[Nocturnal]

Alright, I'm probably going to end up sounding like a completely insensitive dick for saying this but... I thought that Seren over-dramatized her rape. Yes, I understand, it's an awful and painful experience that leaves a scar and both body and soul. And yes, I know that wasn't the only issue, she felt betrayed by Hull and Buruk committed suicide. I know that she was unstable because all of that came together, but still going with Corlo's ritual seemed a bit over the top. I can understand that she wanted to massacre any random man in her path. But doing the ritual or committing suicide to me looked both overly dramatic and cowardly. It just didn't go well with the way her character was described from the beginning, I thought her much stronger and colder. I guess the only good explanation for this would be that she really loved/cared for both Hull and Buruk, but I just couldn't feel that throughout the book. Well, I wasn't raped so far, so I can't be the best judge, so forgive me if I seem too insensitive.

And I have a question or two. Since my concentration is not the best during summer heat I tend to black out during reading and completely overlook some parts or just forget them. So:
1. Why did the Ceda go crazy all of a sudden?
2. Why is Hull so bitter? What did Letheras do to him?
Please tell me if I missed the answers to those questions in this book. But, if they weren't revealed until later in the saga, then don't tell me.

[Abyss]

Nocturnal, on 23 August 2012 - 05:05 PM, said:

Alright, I'm probably going to end up sounding like a completely insensitive dick for saying this but... I thought that Seren over-dramatized her rape. ...

The point you're apparently ignorant of is that there can be any number of different reactions to that kind of trauma. That was Seren's. It comes a bit out of nowhere because we don't really know her all that well by that point in the story, but it's far from 'over' anything imnsho.

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1. Why did the Ceda go crazy all of a sudden?

He was forcing all his power and concentration into the tiles for his final attack against the Warlock-King.
It made him a bit more scattered than he already was.

Quote

2. Why is Hull so bitter? What did Letheras do to him?

Hull's story is one of the most poorly developped in the book, and the details were easy to miss.
in a nutshell, he spent years roaming around finding tribes of non-humans and convincing them to join the Letherii Empire. All of them, without exception, got royally screwed and more or less destroyed as a culture. When we meet Hull in the book, he has just realized this and is planing to make the Edur the instrument of his 'revenge'.

The problem is he's really looking for redemption more than revenge, and focuses his anger at himself on the Letherii.

And then for some weird related reason or possibly just because they too were sick of his whining, the Nerek stab his ass to death.

[worry]

Nocturnal, on 23 August 2012 - 05:05 PM, said:

Well, I wasn't raped so far, so I can't be the best judge, so forgive me if I seem too insensitive.

No.

[POOPOO MCBUMFACE]

Rape aside, "I can do a quick painless ritual free of charge/catch that unlocks your hidden awesome magical talents" isn't really a deal I'd take a great deal of persuasion to enter into. "I can do a quick painless ritual that helps you overcome the trauma of being raped and also unlock your hidden awesome magical talents" even less so. Am I missing something?

This post has been edited by POOPOO MCBUMFACE: 23 August 2012 - 05:49 PM

[Nocturnal]

Abyss, on 23 August 2012 - 05:15 PM, said:

Nocturnal, on 23 August 2012 - 05:05 PM, said:

Alright, I'm probably going to end up sounding like a completely insensitive dick for saying this but... I thought that Seren over-dramatized her rape. ...

The point you're apparently ignorant of is that there can be any number of different reactions to that kind of trauma. That was Seren's. It comes a bit out of nowhere because we don't really know her all that well by that point in the story, but it's far from 'over' anything imnsho.

Quote

1. Why did the Ceda go crazy all of a sudden?

He was forcing all his power and concentration into the tiles for his final attack against the Warlock-King.
It made him a bit more scattered than he already was.

Quote

2. Why is Hull so bitter? What did Letheras do to him?

Hull's story is one of the most poorly developped in the book, and the details were easy to miss.
in a nutshell, he spent years roaming around finding tribes of non-humans and convincing them to join the Letherii Empire. All of them, without exception, got royally screwed and more or less destroyed as a culture. When we meet Hull in the book, he has just realized this and is planing to make the Edur the instrument of his 'revenge'.

The problem is he's really looking for redemption more than revenge, and focuses his anger at himself on the Letherii.

And then for some weird related reason or possibly just because they too were sick of his whining, the Nerek stab his ass to death.

