[Tatterdemalion]

Yo. Been too long.

Just finished OST and, like the rest of the ICE books, I felt it was solid but not spectacular. I think Stonewielder's the best of 'em.

Here is my main problem - the main thing that I think causes issues amongst us faithful: the books can read like fanfic because they give us too much. And here's why:

It's not the writing - I think ICE's writing is totally fine, if the choices he makes are not always. Some of his prose is quite beautiful and IMO haters are just reacting to how impressive SE truly is. ICE has some good ink. It is not even how he weaves stories together, or the problems apt has pointed out about stuff happening and perspective. My main problem is that the books seem like they were written purely to appease... us!

As someone else pointed out elsewhere: Night of Knives had the Kell/Dance ascension. RotCG had the old guard and Crimson Guard. Stonewielder had the Stormwall, CG and Greymane. OST had Seguleh and Moranth. Each book seems like a fan wet dream where we learn more about ______________ cool aspect of the universe that SE used fleetingly or skimmed past. It's giving us what we want - but the problem is what the fans want is NEVER the answer (general fans, not us smarty-pants Malazan fans. But sometimes us too). The masses want details and for ALL THE COOLEST DUDES to occupy pages, but good books don't just focus on the cool. G.I.JOE wasn't ALL about Snake Eyes. Star Wars wasn't ALL about Boba Fett. Malazan shouldn't ALL be about ________________. For every Quick Ben, there must be a Kulp. These elements, though we DESIRE them, are better left on the fringe where our brains can't get to them for the same reason the Blair Witch Project was popular. Our imaginations are better than the actuality. The Old Guard in RotCG seemed... OLD! CRUMMY! EASILY DYING! The Seguleh in OST were fucking in love. We hear them speak a billion times more than ever before - and every morsel we learn, and gobble up with our hungry fan-mouths, and once digested they totally crush previous notions or possibilities about the race in question. We don't learn too much from getting more answers (as we know, ICE books are as tight-fisted with answers as Erikson's), but in fact learn too much merely from spending too much time with _______________________. It dulls the mystique. And it's SAD. It's sad that it does this because we all desperately want to know EVERYTHING about EVERYWHERE and especially Assail, and Stormwall, and Malaz, and Seguleh, and DAMNZZZZ! Everywhere. But it is not in our best interest. This works especially well in proving why so many people here WANT to love ICE's books so much.... but struggle pasts certain elements. It's because we're better off not knowing, we just can't resist.

Like a kid who ate too many Skittles because they taste amazing, only to find his mouth a shorn and puckered mess of what once could be considered taste.

This is the real issue (or yet another one) with the ICE series'. It's giving us all too much of what we want (in some cases only a skeleton-thin offering). With each one a little of the magic leaves the world, but damned if we don't want them so badly, in part because the 10 books are so un-forthcoming with truths. Maybe if ICE didn't try so hard to juggle the most precious of all the stones in the canon his stories would be less likely to offend our delicate fan-sensibilities.

Thoughts? Ideas? Skittles?

[worry]

I like Kulp =/.

[Defiance]

My problem isn't quite the same as yours. You argue that ICE gives the things we want to know too much air time. I agree with this, but for entirely different reasons.

For example, in Stonewielder we got to see the Stormriders. I was really excited about this. But guess what? The Stormriders were a real letdown. Was it because they were more awesome in my head than ICE could ever make them out to be? Not at all. My problem was that, despite being featured heavily, we weren't told a damn thing about them. Rather than giving us further insight into the world, they simply existed to tell a story. The same sort of thing holds true for the Tyrant in Darujhistan. Yeah, we can theorize about how he was a Jaghut who soulshifted into human form. Overall, though, there's just no way to know. I have no problem with guessing about certain things and making theories - SE makes us do it all the time. However, he doesn't do it with vital information such as the main plot. Yes, there are things in SE's books that can be confusing at first, but in terms of the main plot it never becomes "uh, what just happened?"

For example, imagine if the Forkrul Assail in The Crippled God hadn't had any back story to them. Imagine if all of the dead had showed up at the end of House of Chains with absolutely no prior foreshadowing. That's kind of what I feel ICE does. He writes about the things we want to know about, but he doesn't offer any sort of explanation. I'm not going to be so presumptuous as to say that it's his obligation to do so, but when we compare the number of amazing revelations in an SE novel to those in an ICE novel, it just can't compare.

