[Brujah]

I didn't contribute any of Draconus's power to him being Ancient. If you reread you'll see that. The ancient I mentioned was in two forms.
One was when talking about S Ruin and Tulas Shorn being Ancient Eleints. They were self proclaimed ancients. They used this term to define the strongest of the Eleints in terms of the Storm that was coming when Korbas was unleashed. The Ancient Eleints were far fewer and far more powerful. So actually yes, being ancient implied greater power. And in most cases in the book you'll see this.
Being ancient meant you at least had the power to live far beyond the life span of most others. Over time, in the Malazan world, time equated to gaining of power. Now let me mention again I didn't note any of Draconus power being derived from his being ancient. I only wanted to show that the two ancient Eleints highly appreciated Draconus immense power.
The only other time I mentioned Ancient, was when talking of Mother Dark and Father Light. Were not entirely sure but they are possibly the two most ancient beings, and possibly the two most powerful. Another example of lifespan equating to power.
I derived all of Draconus power based on what other beings of great power thought of him. And we have the top of the top viewing Draconus with great fear/respect/etc..
So I never implied that at all. I would even go as far as to say you're right beings aren't powerful because they're ancient, but more in my opinion they are more powerful because they are ancient. They start powerful. And over time they gain power, even if its a small amount.

And as for Karsa, I didn't want to say this because it wouldn't have sounded fair. But I'm all about Team Karsa.
I'd like to think you could pit Karsa against Draconus, Rake, Dassem, 4 Derogoth, 3 Hounds of Light, and a Cartridge in a mother fucking Pair Tree, and Karsa would destroy them all SOMEHOW - while finding a way to leave Rake last and finishing Rake by breaking his dick off in his bony black ass.

I forgot to put Dassem in my first post. Cotillon and Shadowthrone said once that Dassem would have killed them both if he thought they were the ones who sank his ship. This puts Dassem up there either on tier with Rake/Osseric/Gothos, but probably ever so slightly below them. But still over the tier with Hood.

[Aptorian]

The problem I see with the debate going on here is that you are equating "power", what ever that is, with "unbeatable-ness". This isn't a RPG game where the one with the most points in badass can't be beaten by a character with less points in badass. Anyone can kill anyone.

Most of the time in Eriksons world, when the gods clash with each other or "lesser beings" it is a physical, brute display of skill and will, very little emphasis seems to be put on the power of the being. Paran threatens Oponn, Trull is able to face down Icarium and Ruin, a soldier kills a D'ivers demon, an assassin kills Dryjna, Fiddler blows a hole in Ruins dragon form, a bole brother TKOs a Shi'gal assassin, Gruntle pins Olar Ethil, etc. All examples of lesser beings facing much more powerful beings and coming away alive.

It doesn't matter that Draconus could possible destroy a continent if he sneezes, if he comes across a pissed of soldier with a magical coin in his pocket, looking for blood, that just so happens to get in a lucky blow, Draconus could die. All the power in the world does not matter in that situation. So, if Draconus and Dassem or Tayscren and Karsa or Kruppe and a Demonic Pastry walks into a dark ally it is not certain who comes out on the other side. It's pretty much all happen stance.

[Silk]

Its the demonic pastry that walks out the other side isn't it?

[Brujah]

No I'm not trying to imply that anyone is 'unbeatable.' I would rather look at it like this. To take two people from my tiers - Osseric and Dassem.
Now Dassem is one of the harder ones to rank but I have him on tier just below the tier of Rake/Osseric/Gothos. And ill also say again that these are purely my opinions on power levels. Everyones would vary.
I'm not trying to necessarily say Osseric always kills Dassem. More like saying Osseric wins 3of5, 4of7, or 9of13, etc. That would imply Osseric being on the higher tier is more powerful, and would win more often than not. That's just how I see things. Without SE intervening, we'll never know.
We could attempt a variation of the Cage Matches. I might start a few Polls that list two characters, and let the forum choose who is more powerful. Then keep pitting everyone against each other until we have a democratically chosen hierarchy of the gods of MalazanEmpire.
Gonna go start now with Draconus vs Rake. I'll put them in the polls section.

[Kanese S's]

The answer to that is obvious. Rake. Since, you know, it actually happened.