Thank you for explaining that, now I don't have to go back and re-read.
As for Seren, as I mentioned earlier, she didn't seemed like an overly sensitive character in the book at all. Until her rape, that is, that's why that transition looked odd.

[Gnaw]

Nocturnal, on 23 August 2012 - 05:05 PM, said:

Alright, I'm probably going to end up sounding like a completely insensitive dick for saying this but... I thought that Seren over-dramatized her rape. Yes, I understand, it's an awful and painful experience that leaves a scar and both body and soul.

Well, I wasn't raped so far, so I can't be the best judge, so forgive me if I seem too insensitive.

Any rational response this first requires the answer to: Are you from Missouri?

[Nocturnal]

Gnaw, on 23 August 2012 - 06:44 PM, said:

Nocturnal, on 23 August 2012 - 05:05 PM, said:

Alright, I'm probably going to end up sounding like a completely insensitive dick for saying this but... I thought that Seren over-dramatized her rape. Yes, I understand, it's an awful and painful experience that leaves a scar and both body and soul.

Well, I wasn't raped so far, so I can't be the best judge, so forgive me if I seem too insensitive.

Any rational response this first requires the answer to: Are you from Missouri?

There's probably a witty remark behind that question somewhere which I fail to notice, so I'll take the bait. I am not... That is relevant, how?

[Gnaw]

Nocturnal, on 23 August 2012 - 08:25 PM, said:

Gnaw, on 23 August 2012 - 06:44 PM, said:

Nocturnal, on 23 August 2012 - 05:05 PM, said:

Alright, I'm probably going to end up sounding like a completely insensitive dick for saying this but... I thought that Seren over-dramatized her rape. Yes, I understand, it's an awful and painful experience that leaves a scar and both body and soul.

Well, I wasn't raped so far, so I can't be the best judge, so forgive me if I seem too insensitive.

Any rational response this first requires the answer to: Are you from Missouri?

. I am not... That is relevant, how?

"Not" means you get the rational answer. As already stated above, every person responds differently in such cases. So I find nothing 'strange' about her reaction. Ymmv according to your own level of experiences either of your own or to others around you. I will say that you are also leaving out one other factor: she knows what hell is descending upon her unsuspecting country and society. I would thin that would add more pressure.
Relevance of Missouri? Spoiler due to RL politics in wrong thread:

Spoiler

Missouri residents qualify for the irrational response. . Google "Akin Missouri rape comment"

[Nocturnal]

^Oh, god... That "Legitimate rape" comment is just awful. Now I feel like more of an asshole for saying that about Seren.

[Kanese S's]

Nocturnal, on 23 August 2012 - 05:05 PM, said:

Alright, I'm probably going to end up sounding like a completely insensitive dick for saying this but... I thought that Seren over-dramatized her rape. Yes, I understand, it's an awful and painful experience that leaves a scar and both body and soul. And yes, I know that wasn't the only issue, she felt betrayed by Hull and Buruk committed suicide. I know that she was unstable because all of that came together, but still going with Corlo's ritual seemed a bit over the top. I can understand that she wanted to massacre any random man in her path. But doing the ritual or committing suicide to me looked both overly dramatic and cowardly. It just didn't go well with the way her character was described from the beginning, I thought her much stronger and colder. I guess the only good explanation for this would be that she really loved/cared for both Hull and Buruk, but I just couldn't feel that throughout the book. Well, I wasn't raped so far, so I can't be the best judge, so forgive me if I seem too insensitive.

Everything in her world came crashing down at once.

And then she was raped. As I recall, by more than one person. Incredibly depressed thoughts, including feeling worthless, not wanting to live anymore, are very common for rape victims. Knowing a couple, I did not find her response overly dramatic in the least. Is that a request or a demand for forgiveness on the matter of being a completely insensitive dick?

Quote

And I have a question or two. Since my concentration is not the best during summer heat I tend to black out during reading and completely overlook some parts or just forget them.

Understandable. My brain doesn't function that well in the heat, either. Sometimes I think secretly I am a troll from Pratchett's Discworld.

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1. Why did the Ceda go crazy all of a sudden?

I always just chalked it up to using more sorcery than one can actually handle doing unpredictable things to the mind. Especially with the more chaotic nature of the holds, as opposed to the warrens.

Quote

2. Why is Hull so bitter? What did Letheras do to him?

Hull went as an emissary of a sort to the various tribes on the Letherii frontier. He functioned as something between an ambassador and an anthropologist, doing all that learning about other cultures and understanding them and stuff, with a very idealistic attitude probably thinking that he was working towards peace and other nice things like that.