[worry]

I actually think he did a good job with the Tyrant (in terms of the hints laid for his origin), but then he just made him sit in a chair all book and his motivations for that were completely opaque. So it's the opposite problem of the Stormriders, who we learn about motivation-wise but pretty much nothing origin-wise (any hints dropped had no connective tissue to other hints). I was perfectly fine with the Seguleh, who on-island obviously had more than a warrior class and weren't automatons with each other either. But I agree with others that it was kind of lame to give the only POV at Moranth Mountain to a human isolated in a cell the whole time. Then again, I don't think we've seen the last of any of them, so benefit of the doubt and all that.

[Tatterdemalion]

I think your point about the Stormriders was good - and notice I couldn't include them in my list of TMI groups above, likely for the reason stated. But I feel like getting all that juicy info you're talking about, Defiance, might have not been best for us either.

Picture the Star Wars book add-ons. SO MANY. When I was a kid I LOVED reading 'Tales from Jabba's Palace' or 'Tales of the Bounty Hunters', each taking cool background characters from the movies and writing whole stories about them. But the stories were thin because they weren't connected to the main plot on the whole, and in retrospect it was co-authors writing spurious crap about any "character" who showed up on screen for more than 3 seconds. Lucas would say "because there's so much WORLD out there!" but when he used these background aliens originally there was never any plan on them being more than extras. They AREN'T all superheroes in their own right (which those books made them out to be). Learning detailed backstories of them all took away from the world because Jabba's palace was no longer mysterious and every single outlet of the world had been explored and hollowed out (in this case) for commercial gain. So even given a good story motivation and an historic backstory, I feel like some of these ________________ are better left alone.

To me, Seguleh are far better as a mystery and so are the Moranth. Going to their island (or something) is fine, even in a POV that is a detached observer (or 'normal guy') - but it has to be quick and it has to be plot pertinent FOR THE POV. Not just to show the reader stuff they always wanted to know. Same goes for Stromriders. I LIKE that we know why they come, but still no one knows shit about them. They don't seem like a race anyone is about to get to know soon! Maybe that's why I liked Stonewielder more. The book's job is to tell a story: not to act purely as a means to learn about the Stormwall. Crimson Guard, meanwhile, I have no problem with having a book explaining them - they're not as mysterious, not as 'foreign', and they are basically bad-ass soldiers - something easily tackle-able by SE or ICE. They tackle the premise most every book. Writing about them fits. In that case, there are other problems afoot too.

Deep down, I would far rather have a Compendium Malaz than any new books. This might seem counter to what I wrote above, but it is a completely different means of getting information across than a novel. You could learn about the Seguleh without a love story between them.

[D'rek]

Tatterdemalion, on 28 July 2012 - 04:27 AM, said:

Yo. Been too long.

Just finished OST and, like the rest of the ICE books, I felt it was solid but not spectacular. I think Stonewielder's the best of 'em.

Here is my main problem - the main thing that I think causes issues amongst us faithful: the books can read like fanfic because they give us too much. And here's why:

It's not the writing - I think ICE's writing is totally fine, if the choices he makes are not always. Some of his prose is quite beautiful and IMO haters are just reacting to how impressive SE truly is. ICE has some good ink. It is not even how he weaves stories together, or the problems apt has pointed out about stuff happening and perspective. My main problem is that the books seem like they were written purely to appease... us!

