[Malaclypse]

Steve's been posting some interesting essays on his site, including this gem: link

You're welcome

[wade]

The white text on a black background... My eyes >_<

[Malaclypse]

the more interesting wade-newb, on 06 July 2012 - 06:24 PM, said:

The white text on a black background... My eyes >_<

so copy and paste it into a word document and change the font colour...*sigh*

[Aptorian]

Interesting. I wonder how Erikson see's our future? I wish I could post that question as a comment. His commentary about the end of the American civilization seemed to imply that all civilizations eventually have to crumble. Where does Erikson think our civilization is heading? With the advent of ever more advanced forms of technology that will eventually let us produce synthetic food and give us something approaching "free" energy, couldn't it be that this time, this global civilization wont fall because it's become "Too big to fail"? Of course, all it takes is one super bug or a super volcano to upset everything but still.

[Aptorian]

the more interesting wade-newb, on 06 July 2012 - 06:24 PM, said:

The white text on a black background... My eyes >_<

That's actually supposed to be easier on your eyes. Are you reading the text in a very bright room?

[Malaclypse]

Aptorius, on 06 July 2012 - 06:39 PM, said:

Interesting. I wonder how Erikson see's our future? I wish I could post that question as a comment. His commentary about the end of the American civilization seemed to imply that all civilizations eventually have to crumble. Where does Erikson think our civilization is heading? With the advent of ever more advanced forms of technology that will eventually let us produce synthetic food and give us something approaching "free" energy, couldn't it be that this time, this global civilization wont fall because it's become "Too big to fail"? Of course, all it takes is one super bug or a super volcano to upset everything but still.

Well, from an archaeological perspective, civilizations are built to fail and there's nothing, NOTHING, to suggest that today's civilizations are any different, technological advances notwithstanding. I'm not going to speak for him, but the 'magic fixes' you mention are too far off to make any difference and to be perfectly honest, are only stop-gap solutions anyway. the problems are fundamental to the nature of our species. We take too much and we refuse to believe it. I believe that he believes that we will extinct ourselves by one route or another and I struggle to find hope - and that hope lies in a massive die-off, with the quickness so as to not affect other species too much - my preference would be a nano-virus that targets low forebrain activity, but I'd accept any ELE that allowed a stable population to survive. The key is it has to be quick, so that our worst tendencies aren't forced upon us.

[Aptorian]

My positive look on that scenario is that I am not planning on having kids and I will be dead or dying long before things get really, really shitty. SO BUCK UP!

My money is still on scientists creating brain up-loads and paying people to just upload and die, basically dwindling the "real life" population in a matter of generations. Of course, pigs may be bio-engineered to have wings before that happens.

[worry]

Did you read The Devil Delivered yet, Apt? I wouldn't exactly call it a prophecy for a number of reasons, but it provides at least one view SE has for the future. Obviously the specific narrative is purely fiction, and the milieu just might be fun to write in, I dunno, but the general gist of it isn't exactly implausible.

[Salt-Man Z]

That essay's actually been on his site for a couple of years now, and was (in fact) already posted in a thread you started, Mal.

This post has been edited by Salt-Man Z: 06 July 2012 - 09:18 PM

[Malaclypse]

Salt-Man Z, on 06 July 2012 - 09:14 PM, said:

That essay's actually been on his site for a couple of years now, and was (in fact) already posted in a thread you started, Mal.

Really? I amaze myself

[worry]

Past you has good taste.

[Malaclypse]

Just because I started it doesn't mean I kept track of it, you misrepresent me sir!

[Kanese S's]

Malaclypse, on 06 July 2012 - 06:52 PM, said:

Aptorius, on 06 July 2012 - 06:39 PM, said:

Interesting. I wonder how Erikson see's our future? I wish I could post that question as a comment. His commentary about the end of the American civilization seemed to imply that all civilizations eventually have to crumble. Where does Erikson think our civilization is heading? With the advent of ever more advanced forms of technology that will eventually let us produce synthetic food and give us something approaching "free" energy, couldn't it be that this time, this global civilization wont fall because it's become "Too big to fail"? Of course, all it takes is one super bug or a super volcano to upset everything but still.

Well, from an archaeological perspective, civilizations are built to fail and there's nothing, NOTHING, to suggest that today's civilizations are any different, technological advances notwithstanding. I'm not going to speak for him, but the 'magic fixes' you mention are too far off to make any difference and to be perfectly honest, are only stop-gap solutions anyway. the problems are fundamental to the nature of our species. We take too much and we refuse to believe it. I believe that he believes that we will extinct ourselves by one route or another and I struggle to find hope - and that hope lies in a massive die-off, with the quickness so as to not affect other species too much - my preference would be a nano-virus that targets low forebrain activity, but I'd accept any ELE that allowed a stable population to survive. The key is it has to be quick, so that our worst tendencies aren't forced upon us.