The Letherii government/society, upon getting his info, promptly used all that he had learned to subjugate and basically enslave the tribes he had spent time with. He felt betrayed, and used as a tool for something detestable. Naturally, guilt at having provided the information that was used to exploit the Nerek, Tarthenal, etc. was a big part of this.

Basically, his life's greatest work was used to destroy the people he had come to love. His ensuing conclusion that the Lether Empire was basically evil and needed to be stopped follows naturally from this.

[Nocturnal]

I just realized I remember reading the scattered parts of Hull's story. And I remember understanding it early in the book, but once I finished it his story sorta evaporated since I was more focused on the other characters. And how wouldn't I, that was one hell of climax.

Another question:

Who/what was that thing frozen in the lake in Letheras? I think Bugg mentioned an Elder god or something.

[Gnaw]

Nocturnal, on 23 August 2012 - 09:24 PM, said:

^Oh, god... That "Legitimate rape" comment is just awful. Now I feel like more of an asshole for saying that about Seren.

Haha. Hence the Missouri question.

Spoiler

What bothered me more than that is the rest of his sentence. The man is on the Science and Technology comittee for god's sake. I really didn't think anyone could approach the level of stupidity shown by the Georgia Rep who was worried that Guam might sink. *sigh*

[Nocturnal]

Gnaw, on 23 August 2012 - 10:26 PM, said:

Nocturnal, on 23 August 2012 - 09:24 PM, said:

^Oh, god... That "Legitimate rape" comment is just awful. Now I feel like more of an asshole for saying that about Seren.

Haha. Hence the Missouri question.

Spoiler

What bothered me more than that is the rest of his sentence. The man is on the Science and Technology comittee for god's sake. I really didn't think anyone could approach the level of stupidity shown by the Georgia Rep who was worried that Guam might sink. *sigh*

Well, according to him, at Seren shouldn't be pregnant.

[Abyss]

Nocturnal, on 23 August 2012 - 09:43 PM, said:

...Who/what was that thing frozen in the lake in Letheras? I think Bugg mentioned an Elder god or something.

There are two frozen things you may be thinking of...

One was a demon Bugg's excavation crew accidentally freed. Bugg and the Jaghut Huntress re-froze it in the cave it came from.

The other is the 'forgotten river god' that the Warlock King stole from Mael's underwater garden and enslaved to use against the Letherii. Mael, the Ceda and Huntress tricked it into surfacing in the lake (the Ceda provided the bait, Mael provided the route and Huntress froze it) and then they froze it in place, taking it out of play.

[Nocturnal]

^I was thinking about the second one. Thank you.

And, of course, now that the book finally settled in I have more questions.

Firstly, who did Trull's shorning? I'm guessing that was Rhulad since Trull didn't want to let him resurrect?
And secondly, why did Turudal (Errant) poison Brys, the king and Nifadas?

[Abyss]

Nocturnal, on 27 August 2012 - 03:35 PM, said:

... who did Trull's shorning? I'm guessing that was Rhulad since Trull didn't want to let him resurrect?

Rhulad and his 'adopted' brothers, tho for more reasons than just what happened in the throneroom.

Quote

And secondly, why did Turudal (Errant) poison Brys, the king and Nifadas?

He didn't. If you think that's what happened reread the scene.

[Nocturnal]

He said he "only pushed them" since that's his aspect. Um, Hannan Mosag did it then?

[Sinisdar Toste]

he 'nudged' brys, i think, but nifidas and the king were planning to kill themselves already. brys' decision was made in a moment of lowered guard, where he thought he'd won. i suspect the errant barely needed to do anything to make brys drink.

[Nocturnal]

Right. So it was Nifadas who poisoned the wine then? Since he's the one who brought it. It makes sense. God, my brain is working terribly at times.

[ashadowbetween]

i'm a little late coming into this, but it seemed to me that Seren was rather lost right from the beginning. "If she could, she would sink into this wall of stone. To walk for eternity among those formless shapes, looking out, perhaps, every now and then, and seeing not stunted trees, moss, lichen and the occasional passer-by. No, seeing only the wind. The ever howling wind..." and this was the first chapter i think, these are not the thoughts of a happy person, then the little hope she had for Hull was taken away, then Buruk hanging himself, then the rape, it was one emotional blow after another. she was actually one of the characters i most connected with in the book, i mean, that ending, it left you raw...