[Sinisdar Toste]

Jean-Claude Van tiam, on 03 October 2012 - 11:38 AM, said:

I dislike the idea of it corrupting people and simply see it as accentuating their current traits. Scara is already incredibly ambitious and this is accentuated by his draconic blood. Although it could easily be much more straight forward in that draconic blood is powerful and simply emboldens people to act in a way they wouldnt have. In that sense it is not the choatic blood that corrupts but the power it brings the drinker that is what corrupts them.

Admittedly a minor point I just dont like the idea of people being corrupted by dragons blood on a fundamental level.

i think the experiences of the soletaken eleint liosan in tCG pretty clearly demonstrate that it is the drinking of the blood itself that causes the shift in behaviour and thought, changing them fundamentally. how quickly do those three siblings simply abandon their tiste forms? days only. aparal forge, who considers kadagar fant his lord and friend, is almost willing to attack kadagar at points.

i also feel like, as of FoD, scara bandaris has displayed little ambition. he's been forced to escort jheleck prisoners across a land struck by civil war, and when he discovers what the disbanded elements of his company have been doing he wants them hung and says he will return to sedis. granted, it could all be an elaborate cover up, but it really seems otherwise to me. there's a reason shadow exists, and it's because certain members of tiste society rejected the extremes of dark and light. you can see the beginnings already. faror hend actually thinks to herself that she wishes to walk the shadows, the verge between dark and light. that she flees from extremes. kagamandra and sharenas ankhadu run out of the chamber before syntara baptizes them with light. scara wants to return to sedis keep, stay out of the war.

draconian blood would change all that.

[worry]

All of that said (by me and by others), it may very well turn out that what happens between Scabandari and Silchas Ruin on that hill on Lether was never actually a betrayal in the first place. I would not be shocked to get that curve ball thrown our way.

[Use Of Weapons]

worrywort, on 05 October 2012 - 04:59 AM, said:

All of that said (by me and by others), it may very well turn out that what happens between Scabandari and Silchas Ruin on that hill on Lether was never actually a betrayal in the first place. I would not be shocked to get that curve ball thrown our way.

Isn't there a quote from someone in the main sequence to the effect that Ruin may well have turned his back deliberately to Scabandari in order to gain the Azath and remove himself from Menandore's viewfinder? A deliberate sacrifice of time. The quote proceeds to say something like, "More than even Anomander, Silchas Ruin played the long game: cold, draconean." I'm pretty sure it came up recently in the Tor reread. It's possible that that was Ruin's Dumbledore moment, and Scabbers plays the Snape role.

[Destiny]

Use Of Weapons, on 05 October 2012 - 10:16 AM, said:

worrywort, on 05 October 2012 - 04:59 AM, said:

All of that said (by me and by others), it may very well turn out that what happens between Scabandari and Silchas Ruin on that hill on Lether was never actually a betrayal in the first place. I would not be shocked to get that curve ball thrown our way.

Isn't there a quote from someone in the main sequence to the effect that Ruin may well have turned his back deliberately to Scabandari in order to gain the Azath and remove himself from Menandore's viewfinder? A deliberate sacrifice of time. The quote proceeds to say something like, "More than even Anomander, Silchas Ruin played the long game: cold, draconean." I'm pretty sure it came up recently in the Tor reread. It's possible that that was Ruin's Dumbledore moment, and Scabbers plays the Snape role.

Yes but didn't Ruin only do that so he'd escape the EG's wrath? I think it was because Ruin & Scabby had made too much mess coming through from KG by fighting the K'Chain. And Ruin realised the EG would come after him and kill him, so he decided to be buried under the Azath. Though I can't really explain how he knew Scabby would put him there...did he just know him that well or was it part of some kind of plan? If such a plan existed I don't know how it would benefit Scabby. He got his head smashed in and then his soul got trapped in an Azath.

