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Akhrast Korvalain, K'chain, FA, Mother Dark, Korabas... Rate Topic: -----

#1 User is offline   Jorram 

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 06:54 PM

I did some search on the forums but since the quotes that build up this issue are so convoluted and dispersed throughout the books, it's easy to assume the whole mess is kinda hard to even formulate a question about.

But in short, there is a lot of confusing information about just whose warren Akhrast Korvalain is and what is the exact relationship between the FA and the Kchain.

+ Akhrast Korvalain is first mentioned by Quick Ben to be the warren of the FA. Apparently it has to do with the power of the voice.
+ There is an extremely confusing quote by Brys, hearing a story about one of his soldiers in DoD, about Akhrast Korvalain being the warren of the K'chain che'malle and somehow responsible for what happened in the Glass Desert
+ More trustworthy sources (Badalle...) let us know that Akhrast Korvalain was indeed responsible for the foul-up in the GD but at the hands of the FA who slew their god

To this point it seems as though AK is, after all, the warren of the FA and the Brys story is just some retold lie, as SE has used a lot and more in the series (e.g. Edur mythology).
However, more confusion ensues.

+ In MT, Fear connects the Kashchan (Kchain) warren to the "sounds that bind everything". We naturally assumed this to mean gravity, because of the Sky-keeps - which to be accurate the KCCM never had until they resurrected the Nah'ruk who was not at all magical, hence the skykeeps have nothing to do with Kchain magic anyway. In light of the above though, it wouldn't be too much of a leap to assume that the Kchain warren is actually connected to sounds => hence voice.
+ In TCG we witness the thoughts of one of the Pures (either Reverence, or the chick that got bit off by Hood) - an apparently ancient and knowledgeable entity - basically spelling out that the FA need to "wrestle Akhrast Korvalain back from the Kchain" or something to that effect.

It becomes more convoluted. Was AK some sort of a battlefield between the KCCM and the FA? Are they related in any weird way? We know KCCM are from space (by Osserc and by Kalyth/Gunt Mach) and not of Wu. And thats pretty much all we know. It doesn't seem to have anything to do with AK.

Some more confusion relates to two specific events connected to the KCCM:
+ Their binding of Mother Dark by somehow introducing what seems like entropy in the world, according to Fear in MT.
+ They are "reviled" for revealing the face of that "other" - Korabas, the anti-T'iam, the antithesis of life (Sag'Churok in DoD)

Now, the two MIGHT be connected. Entropy is connected to Otataral at least in one instance - at the hands of Spite in the prologue to BH.
It seems a viable explanation that what the KCCM did was somehow bring Korabas into existence, thus appointing the eventual end of the Universe as some sort of a twisted revenge by the last crazied Matron at MD for the Tiste invasion on Wu in which she had no part whatsoever.

Which is where a certain quote from TCG comes into play (either in Korabas POV or by someone thinking about her, maybe Silchas), basically saying that Korabas was sort of "chosen" among the trueblood Eleint to become the Otataral Dragon and it is heavily implied that this happens after K'rul's Dragon deal - an event apparently a lot after the KCCM vanished from history.

My head kind of hurts.
I know there is little and less information to connect the dots but couldn't SE have at least not made it so contradictory... ?

p.p. I'm not even getting into the fact that Kilava know shit and less about the K'chain in the MOI prologue, while Tool asserts both races warred against the FA at virtually the same time and clearly knew them...
p.p.p. Speaking of Korabas, Silchas takes Ryadd somewhere to "show him they shouldn't stop the EG from freeing Korabas". Huh?