As someone else pointed out elsewhere: Night of Knives had the Kell/Dance ascension. RotCG had the old guard and Crimson Guard. Stonewielder had the Stormwall, CG and Greymane. OST had Seguleh and Moranth. Each book seems like a fan wet dream where we learn more about ______________ cool aspect of the universe that SE used fleetingly or skimmed past. It's giving us what we want - but the problem is what the fans want is NEVER the answer (general fans, not us smarty-pants Malazan fans. But sometimes us too). The masses want details and for ALL THE COOLEST DUDES to occupy pages, but good books don't just focus on the cool. G.I.JOE wasn't ALL about Snake Eyes. Star Wars wasn't ALL about Boba Fett. Malazan shouldn't ALL be about ________________. For every Quick Ben, there must be a Kulp. These elements, though we DESIRE them, are better left on the fringe where our brains can't get to them for the same reason the Blair Witch Project was popular. Our imaginations are better than the actuality. The Old Guard in RotCG seemed... OLD! CRUMMY! EASILY DYING! The Seguleh in OST were fucking in love. We hear them speak a billion times more than ever before - and every morsel we learn, and gobble up with our hungry fan-mouths, and once digested they totally crush previous notions or possibilities about the race in question. We don't learn too much from getting more answers (as we know, ICE books are as tight-fisted with answers as Erikson's), but in fact learn too much merely from spending too much time with _______________________. It dulls the mystique. And it's SAD. It's sad that it does this because we all desperately want to know EVERYTHING about EVERYWHERE and especially Assail, and Stormwall, and Malaz, and Seguleh, and DAMNZZZZ! Everywhere. But it is not in our best interest. This works especially well in proving why so many people here WANT to love ICE's books so much.... but struggle pasts certain elements. It's because we're better off not knowing, we just can't resist.

Like a kid who ate too many Skittles because they taste amazing, only to find his mouth a shorn and puckered mess of what once could be considered taste.

This is the real issue (or yet another one) with the ICE series'. It's giving us all too much of what we want (in some cases only a skeleton-thin offering). With each one a little of the magic leaves the world, but damned if we don't want them so badly, in part because the 10 books are so un-forthcoming with truths. Maybe if ICE didn't try so hard to juggle the most precious of all the stones in the canon his stories would be less likely to offend our delicate fan-sensibilities.

Thoughts? Ideas? Skittles?

I disagree. I don't think ICE is doing it on purpose. I think it's just a by-product of his books coming out after most of MBotF. There lots of references in MBotF to places and things in NotME, and there are lots of references in NotME to places and things in MBotF. But since a lot of MBotF books came first, they hyped up the things that are only in NotME.

If we'd gotten books in Quon Tali, Stratem and Korel first, we'd be super excited by all the references to Onearm's Host from other Malazan forces, mysterious rumours about the remote Teblor, the mysterious Jaghut race, etc - and when all those things show up when MBotF is written after five NotME books, we'd be gushing about how SE is showing us all the amazing things that had been hinted at so deliciously by ICE.

[D'rek]

Tatterdemalion, on 28 July 2012 - 02:29 PM, said:

Deep down, I would far rather have a Compendium Malaz than any new books. This might seem counter to what I wrote above, but it is a completely different means of getting information across than a novel. You could learn about the Seguleh without a love story between them.

Eugh, I would hate that. A dictionary-like listing of the common attributes of the people in a culture? I would much rather meet the characters, hear the personal stories, see people live, love and conflict than get a dictionary of facts.

[Tatterdemalion]

Nothing great lasts forever. I'd prefer a good cap-off now to the possibility of dragging it out. Or let me rephrase: I think that might be best for the series as a whole - me? I'll read them all and enjoy them all, so maybe I prefer having more books after all. But at the expense of the art, perhaps.

When SE started GotM, ICE didn't have these all planned and then they happened to not be released until now. The ideas were floating about, but the execution waited - and IMO in waiting they fell into the pattern above: summaries of cool peoples and parts. After all, in the end, the ICE references are referencing ONE MAIN SE STORY that includes all the bits you mentioned; while SE references many races, peoples, and ICE tells a series of smaller stories about those people and areas. The SE10 are the story, regardless of when ICE's books come out, or parallel universes, and they will always be add-ons.

[Studlock]

Actually I believe the first book was written by ICE, it was RotCG and then they co-wrote GotM as a screen play. So the idea that ICE's book are a sideshow don't really stack up. I have always thought everything ICE has done has been adding up to a giant conclusion in his last book, and there has been hints throughout. Indeed this book may be the odd one out. So if ICE doesn't come through like I think he will I'd be disappointed but until then I trust him. And honestly I think a lot of people have a problem with ICE is that he doesn't give them what they want, unlike SE in which we didn't really know what was out there. Now people want the Stormriders (which I think people are writing off way to quickly, they didn't get the last piece remember?) or Greymane so when ICE story isn't about this specific people or characters people come away with negative feelings.