[Abyss]

duhr, on 31 August 2012 - 10:02 AM, said:

When did Syntara die?

She didn't but as far as we know there's no 'Mother Light' figure in Liosan mythology as of the MBF books,
altho she does make a sideways appearance as a figure in Seerdomin and Spin's 'chess' game early in TtH.

blackzoid, on 31 August 2012 - 05:40 PM, said:

A character I'm very interested in reading about now is Scarbandari. Its odd how he comes across as one of the most likeable characters in the book.
I actually now really like him. ...

I'm similarly intrugued. This added a whole other dimension to his backstab of Silchas as well.

[Kanese S's]

She doesn't have to die to not be mentioned later. It is quite possible that Father Light is more of a figurehead and she's the "power behind the throne" as it were. I think it's an interesting exploration of a worshiper/clergy coming before a deity.

[worry]

Well she's a Mahybe right? She might have no further major role to play after transforming FL.

[Kanese S's]

I just think assuming that she's dead is prematurely jumping to conclusions.

[kingryan69]

I like that we see the actual genesis of the Tiste races, and I dont think its strange that the Liosans turn out to be haughty and arrogant to the point of almost being evil, look at it this way, if you have a group that is absolutely CERTAIN that its the good guys no matter what, how will that affect the way they act?

[Orlion]

Kanese S, on 10 October 2012 - 03:50 AM, said:

She doesn't have to die to not be mentioned later. It is quite possible that Father Light is more of a figurehead and she's the "power behind the throne" as it were. I think it's an interesting exploration of a worshiper/clergy coming before a deity.

Agreed. We only have detailed beliefs of the Andii and Edur people. The Liossan have only been encountered in the main series, and we have not had much from their point of view except that they are highly militaristic (surprise there, huh?).

[Use Of Weapons]

Destiny, on 05 October 2012 - 12:57 PM, said:

Yes but didn't Ruin only do that so he'd escape the EG's wrath? I think it was because Ruin & Scabby had made too much mess coming through from KG by fighting the K'Chain. And Ruin realised the EG would come after him and kill him, so he decided to be buried under the Azath. Though I can't really explain how he knew Scabby would put him there...did he just know him that well or was it part of some kind of plan? If such a plan existed I don't know how it would benefit Scabby. He got his head smashed in and then his soul got trapped in an Azath.

It could have been a deliberate pre-echo of Rake and Hood's agreement, but with Scabby meaning to say, 'Look, you guys, I dun killed him! I'm the good guy here, I was only going along with him to gain his trust until I could STAB STAB STAB.' But he didn't get a chance because FIST OF DEATH. And it's entirely possible Ruin could have anticipated that outcome, given what we know of him.

[Abyss]

I figured Ruin allowed himself to be Azath'd to avoid the conflict between the Tiste, their Draconic ascendents, and the world's 'native' gods, including his own conflicts with Rake that were hinted at in TtH.
The fact that this involved setting down roots, so to speak, wasn't offputting to him since as someone suggested, dragons can sit unmoving for ages - we saw in RG that they can do that even with their bodies rotting around them - and Ruin was always more draconic than most.

[Flawed]

Just finished it this morning. A lot of Waffling, a lot of really? a lot of questions answered and in true form a whole bunch of new ones created. All in all i enjoyed it. 7/10.

[Lather]

"WORSE MOMENT THAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN EPIC BUT WASN'T -
Andarist: Ahhhhhh, Enesdia omg aaaaahhhhhh this is awful!!!!
Rake: This is awful. I'm going to name my shiny new sword 'Vengeance' and go kill people for this!
Andarist: No. You have to call it 'Grief'.
Rake: That's a lame name.
Andarist: Do it or i won't talk to you ever again.
Rake: That's a shame. See ya.
Silchas: Um wtf just happened????"