This post has been edited by Jorram: 21 May 2012 - 08:52 PM

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#2 User is offline   Kanese S's 

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 09:58 PM

This should be interesting. I have no answers for you, but am intrigued.
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#3 User is online   worry 

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 10:11 PM

You broke my brain.
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#4 User is offline   Ulrik 

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 02:23 PM

reboot...reboot...reboot...reboot...
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#5 User is offline   Geer 

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 04:25 PM

"Sound" does indeed seem to be a common theme running through the FA, Akhrast Korvalain, some branches of the science practiced by the KCM. Maybe in the way that light is the common theme running through the Tiste Andii, Edur and Liosan.
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#6 User is offline   gandrin 

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 06:25 PM

This reads like a conversation between Kruppe and Bugg if nobody else was listening and there were unlimited donuts.
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#7 User is offline   Zenstrive 

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 03:25 AM

Sound is wave,
Light is wave,
and they all invaded Wu in one time or another.

Alright, my mind broke already...
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#8 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 02:46 PM

 Jorram, on 21 May 2012 - 06:54 PM, said:

+ In MT, Fear connects the Kashchan (Kchain) warren to the "sounds that bind everything". We naturally assumed this to mean gravity, because of the Sky-keeps - which to be accurate the KCCM never had until they resurrected the Nah'ruk who was not at all magical, hence the skykeeps have nothing to do with Kchain magic anyway. In light of the above though, it wouldn't be too much of a leap to assume that the Kchain warren is actually connected to sounds => hence voice.


Who ever said the Nah'ruk were not at all magical? In fact, there is a quote somewhere that specifically says the (resurrected) Nah'ruk had magic, and wouldn't give control of it to the Matrons.


 Jorram, on 21 May 2012 - 06:54 PM, said:

+ In TCG we witness the thoughts of one of the Pures (either Reverence, or the chick that got bit off by Hood) - an apparently ancient and knowledgeable entity - basically spelling out that the FA need to "wrestle Akhrast Korvalain back from the Kchain" or something to that effect.


Okay, so AK was used and/or contested by both the K'Chain and FA. I have no problem with that.


 Jorram, on 21 May 2012 - 06:54 PM, said:

+ They are "reviled" for revealing the face of that "other" - Korabas, the anti-T'iam, the antithesis of life (Sag'Churok in DoD)

 Jorram, on 21 May 2012 - 06:54 PM, said:

Which is where a certain quote from TCG comes into play (either in Korabas POV or by someone thinking about her, maybe Silchas), basically saying that Korabas was sort of "chosen" among the trueblood Eleint to become the Otataral Dragon and it is heavily implied that this happens after K'rul's Dragon deal - an event apparently a lot after the KCCM vanished from history.


Korabas becoming an Otataral-aspected Dragon does not need to have occured at the same time the K'Chain "revealed the face of that other". The old K'Chain Che'malle, being major supporters of everything being balanced, may have "revealed" the anti-magic aspect without it being personified in Korabas, yet. It would actually make a lot of sense that things used to be quite different amongst the dragons, given the stories of people sexing Tiam and the modern T'iam being a collection of all the dragons...


So, one possible way things happened, chronologically:

-K'Chain Che'malle are chillin' on Wu, dragons are chillin' in SD and taking vacations to other realms, Tiam is a skanky ho
-MD turns away
-Nah'ruk Uprisings start
-Tiste invasions start [approx 299 000 years before Burn's Sleep]
-K'Chain are pretty much wiped out. Last Matron uses a ton of magic to create a powerful Aspect of Dissolution, which defies magic, destroys life and will eventually erode the universe
-Things kinda sit like that for a long while. As a result of the Dissolution, Chaos chases and gradually eats away at the Ordered aspects
-To combat Chaos, Draconus creates Dragnipur (in Void form)
-(A long while later, and who knows what happens in the interim) Rise of Humanity, cementing of Aspects into Holds
-Fall of the Crippled God [approx 99 000 years before Burn's Sleep]
-K'rul creates the Paths
-Draconus finalizes turning Dragnipur into a sword
-K'rul, realizing the need to formalize the Dissolution aspect into his Blood Shaping, has Korabas become the Otataral Dragon
-Korabas is chained by other Eleint (mostly Soletaken)
-the books happen


Not perfect, I know, particularly in that it has K'rul shaping the Paths post-Sundering, but it's just an example idea thingy


 Jorram, on 21 May 2012 - 06:54 PM, said:

p.p. I'm not even getting into the fact that Kilava know shit and less about the K'chain in the MOI prologue, while Tool asserts both races warred against the FA at virtually the same time and clearly knew them...