You say that you're not saying that being more ancient means a character is more powerful... but then you go on to say exactly that. Make up your mind.

[Brujah]

Kanese S, on 26 June 2012 - 08:52 AM, said:

The answer to that is obvious. Rake. Since, you know, it actually happened.

You say that you're not saying that being more ancient means a character is more powerful... but then you go on to say exactly that. Make up your mind.

No I said I hadn't said that when you said I did. But now that you mention it, in certain cases it would prove true. Not so in others. It's not something we can be definitive about, really.
And I will stand by the fact that I believe Draconus lost to Rake the same way Rake lost to Dassem - it was planned that way. So I actually say Draconus has the very slight advantage.
I created a poll pairing these two. I will give you that the popular vote will probably rank Rake higher, if so ill go by it. I included a same tier option, too.

[Kanese S's]

On what basis? As I recall, there's some mention of Lady Envy betraying her father and that leading to his demise.

[HoosierDaddy]

Lady Envy stood by, rather than take part. Rake won because whatever.

This whole "would defeat each other" evidently was not adequately understood by some people.

Gandalf smoked Dumbledore, yo.

[worry]

I am the ultimate power.

[Votan]

Let's calm down, guys. No need to be insulting. Obviously anybody can beat anybody on any given day in Malaz land. Yet I still have faith that we are capable of looking at a beings personal power and making intelligent analysis based on it. Instead of getting hung up on thinking about someone being "unbeatable", think of it as 10 encounters if you like, and whoever would come out on top the most out of those 10 is who we consider more powerful.

[blackzoid]

Brujah, on 26 June 2012 - 09:18 AM, said:

And I will stand by the fact that I believe Draconus lost to Rake the same way Rake lost to Dassem - it was planned that way. So I actually say Draconus has the very slight advantage.

You say Draconus has the slight advantage because you "believe" that Draconus lost to Rake in a similar fashion to Rake/Daseem.
Your entire theory is based on your own made up evidence. Don't you see how absurd that is? You are starting with "Draconus is the best...because I say he is"

Draconus went through a redemptive arc by his ordeal in Dragnipur, he wasn't a nice man/god at all back in the good-old days, we have his own musings on the fact through his pov in TTH. Now unless SE changes something in the Kharkanas trilogy, we can assume that Draconus did not throw the fight. Why would Draconus want to be chained by Dragnipur at that stage? He believed that what he was doing was best for Mother Dark and he said to Paran in MOI that he thought Rake was too merciful to wield the sword. Draconus probably figured on killing loads of Ascendents with the sword for a long long time. The idea that Draconus would set out to lose to Rake makes no sense at all. Now just don't know if it was power versus power fight or if Rake stabbed him in the back or anything else. Maybe Rake did surprise Draconus when he wasn't looking, anything is possible.

As regards power levels in the series, I think we should remember Bugg's speech in DoD. And personally I think its about strength of will more than anything else.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 26 June 2012 - 01:05 PM

[D'rek]

Aptorius, on 26 June 2012 - 08:25 AM, said:

The problem I see with the debate going on here is that you are equating "power", what ever that is, with "unbeatable-ness". This isn't a RPG game where the one with the most points in badass can't be beaten by a character with less points in badass. Anyone can kill anyone.

Most of the time in Eriksons world, when the gods clash with each other or "lesser beings" it is a physical, brute display of skill and will, very little emphasis seems to be put on the power of the being. Paran threatens Oponn, Trull is able to face down Icarium and Ruin, a soldier kills a D'ivers demon, an assassin kills Dryjna, Fiddler blows a hole in Ruins dragon form, a bole brother TKOs a Shi'gal assassin, Gruntle pins Olar Ethil, etc. All examples of lesser beings facing much more powerful beings and coming away alive.

It doesn't matter that Draconus could possible destroy a continent if he sneezes, if he comes across a pissed of soldier with a magical coin in his pocket, looking for blood, that just so happens to get in a lucky blow, Draconus could die. All the power in the world does not matter in that situation. So, if Draconus and Dassem or Tayscren and Karsa or Kruppe and a Demonic Pastry walks into a dark ally it is not certain who comes out on the other side. It's pretty much all happen stance.

