[zalmighty]

Hello, I have noticed in SE books that Draconus is an elder god. Also, there is also mentions of him being a courtier in the 'halls of darkness' (if they be named such). We do know that he forged Dragnipur which is a warren unto itself such that it enslaves whomever it slays. So, I was wondering what is Draconus' aspect? What I mean by that is Fener is a god of war, Dessembrae, the lord of tears. So , Draconus is a lord/god of what? (Please do not comment something as cheesy as badassery) We know that Dragnipur 'bleeds' darkness. That could probably mean that Dragnipur probably is a pocket dimension aspected to darkness (probably) or it could also mean that darkness holds in check the power of all the creatures killed by Dragnipur. (Beware of what lurks in the dark , sorry about that). Where did Draconus get his power from? He is definitely not Tiste Andii, so he is not aspected to darkness (Ruin to rudd).Though this is not necessary for him to be aspected to darkness. He is draconic (read elient), so he has at least some chaos in him, as the blood of Tiam [i guess, what would the dragon of order be made of, mewonders? It cannot be chaos (blood/power/aspect of Tiamatha), as it would be ultimately be nullifying it's own existence]. He cannot be a child of Mother dark definitely. Remember, she does not have relationships with her children? He obviously has some power in him, otherwise he would have not been taken up as a consort (which means that mother dark had a physical manifestation, as opposed to the disemodied voice that we always see, awesome!!!!!). What I am probably trying to arrive at is that he probably is symbolic (a lietrally full avatar, refer Hindu myths) of Father Light. (Please correct me with an explanation, if otherwise). I say this because I cannot recollect ever meeting father light. I mean L'oric's dad is not father light, is he, as he mentions that the Liosan have got it wrong? He cannot be father shadow, as shadow is a child of light and dark.

[Aptorian]

There's a spoiler for OST in here

Spoiler

zalmighty, on 03 July 2012 - 03:50 PM, said:

Hello, I have noticed in SE books that Draconus is an elder god. Also, there is also mentions of him being a courtier in the 'halls of darkness' (if they be named such). We do know that he forged Dragnipur which is a warren unto itself such that it enslaves whomever it slays. So, I was wondering what is Draconus' aspect? What I mean by that is Fener is a god of war, Dessembrae, the lord of tears. So , Draconus is a lord/god of what?

His power one assumes is aspected to Darkness. Most likely his aspect is the Night. I have no remembrance of where I have this from, maybe OST? I believe Morn is associated with the Night in that one. Then again Morn is hanging out in the Gardens of the Moon so maybe Draconus is actually Grallin the tender of the Gardens on the Moon and his aspect is landscaping (It would certainly fit with his entrance in DOD)

zalmighty, on 03 July 2012 - 03:50 PM, said:

Where did Draconus get his power from?

Draconus is supposedly an Elemental being, so to speak an avatar of an Elemental force. So he gets his power from what he is, a manifestation of power. That power is drawn from the warren of darkness probably.

zalmighty, on 03 July 2012 - 03:50 PM, said:

He is definitely not Tiste Andii, so he is not aspected to darkness (Ruin to rudd).Though this is not necessary for him to be aspected to darkness.

You don't need to be a Tiste Andii to draw on KG. As we know from other warrens, the "dominant species or civilization" isn't necessarily the only species living in a warren, nor does it have to be the strongest one.

zalmighty, on 03 July 2012 - 03:50 PM, said:

He is draconic (read elient), so he has at least some chaos in him, as the blood of Tiam [i guess, what would the dragon of order be made of, mewonders? It cannot be chaos (blood/power/aspect of Tiamatha), as it would be ultimately be nullifying it's own existence].

I have come to wonder about that draconic aspect. Is it actually mentioned anywhere other than in the dubious draconic family tree? It would make more sense if he of all the gods had refused that temptation, obsessed as he was with keeping chaos away from darkness.

zalmighty, on 03 July 2012 - 03:50 PM, said:

He cannot be a child of Mother dark definitely.

According to "legend" the Elder Gods that Mother Dark brought with her out of Chaos when she made the world(s) were her first children. If Draconus was one of those then he is her son. But I think that is just propaganda.

zalmighty, on 03 July 2012 - 03:50 PM, said:

Remember, she does not have relationships with her children?

Are we sure the Tiste Andii are her only children? Or that they in fact were her first children? I guess we'll have to read the Kharkanas trilogy to be sure. But I suspect that she had a finger in the making of the Shake and Edur along with the Liosan.

zalmighty, on 03 July 2012 - 03:50 PM, said:

What I am probably trying to arrive at is that he probably is symbolic (a lietrally full avatar, refer Hindu myths) of Father Light. (Please correct me with an explanation, if otherwise). I say this because I cannot recollect ever meeting father light. I mean L'oric's dad is not father light, is he, as he mentions that the Liosan have got it wrong? He cannot be father shadow, as shadow is a child of light and dark.