 Jorram, on 21 May 2012 - 06:54 PM, said:

p.p.p. Speaking of Korabas, Silchas takes Ryadd somewhere to "show him they shouldn't stop the EG from freeing Korabas". Huh?

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
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#9 User is offline   Jorram 

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 07:58 AM

 D, on 23 May 2012 - 02:46 PM, said:


Who ever said the Nah'ruk were not at all magical? In fact, there is a quote somewhere that specifically says the (resurrected) Nah'ruk had magic, and wouldn't give control of it to the Matrons.


I'm not sure but it's pretty much wedged in my mind. Could it have been Kallor in MOI? They wouldn't give their minds to the Matron to control but I think it's been mentioned at least a couple of times that they were a technical breed who worked Machinery and Order and did not meddle with magics.

Or i might be wrong >.<


Drek said:


Okay, so AK was used and/or contested by both the K'Chain and FA. I have no problem with that.



Neither do I, but it's worth noting if this is the case since it leads to interesting repercussions
Did the KCCM not have a birth warren of their own, usurping the FA one upon landing on Wu? We haven't seen any other example of warren theft apart from the Emurlahn case and thats always been special. It even sounds weird, granted that birth warrens are supposed to be aspected to a certain species (numerous mentions throughout the series). KCCM and FA seem unlikely to have evolved together from the same species due to the cosmic arrival of the former and the clear descent from Sechul Lath / Kilmandaros of the latter. It's still pretty messed up and while I agree it's a discardable question given the very few canon information available, it's interesting to me why trigger a Checkov gun like that without using it up.


 Drek, on 21 May 2012 - 06:54 PM, said:



Korabas becoming an Otataral-aspected Dragon does not need to have occured at the same time the K'Chain "revealed the face of that other". The old K'Chain Che'malle, being major supporters of everything being balanced, may have "revealed" the anti-magic aspect without it being personified in Korabas, yet. It would actually make a lot of sense that things used to be quite different amongst the dragons, given the stories of people sexing Tiam and the modern T'iam being a collection of all the dragons...


So, one possible way things happened, chronologically:

-K'Chain Che'malle are chillin' on Wu, dragons are chillin' in SD and taking vacations to other realms, Tiam is a skanky ho
-MD turns away
-Nah'ruk Uprisings start
-Tiste invasions start [approx 299 000 years before Burn's Sleep]
-K'Chain are pretty much wiped out. Last Matron uses a ton of magic to create a powerful Aspect of Dissolution, which defies magic, destroys life and will eventually erode the universe
-Things kinda sit like that for a long while. As a result of the Dissolution, Chaos chases and gradually eats away at the Ordered aspects
-To combat Chaos, Draconus creates Dragnipur (in Void form)
-(A long while later, and who knows what happens in the interim) Rise of Humanity, cementing of Aspects into Holds
-Fall of the Crippled God [approx 99 000 years before Burn's Sleep]
-K'rul creates the Paths
-Draconus finalizes turning Dragnipur into a sword
-K'rul, realizing the need to formalize the Dissolution aspect into his Blood Shaping, has Korabas become the Otataral Dragon
-Korabas is chained by other Eleint (mostly Soletaken)
-the books happen


Not perfect, I know, particularly in that it has K'rul shaping the Paths post-Sundering, but it's just an example idea thingy



This is actually pretty awesome as a timeline :) i cant find any flaws in it. Kudos!
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#10 User is offline   HiddenOne 

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 02:19 PM

D'rek has been known to provide timely info from time to time.