[D'rek]

Tatterdemalion, on 28 July 2012 - 09:41 PM, said:

Nothing great lasts forever. I'd prefer a good cap-off now to the possibility of dragging it out. Or let me rephrase: I think that might be best for the series as a whole - me? I'll read them all and enjoy them all, so maybe I prefer having more books after all. But at the expense of the art, perhaps.

When SE started GotM, ICE didn't have these all planned and then they happened to not be released until now. The ideas were floating about, but the execution waited - and IMO in waiting they fell into the pattern above: summaries of cool peoples and parts. After all, in the end, the ICE references are referencing ONE MAIN SE STORY that includes all the bits you mentioned; while SE references many races, peoples, and ICE tells a series of smaller stories about those people and areas. The SE10 are the story, regardless of when ICE's books come out, or parallel universes, and they will always be add-ons.

There is no "main story", and the closest there is to one would be all the trials of the Malazan armies, which RotCG and SW are far more related to than MT or TtH.

The 16 MBotF and NotME novels comprise many, many stories - some of them are entirely in MBotF (the Bonehunters, Lether, Mappo & Icarium, etc), some are entirely in NotME (Kyle, Kiska, the Crimson Guard and their Vow, etc), some start in one and end in another (the Tiste Liosan, Darujhistan, etc).

[Tatterdemalion]

I'll admit that one of the main purposes of Malazan is to be ongoing and cyclical in nature, but sure there is a main story. The Crippled God. Books 6-10 are about it, which is half the original series, and the previous 1-5 books are building the context for it. Compared to ICE's books which we are hoping draw to a specific conclusion while only having one carry-over character and 2 repeating characters in Kiska and Kyle... I'd say it is a huge show of faith to claim ANY ICE book is as 'central' to Malazan canon as any of the SE books. RotCG comes close because it directly deals with what happens to the Empress and the old country, but both it and OST are basically epilogues to books 6 and 8. What inquiring fans want to know so bad (see original post)... "SE/ICE... what happened to Laseen? What happened to Toc Elder? What happened to Rel and that Greymane guy and Tayschrenn????? Giving the people what we want: follow up for characters who were only important in passing to the main storyline of the Crippled God, but are awesome and still alive. OST does this too. When book 8 ended, did you feel like there were unanswered questions left in Darujistan? I didn't. Rake and Traveller had met, brawl in the streets, Kruppe vs. Pust.... they could have lived happily ever after for my part. OST was enjoyable to read to see what other adventures they get into / befall the city, but while it may be important to a cryptic over-arching plot by ICE, it remains a footnote to the SE 10.

[worry]

That might be how you see it, and a list of things you're interested in, which is fair enough, but I would warn you away from claiming it to be a universal truth.

[D'rek]

Tatterdemalion, on 30 July 2012 - 03:38 AM, said:

I'll admit that one of the main purposes of Malazan is to be ongoing and cyclical in nature, but sure there is a main story. The Crippled God. Books 6-10 are about it, which is half the original series, and the previous 1-5 books are building the context for it. Compared to ICE's books which we are hoping draw to a specific conclusion while only having one carry-over character and 2 repeating characters in Kiska and Kyle... I'd say it is a huge show of faith to claim ANY ICE book is as 'central' to Malazan canon as any of the SE books. RotCG comes close because it directly deals with what happens to the Empress and the old country, but both it and OST are basically epilogues to books 6 and 8. What inquiring fans want to know so bad (see original post)... "SE/ICE... what happened to Laseen? What happened to Toc Elder? What happened to Rel and that Greymane guy and Tayschrenn????? Giving the people what we want: follow up for characters who were only important in passing to the main storyline of the Crippled God, but are awesome and still alive. OST does this too. When book 8 ended, did you feel like there were unanswered questions left in Darujistan? I didn't. Rake and Traveller had met, brawl in the streets, Kruppe vs. Pust.... they could have lived happily ever after for my part. OST was enjoyable to read to see what other adventures they get into / befall the city, but while it may be important to a cryptic over-arching plot by ICE, it remains a footnote to the SE 10.