It would explain the animosity between the Andii and Draconus but you'd think it would have been mentioned by now, not to mention it doesn't fit with his actions or his appearance or power.

This post has been edited by Aptorius: 03 July 2012 - 07:40 PM

[Salt-Man Z]

He's obviously aspected to Dark/Night. In RotCG, Denuth greets Draconus as "Consort of Dark and Suzerain of Night". And in that book he takes the side of Darkness in a clash with Osserc in a Dark-versus-Light epigraph. (And then later Heuk or whoever the KG mage is summons him.)

I've long thought of Night as being a Wu-specific version of Dark (KG), but in OST ICE started referring to KG as the Warren of Night, so who knows what the difference is, if any.

And Apt, we have seen Draconus' "Elient" form (I think in TCG) as being a vaguely dragon-shaped smudge of flying darkness. And I'd guess any animosity between Drac and the Andii would be due to his relationship with Mommy Dark.

This post has been edited by Salt-Man Z: 03 July 2012 - 06:36 PM

[Aptorian]

Salt-Man Z, on 03 July 2012 - 06:36 PM, said:

He's obviously aspected to Dark/Night. In RotCG, Denuth greets Draconus as "Consort of Dark and Suzerain of Night". And in that book he takes the side of Darkness in a clash with Osserc in a Dark-versus-Light epigraph. (And then later Heuk or whoever the KG mage is summons him.)

The problem I recall with that connection was the timeline. At that point Draconus shouldn't have been free yet and as such should not have been able to manifest any kind of power in Wu. People were theorising it could have been Rakes Ghost or maybe Andarist instead.

Salt-Man Z, on 03 July 2012 - 06:36 PM, said:

And Apt, we have seen Draconus' "Elient" form (I think in TCG) as being a vaguely dragon-shaped smudge of flying darkness. And I'd guess any animosity between Drac and the Andii would be due to his relationship with Mommy Dark.

Yeah, I know we see him veer at least twice, but! ... Did he really veer into a dragon or did he simply choose to turn into some kind of winged night monster? The description of the form he takes is not a dragon. It's more like a giant blob of winged darkness. Could be that he simply has the power and skill to use darkness as shapeshifting.

Probably just me making crazy theories but I would prefer it to the idea of Draconus being a draconean.

[worry]

We have a possible encounter with/sighting of the actual Father Light in RotCG by Skinner and Cowl, after they have their conversation with that bumbling TL foursome. It's certainly neither definitive nor satisfying, but it's there.

Also, the OST stuff should maybe be marked as Spoilers in this forum?

[Fiddler]

I'll go out on a limb here and say that Draconus aspect can be ascertained by looking at those he calls 'Brother' and 'Sister'
Sister of Cold Nights, a mysterious deity of Cold, darkness and death.
K'rul, the opener of the ways, but before that he was apparently the Lord of Shed Blood. Since people went insane and killed each other at his passing. I find it ironic that he shed his own blood to empower and allow the Warrens to be used/created.

So we've got a goddess of cold, dark and death and a God of Shed Blood, what's that leave us? The grower, the Gardener if you will.
Draconus' daughters are very nearly human, or demigods that look human at least. Despite their mother being Tiste Edur.

My theory is that Draconus is aspected to Humanity.

He has legendary cruelty and power, he enslaves mother dark in his sword 'for her own protection' and eventually dies to his own creation.

Then, through hardship and pain learns a few things about mercy, and compassion. Oddly enough, at about the same time in the books, things start looking up for a lot of characters.

Just my theory mind you, but I think Draconus is the God of Humanity and all it's myriad faces, rage, pain, compassion and hope. He's a complex character.

[Migol]

Mother Dark is often referred to as representing "Order". Darkness as well, but mainly she is the primeval force of order that opposed Chaos.

To me, Draconus would actually be an elemental representing the void, which has so far been shown mostly when discussing the chaos whorl. It's basically space, IE empty, cold vaccuum of night. And this is exactly the sort of power he seems to wield, IE the black dragon form, the black sword that annihilates things and freezes them, the pressures he exerts, etc.

[Aptorian]

Fiddler, on 03 July 2012 - 10:01 PM, said:

Then, through hardship and pain learns a few things about mercy, and compassion. Oddly enough, at about the same time in the books, things start looking up for a lot of characters.

I like this observation. But Draconus existed long before Humanity came into existence and there's nothing to indicate that he has ever changed.

Migol, on 03 July 2012 - 11:11 PM, said:

Mother Dark is often referred to as representing "Order". Darkness as well, but mainly she is the primeval force of order that opposed Chaos.

To me, Draconus would actually be an elemental representing the void, which has so far been shown mostly when discussing the chaos whorl. It's basically space, IE empty, cold vaccuum of night. And this is exactly the sort of power he seems to wield, IE the black dragon form, the black sword that annihilates things and freezes them, the pressures he exerts, etc.

This would be an interesting mythological story twist if Mother Dark had an Affair with "nothingness".