Yep. Of course our civilization will end. Everything ends, eventually. That's just the way of the world, and really, the universe. Nothing lasts forever.

[Aptorian]

Kanese S, on 07 July 2012 - 10:11 AM, said:

Yep. Of course our civilization will end. Everything ends, eventually. That's just the way of the world, and really, the universe. Nothing lasts forever.

Is it really inevitable? Do we have to end? I mean, as a way of life, I could foresee the US or Europe crashing hard in the wake of a natural/biological disaster and the economy collapsing, but as a Civilization? You'd need something that made a permanent and irrevocable dent in our environment and culture for us to end as a Civilization. Humanity is constantly moving closer and closer towards a global civilization. Borders are falling, economies are merging, cultures are getting assimilated.

Civilizations have fallen before but I doubt it would be easy to destroy the one we are currently living in out right. You might be able to destroy it by changing it into something else but unless you count Aliens, I don't really think there is any barbarians that can storm our civilizations gates.

[wade]

Malaclypse, on 06 July 2012 - 06:31 PM, said:

the more interesting wade-newb, on 06 July 2012 - 06:24 PM, said:

The white text on a black background... My eyes >_<

so copy and paste it into a word document and change the font colour...*sigh*

I still read it

[Kruppe's snacky cakes]

The bird was right. That was awful on the eyes.

Anyway, humanity is liable to survive somewhere between another 5,100 to 7.8 million years, according to the 95% rule.

http://en.wikipedia....J._Richard_Gott

That encompasses my lifetime, so I'm good with that.

[Kanese S's]

Aptorius, on 07 July 2012 - 12:02 PM, said:

Kanese S, on 07 July 2012 - 10:11 AM, said:

Yep. Of course our civilization will end. Everything ends, eventually. That's just the way of the world, and really, the universe. Nothing lasts forever.

Is it really inevitable? Do we have to end? I mean, as a way of life, I could foresee the US or Europe crashing hard in the wake of a natural/biological disaster and the economy collapsing, but as a Civilization? You'd need something that made a permanent and irrevocable dent in our environment and culture for us to end as a Civilization. Humanity is constantly moving closer and closer towards a global civilization. Borders are falling, economies are merging, cultures are getting assimilated.

Civilizations have fallen before but I doubt it would be easy to destroy the one we are currently living in out right. You might be able to destroy it by changing it into something else but unless you count Aliens, I don't really think there is any barbarians that can storm our civilizations gates.

Of course it will end. Everything does. Literally everything. There is no permanence in the universe. Perhaps our civilization will be replaced by another, or perhaps it will fall in some sort of huge collapse. Civilizations don't always end due to outside forces, either. At the rate we're consuming resources, we're going to screw ourselves over pretty thoroughly. But even if we pull out of that and avert that sort of catastrophe, it will eventually end.

Hell, our species will end. 99.9% of all species that have ever existed have gone extinct, and that less than a percent that haven't are pretty much just today's living species. So why wouldn't we? What reason is there to believe that we'll somehow be an exception? Chances are we'll either die out or evolve into something else, and so the species we are now will be no more.

Even our sun will die eventually, or rather, it will change into a form not suitable for life on this planet. Perhaps we'll colonize other worlds in other star systems. That's good, for a while. But in the grand totality of the universe, stars are reaching the end of their spans more quickly than new ones are forming. Eventually there will be nowhere left to go, even if we're capable of it.

Existence is temporary. Even if it is a very very long sort of temporary (then again, our sense of time is entirely subjective).

[worry]

Lies, all lies.

[Cedz]

Well this sure is a depressing discussion.

[D'iversify]

Steven Erikson said:

I worked as anarchaeologist for eighteen years

This spelling error needs to be turned into a post-modern political thesis.

I think regarding environmental disaster and the end of civilisation, it's in one sense very likely in that it's been the fate of all those preceding us - and ours is an especially unsustainable culture at that. However, I like to think we've got a similar advantage regarding this as capitalists did after Marx - namely, a strong warning about how things are scheduled for FUBAR if present conditions continue, so make adaptations to prevent such catastrophe occurring (which is what many late 19th century capitalists did by realising that a visible social conscience kept workers happy enough to put up with drudgery [a social conscience many of today's capitalists seem to have lost]). Also, as much as I am not a science evangelist, I would argue that it represents a far more flexible set of epistemologies with regards to reacting and forestalling disaster than most of the cultural and religious frameworks that preceded us, so hopefully we'll be doing something more useful than importing more stained glass for churches a la Greenlandic Vikings when the shit hits the fan. Hopefully, but I admit I'm far from certain we will...

Jared Diamond's Collapse is from what I've glanced at a nice look at exactly this issue.

This post has been edited by D'iversify: 09 July 2012 - 07:31 AM