I could just as easily make the argument that the main plot is about the transition from the "2nd Generation" gods to mortal-ascended gods, such as Ganoes Paran, the Bridgeburners, Itkovian, everyone's favourite new Shadow gods, etc. You claim that the story of "The Crippled God" is setup in the first 5 books and fills the next 5 of MBotF, but GotM has zero mention of him, and TtH has no impact on him, either. By contrast, every MBotF and NotME book plays a crucial part in the "Godly Transition" story:

NoK - Kellanved and Cotillion become the first of the New Gods
GotM - Major part of Ganoes Paran and the Bridgeburners pre- their Ascension. The Elder Goddess Nightchill dies. The Elder God K'rul returns from Chaos.
DG - The Old God Fener descends.
MoI - The Old Ascendant Trake dies and becomes a new Old God of War. Togg & Fanderay reunite and become other Old/Ancient gods of war. The Crippled God's Pannion Domin is crushed. The House of Chains is formed.
HoC - Two of the Ancient Deragoth return (and die). The Crippled God The Old God Dryjhna's rebellion is destroyed and the goddess is killed (by the 14th, who's leader is an ally/minion of ST).
MT - The Crippled God's Edur invades Lether. The ancient Holds of Lether begin modernizing as the ice thaws, removing the last place where the Holds still have sway. The Elder Gods Errastas, Mael, Killy and Sechul Lath start becoming more active. The Old/Ancient Gods The Pack and The Seregahl return and are killed.
BH - The remaining Ancient Deragoth return. Dejim Nebrahl returns (dies). The Old God Poliel tries to wipe out much of humanity, and is killed by the New God the MotDoD. The Crippled God's minions try to usurp ST from the Shadow Throne and First Throne.
RG - The Crippled God's Lether empire is destroyed (by the 14th, who's leader is an ally/minion of ST). The Old God Fener returns. The Elder God Errastas begins plotting the return of the Elders. Icarium forges new warrens to replace the Old ones (kinda doesn't work). The Old/Elder Gods Menandore, Sukul Ankhadu and Sheltatha Lore make a play for more power and are eliminated by agents of the New Gods ST and Cot.
RotCG - The Elder God Mael restores his influence to beyond the Jhistal. Dassem begins to have to act as the New God Dessembrae - starting a faith in Stratem and appearing in that form on Quon Tali.
TtH - Hood dies, the Bridgeburners become the New Gods of Death. We see how Itkovian has become the New God The Redeemer. The New God Dessembrae kills Rake in Darujhistan. The Elder God Draconus returns from Dragnipur.
SW - The worship of the New God Dessembrae spreads through Korel, undermining the Old God The Blessed Lady, who is really a portion of The Crippled God. The Blessed Lady is destroyed.
DoD/TCG - The Elder gods, seeing the rise of the New Gods coming, try to reset things back to their time. Some of the Old Gods try to use The Crippled God's power to entrench themselves in a position of power against all others. Both plots are foiled by the New Gods (ST, Cot, MotDoD). Sechul Lath, Killy, Fener (possibly) Fanderay all die. The Crippled God is sent away, depriving the New Gods of their foreign power source. The Bridgeburners exercise their new form of Death godhood.
OST - Tayschrenn becomes T'renn, some sort of modern K'rul god? We see the possible seperation of mortal from New God via Dassem, avoiding his Dessembrae godhood.


So you see? CLEARLY the story is about the coming of the New Gods. And therefore CLEARLY all the books all fit together perfectly as one story.


Not that I actually really see it that way, but anyone can decide what they feel is "the main story". That you happen to feel that one plotline is "the main story" and that everything else is just audience pandering... well you're entitled to your opinion, but it doesn't make anyone else feel the same way, nor does it give you any credibility in second-guessing what the authors' intentions are.

This post has been edited by D'rek: 30 July 2012 - 04:49 AM

[Vengeance]

Here I always thought the story was about. Bad shit happens people die.

[Tatterdemalion]

Alright, point taken. Let's keep in mind that my first post, at least, never claimed to be universal.

