do, i'd have to say:

1: "more experienced"
Can you please justify that? Where is is stated in the books that Hood is younger than Gothos?

2: "smarter, craftier and utterly ruthless"
Can you prove that? Hood and Gothos were never compared in that way in the books as far as I know. I assume that all you have is SE's quote on Gothos being his shaved knuckle in the hole to support this one.

3: "Gothos is far more cold-blooded than Hood"
Can you prove that too? Again, Hood and Gothos were never compared in that way in the books as far as I know.

I'm just curious as to where your assertions are coming from. Thats if you want a serious-ish argument on this. Myself, I don't know who would win as the evidence is insufficient either way. Which come to think of it, is the only answer that any of us can give realistically.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 30 August 2012 - 10:34 PM

[Malaclypse]

blackzoid, on 30 August 2012 - 10:27 PM, said:

Malaclypse, on 30 August 2012 - 09:13 PM, said:

LOL, and? is this an argument?

Alright, let's pretend that it is...your only potentially salient point is that 'he ain't scared of Gothos'.

I think that he is, because Hood is sensible, for the most part. Gothos outclasses Hood in every category - he's more experienced, smarter, craftier and utterly ruthless. Even if their relative mastery of Omtose Phellack (and whatever other warrens they may have access to) is equal (which I highly doubt), Gothos is far more cold-blooded than Hood, which is especially funny cuz Hood is the God of Death, but he kinda just fell into it and never really knew what to do with it - Gothos is not so foolish.

Oh..so you are not having a jokey conversation. Ok. So you really did want a serious argument on this?
If you do, i'd have to say:

1: "more experienced"
Can you please justify that? Where is is stated in the books that Hood is younger than Gothos?

I suppose I struggle with 'knowing too much' and I'm not as good at compartmentalizing as I used to be so fair point. However, Gothos is, in fact, older (or if not, then more mature) than Hood, and miles cooler, as evidenced by the events of FoD. He avoided all responsibility, penned a much sought-after historical text (endless suicide note as well, which I find particularly clever, dude's like the Quick Ben of Jaghut) which was a massive piss-take and obviously unreliable if you knew him, lived through the next few hundred thousand years in which his writings take on this air of antiquity and prominence to scholars and never raises his hand, never reaches out to say to a particularly earnest student to say 'hey, stop it, it's not that important, nobody really knew what was going on in those days, honestly'...because he knew it would make no difference whatsoever, people believe what they want to believe. So yeah, I dunno, I 'got' Gothos early on and I'm sure there are references to his power early in the series. I always considered Gothos as 'elder' and therefore older than Hood - ha, I think I'm ready to scrap about this specifically now, find quotes and so on, so it's cool if you want to pursue it.

2: "smarter, craftier and utterly ruthless"
Can you prove that? Hood and Gothos were never compared in that way in the books as far as I know. I assume that all you have is SE's quote on Gothos being his shaved knuckle in the hole to support this one.

Where are you drawing a line in terms of book knowledge first of all? (applies to the question above now that I think of it) - my sense is you're talking about the main series and FoD is unfair knowledge so I will proceed on that basis. By the end of the main series we know that Gothos chose to become a guardian of the Azath Houses, could travel between them, and even leave if he wanted. Raest and Icarium are his offspring, he's not particularly impressed by either of them and not really put out by their shenanigans either - speaks to a species of remove, like he can't be touched by the world- no matter how bad it gets, he's always got a way out and he's not remotely concerned - sure this could be misconstrued as suicidal, but that's the joke, suicide would be too easy, he wants to punish himself by watching others make the same mistakes over and over and over again. Someone who's studied archaeology might feel similarly

3: "Gothos is far more cold-blooded than Hood"
Can you prove that too? Again, Hood and Gothos were never compared in that way in the books as far as I know.

See above.

I'm just curious as to where your assertions are coming from. Thats if you want a serious-ish argument on this. Myself, I don't know who would win as the evidence is insufficient either way. Which come to think of it, is the only answer that any of us can give realistically.