<seriously belly laugh with tears squirtin outa my eyes out loud>


thankyouthankyouthankyou abysslet for this thread and your finishing post!!

haven't been here in a while but when finishing up FoD with all the questions and ah ha moments fresh in
my peabrain, i hadda come round and see what all had been said, writ, and posted. i knew i would find
fabulous theorizing and possibly some answers so thankyouthankyou again!!


loved the book. loved it.

[Migol]

Quote

Errant and Sech are Kila and Griz' kids??????? And they just killed Hood's wife!?!?!?!!!!

and

Quote

OLAR ETHIL IS ENVY/SPITE/MALICE'S MOM?!?!?!?!?! That puts an interesting twist on a bunch of things from the MBF, esp in TCG.

...these were the points where my mind was just blown.

I'm going to have to assume every character in the MBoF that didn't interact there somehow is intimately related in the past. Mogara probably is Icarium's mother (that awful hag). Korlat will be behind Hood's successful taking of the Throne of Death. Krul in female form is Arathan's mother. Why not?!!?

In all seriousness loving the books. 2 minor complaints:

1) Echoing the names thing. Why does every name have to sound like 15 other names in the same damn book. This is especially bad in this book, where we're already dealing with slightly altered names of characters and places we know.

2) Mother Dark...I just don't get her. It was a surprise to find she was just another Ascendant and not an original primordial force of the universe (IE Mael/Draconus/Krul), but I can sorta kinda deal with that, even if it throws a lot of things into question. What I find perplexing though is her actions, or lack thereof. Why are the Tiste worshipping a goddess who seems to do...nothing? Empire crumbling around her, nature dying out, people poisoning and scheming, civil war breaking out...and the one truly, super humanly capable guy (Rake) is begging her for permission to go make it better...and she waffles. Why are the Tiste so bereft and lost in later books without her? It seems like she doesn't do -anything- for them, or even for herself. I get the strong impression that she's going to sit there through the whole damn civil war, give in to the demands to marry father light, then run away crying at the end when rake gets Tiam's blood screaming "You just don't undestand meeeeeee!"

This post has been edited by Migol: 10 November 2012 - 08:32 PM

[worry]

Migol, on 10 November 2012 - 08:30 PM, said:

Why are the Tiste worshipping a goddess who seems to do...nothing?

You live on planet Earth. Do you really have to ask this?

As far as the names go, yah, having Risp, Rint, Resh, and Rise was occasionally a challenge. Not to mention Endest Silann and just plain old Silann.

[Migol]

Sure, I live on Planet earth, where Gods (whether you believe in their existence or not) have been known to perform miracles, raise the dead, create the world, and all the other stuff.

[worry]

Or, you know, causing thunder. Or being really good at tricking people. Or because wind exists. The worship of gods is predicated on their existence and their desire to be worshiped, not much else, and especially not their good behavior.

[Migol]

Sure. But again that's my point: Mother Dark doesn't show any need to be worshipped, in fact she's doing an extremely poor job of instructing her priesthood on how she wants to be worshipped.

Basically we have a Tiste woman who was a sorcerer, went off and did the wild dance with draconus on the spar of andii, and through him/chaos/both ascended into a higher level of existence. Great!...that doesn't explain why the Tiste people feel a need to worship her, or follow her lead at all. Again if she was doing what a Goddess generally would be expected to do (leading them, helping them with problems like disease/death/etc, telling them how to live), then sure. But she's just sitting there, talking vaguely and frustratingly to her worshippers on the very few chances they get to see her. The few things she has done...such as publicly take a consort, have just created problems.

-I don't get why she's being followed or worshipped, especially by intelligent people like Rake and his brothers- She has done nothing except gain in power, and does not seem to do much of anything to benefit the Tiste as a whole.

This post has been edited by Migol: 10 November 2012 - 11:41 PM

[worry]

Well she was their leader before she was granted power by Draconus. She's royalty. Now she's god-royalty. And she does have deniers, factions, discontent under her. That's kinda what the trilogy is about really, but we're just at the beginning.