I always saw the gods and their ups and downs as integral to the WORLD, not the plot/main storyline. It's like saying the story behind WW2 was about guns because they were everywhere and always evolving with technology, not Axis aggression and necessary oppression - but for fear of Godwin's law, I'll stop with that admittedly crookshank comparison there

But I suppose that's your point, in that Malazan is more about a world than a particular story. I've always explained it so to friends and such. I've preached that. And somewhere in the annals of this site you can find me defending SE's use of Bottle in TCG as part of a cyclical 'thematic' character as opposed to someone whose storyline has a distinct and critical impact.

The question, I think, comes down to this: do you take the books in with complete faith in the SE/ICE tandem and their world creation - as something outside of IRL time - or as they are: a series of books written by humans with flaws?

A believer would take all new information in stride, hold none higher than any other, and fills in the perpetual sweeping history that is their Wu with much satisfaction and always-increasing comprehension.
A skeptic would ascribe faults of the human mind and time's passage onto the author and assume this will come out in the writing, sullying a genius work in a variety of ways.

My argument above is more about the approach and mindset of the authors - and the time in which they wrote - than necessarily story-driven, I suppose. In parcel with my conclusions upon finishing OST, maybe I'm finding it harder to be in the believer camp as I had/have been for a decade or so on the basis of what I detect as to be a writing transparency and a formula (*above: ___________ awesome group backstory) that is taking me out of the world - what was once so easily immersible (and infallible, I might add. Up to book 7 I had no inklings of complaint) now irritated.

How can one know what was intentional and what was mortal flaw? The authors will tell you everything is on purpose, but it is up to us to decide.

[Sinisdar Toste]

Tatterdemalion, on 30 July 2012 - 03:00 PM, said:

The question, I think, comes down to this: do you take the books in with complete faith in the SE/ICE tandem and their world creation - as something outside of IRL time - or as they are: a series of books written by humans with flaws?

i don't see how they are mutually exclusive concepts. the shared world has existed since they were gaming in university. the books are simply natural outgrowths of that and their two personalities. they obviously have flaws, but i'm not expecting perfection.

Quote

A believer would take all new information in stride, hold none higher than any other, and fills in the perpetual sweeping history that is their Wu with much satisfaction and always-increasing comprehension.

the main thing i disagree with here is with holding no new info higher than any other. there is information we get that we later learn to be absolutely false. remember kulp telling us in DG how warrens weren't personalities? just forces and energy? wrong. that interested personality was a goddamn dragon. you have to take everything you learn with a grain of salt and you have to learn who is reliable with their information, and whether or not they're lying at that time. you definitely can't put all new info on the same level.

Quote

A skeptic would ascribe faults of the human mind and time's passage onto the author and assume this will come out in the writing, sullying a genius work in a variety of ways.

so a human mind can't produce a work of genius without sullying it with their inherent human fallibility?? i think that their creation is the height of genius, but i can still recognize that some things don't line up at all. sometimes choices they make are questionable, but overall, i cannot deny that what they have done is a daring and massive undertaking - the work of two lifetimes - and i trust nobody with it more than the men who created it.

[Tatterdemalion]

Quote

A believer would take all new information in stride, hold none higher than any other, and fills in the perpetual sweeping history that is their Wu with much satisfaction and always-increasing comprehension.

the main thing i disagree with here is with holding no new info higher than any other. there is information we get that we later learn to be absolutely false. remember kulp telling us in DG how warrens weren't personalities? just forces and energy? wrong. that interested personality was a goddamn dragon. you have to take everything you learn with a grain of salt and you have to learn who is reliable with their information, and whether or not they're lying at that time. you definitely can't put all new info on the same level.

That's not really what I meant at all. You mean in the context of the story, which, obviously, there is the truth and there are lies / human error, like Kulp not being omnipotent. I meant that when new information is given, we accept it at a level of truth equal to that which we understand as true from before. In other words, exactly what you're saying here: new concepts replace the old ones with assumed validity.

Quote

A skeptic would ascribe faults of the human mind and time's passage onto the author and assume this will come out in the writing, sullying a genius work in a variety of ways.

so a human mind can't produce a work of genius without sullying it with their inherent human fallibility?? i think that their creation is the height of genius, but i can still recognize that some things don't line up at all. sometimes choices they make are questionable, but overall, i cannot deny that what they have done is a daring and massive undertaking - the work of two lifetimes - and i trust nobody with it more than the men who created it.

Over a long period of time? Basically, yes.