Ha! Don't flatter yourself. I await your response

[blackzoid]

"I suppose I struggle with 'knowing too much' and I'm not as good at compartmentalizing as I used to be so fair point. However, Gothos is, in fact, older (or if not, then more mature) than Hood, and miles cooler, as evidenced by the events of FoD. He avoided all responsibility, penned a much sought-after historical text (endless suicide note as well, which I find particularly clever, dude's like the Quick Ben of Jaghut) which was a massive piss-take and obviously unreliable if you knew him, lived through the next few hundred thousand years in which his writings take on this air of antiquity and prominence to scholars and never raises his hand, never reaches out to say to a particularly earnest student to say 'hey, stop it, it's not that important, nobody really knew what was going on in those days, honestly'...because he knew it would make no difference whatsoever, people believe what they want to believe. So yeah, I dunno, I 'got' Gothos early on and I'm sure there are references to his power early in the series. I always considered Gothos as 'elder' and therefore older than Hood - ha, I think I'm ready to scrap about this specifically now, find quotes and so on, so it's cool if you want to pursue it."

How does that equal that Gothos is older than Hood? Thats just a ton of waffle you've written there. Very nice waffle, but still lacking in simple fact along the lines of: Gothos is x years and Hood is y years old. As far as I remember FoD doesn't mention Hood being younger than Gothos.

"Where are you drawing a line in terms of book knowledge first of all? (applies to the question above now that I think of it) - my sense is you're talking about the main series and FoD is unfair knowledge so I will proceed on that basis"

I have no problems accepting FoD. No problem with that at all.

By the end of the main series we know that Gothos chose to become a guardian of the Azath Houses, could travel between them, and even leave if he wanted. Raest and Icarium are his offspring, he's not particularly impressed by either of them and not really put out by their shenanigans either - speaks to a species of remove, like he can't be touched by the world- no matter how bad it gets, he's always got a way out and he's not remotely concerned - sure this could be misconstrued as suicidal, but that's the joke, suicide would be too easy, he wants to punish himself by watching others make the same mistakes over and over and over again. Someone who's studied archaeology might feel similarly"

.........Again. Thats all great lovely waffle about Gothos. I love it, but there's not a single mention of Hood once in those lines and how what Gothos did is better than Hood. I could equally say that Hood fought a war. Gothos never fought a war. I could say that Hood sustained a marriage, as far as we know Gothos was never married. So Hood...wins? No, because its not comparable. I mean why bring up the fact that Gothos sired two kids? What relevance is that? None at all is the answer.

Mal:

1: Gothos older than Hood. Prove it using quotes. FoD is not off-limits.
2: Gothos smarter/more devious/more ruthless/whatever than Hood. Prove it using quotes. FoD is not off-limits.

I am not asserting that Hood can beat Gothos. I'm saying I don't know either way. As you seem certain that Gothos would win, I'm asking you back up your points with quotes from the books. If you actually have them, well than,congrats you win. But i'd like to see them. Not inane ramblings about how cool Gothos is.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 30 August 2012 - 11:30 PM

[Malaclypse]

You make very good points.

My point is that Gothos is cooler than Hood, and Hood would acknowledge it, in my opinion. There may or may not be quotes to support this opinion, but I hold to it nonetheless and to be perfectly honest, I struggle to understand how a human being with a fully-functioning brain could disagree. I'll be honest with you and admit that I'm too lazy to hunt down the quotes which would support but not conclusively prove my opinion on this matter. The argument you've chosen to engage is in clearly pointless - PROVE THAT GOTHOS IS OLDER THAN HOOD! I WANT DATES AND BIRTH RECORDS AND...I dunno mate, I was like that once, and then I met Steve - weird too, cuz it is like a chill-out drug but he's stone-cold sober all of the time and he looks at you with those cold, cold eyes and all of a sudden you start re-evaluating things - maybe my questions are stupid, maybe I care too much about this tiny detail, maybe I should start to pay attention to other things..Anyway, fine, you can believe whatever the fuck you want. I don't have to prove shit. I have a belief which is in opposition to yours and that's the end of it.

[blackzoid]

I appreciate your honesty Mal.
I'm not that pushed either way.
Peace.

[Kanese S's]

Mael: "Hey Gothos, could you block off this continent for a while, say.... thousands upon thousands of years?"

Gothos: "Sure, buddy, no problem. Anything else you need?"

Mael: "Nah, I'm good. Thanks man."

Gothos: "No big deal."

[Dolmen 2.0]

My point on this is that just because Hood was the king of the Jaghut does not mean he was the strongest. He was probably the jaghut version of Nimander, powerful in his own right but leader more because he saw it his duty to take up the role of king rather than because he wanted to take the throne by force. Hood is a VERY jaded softy and idealist despite the years. He fought death itself. He must have been incredibly charismatic, probably the guy killing tyrants that oppressed the T'lan Imass. Its suggested in MoI that many jaghut disagreed with the tyrants. Since hood was the leader I see him as pivotal in such a movement. I cannot see a jaghut giving in to a king because of fear. The fourteen didn't seem cowed by Hood. There was a fierce respect and loyalty to him that I think speaks to how 'moral' Hood is.