If we're looking at the K'chain as invaders from space/dimensions, it shouldn't be too hard to imagine a situation where they arrive and take control of AK. It could have been a new discovery for them, or a means of moving closer to the source of power they had already been looking into.
HiddenOne. You son of a bitch. You slimy, skulking, low-posting scumbag. You knew it would come to this. Roundabout, maybe. Tortuous, certainly. But here we are, you and me again. I started the train on you so many many hours ago, and now I'm going to finish it. Die HO. Die. This is for last time, and this is for this game too. This is for all the people who died to your backstabbing, treacherous, "I sure don't know what's going on around here" filthy lying, deceitful ways. You son of a bitch. Whatever happens, this is justice. For me, this is justice. Vote HiddenOne Finally, I am at peace.
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#11 User is offline   Gaeb the Jhag 

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 05:33 PM

the KCCM did take over AK from the FA.

the whole nar'uk uprising was long over before MD even ascended. Remember that at the time of FOD. Jaghut were free, and had recently ended their own civilizations. Long before that KCCM were the dominant species, and treated jaghut like as slaves (its said that everythign the tyrants did to the imass the KCCM had done to them long before)

the FA had recently taken control over it again prior to the books, one of them mentions how good it was to have it back again clean.



the timeline should go (grouped per time period)

KCCM do a ritual that created entropy, the universe is slowly winding down.
KCCM take AK
KCCM create nah'ruk, use Jaghuts as slaves
Eres'sal runs around making bonecaster monkeys, Thel Akai, etc.

Nah'ruk revolt, KCCM wipe each other out, one of the last matrons does the ritual that creates the rift at morn. (i think they say that rift was caused by the civil war, if not then it was in a war with the tistii down below)


KCCM go in hiding,
jaghut rise up and become a great civilizations
Tistii, imass, forulkans, jeck show up, forulkans are FA that dont have as much power since it was stolen.
MD Ascends with the help of draconus
Jaghut split up

FOD starts.

(300,000 years before burns sleep)
Tistii invades Wu, kills most of the remaining KCCM in big battle

FA kill their god, drain him of power, creates glass desert

(100,000 years before burns sleep)
fall of cripple god.

This post has been edited by Gaeb the Jhag: 24 March 2015 - 05:47 PM

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#12 User is online   worry 

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 09:33 PM

You shouldn't be making any mention of FOD or the information therein in TCG forum.
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#13 User is offline   Whisperzzzzzzz 

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Posted 25 March 2015 - 01:02 AM

 worry, on 24 March 2015 - 09:33 PM, said:

You shouldn't be making any mention of FOD or the information therein in TCG forum.


Yes, Gaeb, please be wary of posting spoilers in the wrong forum. That said, I do like your timeline. It makes a lot of sense!
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#14 User is offline   Kellanved's shadow 

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Posted 09 April 2016 - 02:24 AM

name='Jorram' timestamp='1337626484' post='962090']

Quote

+ Akhrast Korvalain is first mentioned by Quick Ben to be the warren of the FA. Apparently it has to do with the power of the voice.
+ There is an extremely confusing quote by Brys, hearing a story about one of his soldiers in DoD, about Akhrast Korvalain being the warren of the K'chain che'malle and somehow responsible for what happened in the Glass Desert
+ More trustworthy sources (Badalle...) let us know that Akhrast Korvalain was indeed responsible for the foul-up in the GD but at the hands of the FA who slew their god

Brys is actually having a memory from the God of the FA.


Quote

'there was a god once... I know its name but that isn't particularly relevant now. What is relevant is were it dwelt: In the lands we now call the wastelands. It lived there and it died there. its life was stolen from it bay a force, a powere coming from the K'Chain Che'Malle- a civilization, by the way, that I had never heard of, but in that god's memories there are the name itself and scattered... Images." pg1147 DoD

This post has been edited by Kellanved's shadow: 09 April 2016 - 02:25 AM

"I walked this land when the T'lan Imass were but children. I have commanded armies a hundred thousand strong. I have spread the fire of my wrath across entire continents, and sat alone upon tall thrones. Do you grasp the meaning of this?"
"Yes" said Brood , "you never learn".
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