[Sinisdar Toste]

draconus' aspect is night, as in, the absence of light when the sun or suns have set. this is pretty much space, since thats the blackness between stars which we gaze upon at night. he probably took that aspect sometime during the kurald wars though, after light first came to darkness, so that doesn't explain him coming to the andii in their own form as a duke of some distant estate way back in the beginning. perhaps then he was just an embodiment of void. a consequence of MD creating the universe.

edit: before the coming of light, there were powers moving unseen in darkness, perhaps draconus was one of the most powerful of these, able to match mother dark herself in the mastery of darkness. then light came and all the divisions started, until BAM! Dragon-slaughter-orgy in the sky.

This post has been edited by Sinisdar Toste: 04 July 2012 - 03:58 AM

[Black Winged Lord]

Quote

Migol, on 03 July 2012 - 11:11 PM, said:

Mother Dark is often referred to as representing "Order". Darkness as well, but mainly she is the primeval force of order that opposed Chaos.

To me, Draconus would actually be an elemental representing the void, which has so far been shown mostly when discussing the chaos whorl. It's basically space, IE empty, cold vaccuum of night. And this is exactly the sort of power he seems to wield, IE the black dragon form, the black sword that annihilates things and freezes them, the pressures he exerts, etc.

This would be an interesting mythological story twist if Mother Dark had an Affair with "nothingness".

Well, if that was true, that would definitely add a new spin to the whole Andii preoccupation with their own depression. Mother Dark, the direct and tangible supreme being of your race leaning towards dissolution, I can see that causing a culture of ennui.

[Kanese S's]

The explanation I like best is that while Mother Dark is the goddess of pure darkness, and mother goddess to the Tiste Andii, Draconus is the god of the night, specifically, of the frightening human idea of the night, the night that things go bump in, that ghost stories always take place in, that terrifies mortals. In this I think he is somewhat aspected to humans, but also to fear in a way.

Sister of Cold Nights on the other hand I see as also a deity of night, but in a different way. If you've ever been out in the wilderness in the middle of the night, it is both beautiful and somewhat fearsome and often very, very cold. It's awe inspiring but unforgiving, so I'd say some of her aspect is the beauty of nature but also its tendency towards being overwhelming and utterly merciless.

[D'rek]

Aptorius, on 03 July 2012 - 06:50 PM, said:

Salt-Man Z, on 03 July 2012 - 06:36 PM, said:

He's obviously aspected to Dark/Night. In RotCG, Denuth greets Draconus as "Consort of Dark and Suzerain of Night". And in that book he takes the side of Darkness in a clash with Osserc in a Dark-versus-Light epigraph. (And then later Heuk or whoever the KG mage is summons him.)

The problem I recall with that connection was the timeline. At that point Draconus shouldn't have been free yet and as such should not have been able to manifest any kind of power in Wu. People were theorising it could have been Rakes Ghost or maybe Andarist instead.

Yeah, people were theorizing such things, but then people re-read the RotCG passage and noted that Jumpy hears the creaking of a wagon and chains when he stands near the figure, and someone noted a passage in TtH where someone in Dragnipur (Pearl?) notes Draconus blurring and not paying attention momentarily. So I'm pretty sure it's Draconus.

Doesn't Mallet do the same thing and show up with the dead BBs before he dies (and one of them comments he shouldn't be there yet)?

[Malaclypse]

Just you wait until you read Forge ;p

[worry]

I don't wanna wait.

[zalmighty]

Ok, after reading Aptorius' first reply, I realised that I was living merely in the 10 main books and did not consider the other books. I guess I have a lot more reading to do. I am sorry, I will not be reading the other replies as they might contain spoilers for the books that I haven't read. However, please feel free to continue the discussion. Thanks all.

[Destiny]

Malaclypse, on 04 July 2012 - 05:30 PM, said:

Just you wait until you read Forge ;p

wait, does that mean you have early access to it? Have you read it/parts of it?

[Kanese S's]

Of course he had early access to it.

[worry]

He reads the odd pages, Hetan reads the even pages, and together they torture the rest of us.

[Baaljagg]

I've always worked on the assumption that Draconus is the embodiment of chaos and void. Dragnipur holds a void within which Draconus filled with a realm he created. That's some seriously powerful shit he plays with. That's got to take more power than darkness alone provides. When he draws power it does not seem to originate from any specific warren, as if he draws upon all powers which came out of the void. When he is released and forges his new sword it seems he not only draws upon darkness alone, but ice and light too. Hence all the blinding darkness and frozen barghast

[Baaljagg]

The void is cold and dark but light also emerged from the void. Chaos itself is also the proginator of all life and the very nature of life and existence. I see him as what dark and light left behind, that he followed them out after gaining corporeality. The very essence of existence. Possibly too powerful to be contained effectively in any form permanently, even in elient form which is why his draconic form beds darkness and substance

This post has been edited by Baaljagg: 05 July 2012 - 09:34 AM