Then theres gothos. The flipside. The big bad. Looking at how screwed up his kids are I'd love to hear the family story. Icarium tried to free his dad who infact never wanted to be freed, thus damaging himself in the process and gothos is just like 'meh'. That speaks volumes about the guys character. Gothos is very likely elder. Mael and him are buddies and you might notice that elders tend to hang with elders in this series. That is not proof i admit but there is a hint in the approach Gothos has to life that suggests he has been around longer than most. There are stories of Gothos as far back as the FA initial rule and maybe further back to Andii formative years? I have only read accounts of Hood that hint he was around when the T'lan were oppressed something i take as more recent? I could be wrong though.


The gods in general fear the azath. gothos lives in them and has a better understanding of them than ANY other character we have read of. If I were to think about it I'd say Gothos is far more sinister than he is cool. His chat to the andii kids creeped me out big time. I like hood but would see Gothos as a likely victor because the evidence I have read suggests he is incredibly powerful and ruthless but really couldn't be bothered. True power is the luxury of doing nothing and I think Gothos kinda owns that reality.

[blackzoid]

"Neither Elder said another word as Gothos departed from the fissure. It always pleased him, outwitting
doddering old wrecks and all their hoary, brutal power."
RG prologue.

The context of that quote appears to me to be that Gothos doesn't consider himself as old as either Mael or Killy.

[worry]

Well why would he be? None of the Jaghut, as a species, are anywhere close to as old as those two Elder Gods.

[Dolmen 2.0]

True, i think he is younger than them but definately older than the current pantheon, possibly older than the letherii holds pantheon which he froze in place. He was certainly present during the rise of the first empire. He hints at being a puppet master. Influencing Icarium and probably sending raest down the path of a tyrant. He uses people ALOT ie the house mason and his intention with the andii kids whom he just randomly met. Would not have been surprised if he had shown up in tCG as one of the big bads. Perhaps the biggest bad?

Again his influence over people is suggested and estimated. dassembrae is younger than most gods and ascendants as is trake, but this says nothing about who is more powerful. Just gives us context as to the likelihood Gothos could be as old as or older than hood with more than a few understated achievements under his belt. he could be the God of the azath for all we know. He's an enigma and a massive blind spot that looks to be a monster on par with the best of them, I see him as posing a greater raw threat because he just knows so damned much and knowledge is power.


Then again worship and reverence have to balance the scales in hoods favour. Dassem is on PAR with the oldest son of darkeness, best warrior ever to some, because of worship and faith. Such a boost should be in effect for Hood negating the advantage of age Gothos may have. Hmmm...if gothos can weaponize the azath I doubt hood would best him. Especially if silchus couldnt break free. Its a tough call but i still see odds favouring gothos.

This post has been edited by Dolmen+: 31 August 2012 - 09:57 AM

[Tattersail_]

Hood is great yet I picked Gothos.

[blackzoid]

"Such a boost should be in effect for Hood negating the advantage of age Gothos may have"

Where are people getting the idea that Gothos is older than Hood? Where has this idea come from?
Is this another malazanempire meme in the making? I'm honestly perplexed here.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 31 August 2012 - 04:39 PM

[Brujah]

That was awesome guys. Mal, black, dolmen, kan, etc, not intentionally leaving anyone out: All of you guys brought to light MANY things that I'd forgotten, and some I either never knew, or just didn't catch. The info on Gothos was awesome. Don't forget, you guys may be having personal discussions, and trying to prove points to each other, but the rest of us benefitted from it greatly, ad well. Also, for example, whether black was right about a particular item, or if Mal was right, the end result was awesome-sauce information dump for the rest of us. I thought that was some killer info on both characters, but especially on Gothos, who I'd forgot the most about, and even asked in one of the first few posts for someone to paint Gothos's 'power' picture for us.Double reps and thanks.

This post has been edited by Brujah: 31 August 2012 - 09:55 PM

[Bazile]

It seems to me that this is a face-off between two opposites. Most/almost all Jaghuts were incredibly solitary creatures, and as a loner, I think Gothos was the most sucessful. But Hood, at 1 point, lead an army. Gothos vrs Hood alone....Gothos. If Hood gets to bring his friends....Hood. To quote very old commercials, I feel very strongly both ways.

baz