Yup! Which is why Errastas wins overall, because he can stay hidden away and nudge your destiny so a pot falls on your head, or the arrow of a broken Awl warrior goes straight into your brain...

[Migol]

How in blazes has Icarium not come into this discussion yet?

If there's any "ultimate" power in Wu, it's him. He's left civilizations in ashes for millenia and noone's been able to stop/avenge him. The elder gods are too scared to cross him (see errastas), it's believed by the FA that he can take down the Otataral Dragon AND be a balancing force to force a truce, with all the dragons that came from Starvald Demelain. The AZATH is afraid of him...and they're the weapon of last resort for order against threatening powers. He's described as being an indestructible portal to chaos itself, so in order to destroy him, you have to destroy chaos...good luck fighting against a fundamental physical constant of the universe

[worry]

Aw, but he's such a sweetie pie!

[Otataral Toblakai]

Ill have to second Icarium. I also seem to notice a more patriarchal view of everything and so ill have to rank Mother Dark, Tiam and Olar Ethil up their. As for those pitting a Rake vs Osseric, refer to one of ICE's books when Osserc + Shadowthrone + Cotillion + Dassem meet and what Osserc says - one of the most badass moments of that novel. Ill write its name once I remember which.

[Cyclorrhapha]

Otataral Toblakai, on 07 August 2012 - 09:38 AM, said:

Ill have to second Icarium. I also seem to notice a more patriarchal view of everything and so ill have to rank Mother Dark, Tiam and Olar Ethil up their. As for those pitting a Rake vs Osseric, refer to one of ICE's books when Osserc + Shadowthrone + Cotillion + Dassem meet and what Osserc says - one of the most badass moments of that novel. Ill write its name once I remember which.

That would be Return of the Crimson Guard. Never been much of an Icarium fanboy but yeah him in hulk smash mode >>> anyone else imo.


Still would like to see more of him in the upcoming Toblakai trilogy but think SE said that he's pretty much done with his story.

[Primateus]

Cyclorrharpha, on 10 August 2012 - 01:30 AM, said:

Otataral Toblakai, on 07 August 2012 - 09:38 AM, said:

Ill have to second Icarium. I also seem to notice a more patriarchal view of everything and so ill have to rank Mother Dark, Tiam and Olar Ethil up their. As for those pitting a Rake vs Osseric, refer to one of ICE's books when Osserc + Shadowthrone + Cotillion + Dassem meet and what Osserc says - one of the most badass moments of that novel. Ill write its name once I remember which.

That would be Return of the Crimson Guard. Never been much of an Icarium fanboy but yeah him in hulk smash mode >>> anyone else imo.


Still would like to see more of him in the upcoming Toblakai trilogy but think SE said that he's pretty much done with his story.

Where, exactly, in Crimson Guard is it that they meet?, what page? (roughly)

[Cyclorrhapha]

Primateus, on 14 August 2012 - 09:33 AM, said:

Cyclorrharpha, on 10 August 2012 - 01:30 AM, said:

Otataral Toblakai, on 07 August 2012 - 09:38 AM, said:

Ill have to second Icarium. I also seem to notice a more patriarchal view of everything and so ill have to rank Mother Dark, Tiam and Olar Ethil up their. As for those pitting a Rake vs Osseric, refer to one of ICE's books when Osserc + Shadowthrone + Cotillion + Dassem meet and what Osserc says - one of the most badass moments of that novel. Ill write its name once I remember which.

That would be Return of the Crimson Guard. Never been much of an Icarium fanboy but yeah him in hulk smash mode >>> anyone else imo.


Still would like to see more of him in the upcoming Toblakai trilogy but think SE said that he's pretty much done with his story.

Where, exactly, in Crimson Guard is it that they meet?, what page? (roughly)

Near the end of chapter V of Book II The Eternal Return.

[Primateus]

Thanks, found it.

But to each his own, I suppose. Cool moment, but not really that badass in my opinion.

I agree with whoever mentioned Mael that he would probably be among the very highest in terms of sheer raw power if we consider people dying in the oceans as a power source. Which I think we do, because blood = power!

[Luzburg]

The Bole Brothers