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Publishing To self-publish or not - experiences?

#1 User is offline   Tenaka Khan 

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 03:12 PM

G'day all,

Long time since I have posted anything around here, but with my first novel crossing the 200k word barrier and the end in sight, I have started to turn my thoughts towards how to get it published once I am done (fingers and toes crossed).

So here already a couple of the most burning questions from my side then:

- is there anyone on the boards with experience either in self-publishing or publishing with an editor who would care to share?
- being intrigued by the idea and growth of the self-publishing market I still remain somewhat hesitant - is there any danger of damaging your chances to be picked up by a big publisher going down the route of self-publishing your work first?

Well, there are hundreds more question vying for attention in my head (protection of IP, agents, etc.) but I would already like to open the discussion with these initial ones.

Any advice, input, useful links or other helpful comments would be much appreciated B)

Cheers, TK

This post has been edited by Tenaka Khan: 01 April 2012 - 03:13 PM

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#2 User is offline   Use Of Weapons 

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 03:31 PM

I recommend reading the following series of blog posts by Patricia Wrede, about the business of writing. They're divided into various sections, and are a really useful guide to the industry. The first one is an introduction: http://pcwrede.com/b...g-introduction/.

In general, I would say that if you want to get the widest readership, you will only self-publish if you have exhausted all traditional options first -- and that means being prepared to get lots of rejections for lots of reasons, only a minority of which will be that your novel isn't good enough. There are lots of sites offering advice online, so caveat emptor. I'd recommend checking out some of the posts on publishing on the Google groups archive of rec.arts.sf.composition.

If you do choose to go down the self-publishing route, traditional publishers will in general consider that first publication, and will therefore not pay you for first publication rights (which are where authors generally make the most money in advances / royalties). So be very cautious. And avoid PublishAmerica -- they have a terrible reputation.
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#3 User is offline   Tenaka Khan 

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 03:40 PM

Thanks a lot for the quick reply and advice, UOW B)

Just added the blog you pointed out to my to-read list.

I guess one of the main things that draws me towards self-publishing is the idea of getting my work out there. Plus, I have read some testimonials where first time authors manage to build a fanbase using self-publishing which then allowed them to garner interest and find a better deal with real publisher based on the evidence that there was a market for them (Michael J. Sullivan to cite on example). Only a few lucky cases or a valid business model/approach?

Looking forward to more views on the topic.

This post has been edited by Tenaka Khan: 01 April 2012 - 03:40 PM

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#4 User is offline   JLV 

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 04:10 PM

The problem with self-publishing is that anyone can do it. So it would be a challenge to put yourself ahead of the rest. It's just like the traditional publishing route in that way, your book can be utterly fantastic, but luck can play a big part of whether or not you get picked up (or in the self-published route, make sales). It helps if you have a popular blog or other such medium. There are a few youtube people out there who have used their popularity to push their books.

You can do it, but as UoW said, best to exhaust the traditional routes.

Also, congratulations on the impending finish! That's not something that's easy to do.
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#5 User is offline   Use Of Weapons 

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 05:24 PM

And if you want to get your work out there, it would be a lot cheaper to do so online than to self-publish. The only reason to self-publish, IMO, is if your novel has an extremely niche potential market, or to see your novel actually in physical form as a book. And that's the reason they're called 'vanity presses'. Far better to send your novel to publishers/agents and potentially actually get some money, rather than forking out your own money first.

P.S. Any publisher which asks you for money up front is a SCAM, and should be avoided. Money flows from publishers to authors, never in the other direction.
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#6 User is offline   Tenaka Khan 

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 07:10 AM

Thanks for your comments/counsel.

I checked out Patricia Werde's blog and it is an interesting and educational read indeed.

I may have not been very precise (bodes well for my writing :p) in my initial post. When I refer to self-publishing I am thinking strictly in the e-book format/online as the print self-publishing does seem to have some ROI discrepancies plus I'll have to get a day job again once I am done, so will not have really have the time to go out and promote the work in physical form.

Also given the above (ebook route) I was thinking about setting up a website to promote my work (my professional background actually lies in online marketing). Still, there are many out there and it might not be easy getting heard above the din.

Does this (i.e. ebook approach) change your advice in any way or would you still recommend the traditional publisher/agent route? And if so, do you have any ideas on how to find a reputable agent?

PS: @JLV - thanks, closing in on the end feels good, even though there are still more than 100k words left to write, but I know where I am going and am looking forward to tie things up neatly (and spectacularly as I hope) :p
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#7 User is offline   Isa 

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 02:16 PM

First, congrats on the novel!

I would still say try to land an agent/publisher. It doesn't cost anything and even if all you get is rejection slips, if you're lucky a few of them might be personalized with suggestions for improvement. Not saying they're always right, but they know the market (one should hope). This would probably take some time as it is usually not recommended to have more than one hook in the water, but I'm going to assume you've spent a fair amount of time writing the book so maybe it's worth the wait.

A few tips;

Research your market. In term of agents, one way to go is simply to look at agents representing published authors with novels similar to yours. If you're writing genre fiction an agent who's already in the loop would probably be more likely to agree to represent fantasy, for example, than an agent primarily representing crime fiction authors. That said, it might be easier to get a 'new' agent. Agent directories can be found online but dodge anyone charging a fee to read a sample. They're probably not ALL a crooks, but better safe than sorry.

Having an agent is probably a good idea since there are publishers that won't consider unrepresented authors, but if you have a hard time finding an agent and want to contact a publisher directly, research, again, is a very good thing.

Get your formatting right, different publishers will likely have different preferences (which can usually be found online). If they really love your book, they'll be unlikely to turn it down because you have not used their preferred spelling for a certain word, but a nice presentation should not be underestimated.

Write a damn good cover letter. Also, publishers may have specific instructions for new submissions, be sure to research this before submitting.

This post has been edited by Isolde: 02 April 2012 - 02:20 PM

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#8 User is offline   King Lear 

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 07:19 AM

Depending where you are having an agent is a must. I think it's practically impossible to get publishers to look at unsolicited manuscripts in the US or UK.

If you're determined to go the self-publishing route, I believe Amazon have a ebook self publishing system; it's not perfect but you won't get scammed at least, and some people have made money from it. Such as Amanda Hocking, although, like print books, for every success story there's a large number of less successful ones as well.

I agree with the others, find a publisher if you can. If not, I suggest you take a look at the self published ebooks and compare them to the ones that come through the publishing companies. You might want to look into getting a copy editor, and before that possibly even a manuscript assessor (who will be able to tell you if there are any problems with the text and possibly a bit about the market niche it fits into as well). Unfortunately you'll have to pay for their services, but the trick with self publishing is that there's a lot of behind the scenes stuff that is a lot easier to do within a publishing company, like proper editing and formatting the ebook, which is sort of invisible when it's done right, but readers really notice when it's gone a bit wonky.

Congratulations on your book, and all the best with getting it published :p
*Men's Frights Activist*
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#9 User is offline   Tenaka Khan 

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 09:00 AM

Thanks for your replies, advice and good wishes Isolde and King Lear, 'tis much appreciated.

It is interesting to see that your advice all points in the same direction, i.e. trying the traditional publisher route first, which is making me doubt my conviction that self-publishing via ebooks first is the right way to go. Guess I'll have to work on my patience a bit as it is true that first trying to find a publisher probably makes more sense. Then, if that does not work, the ebook release is always there as a possibility.

Guess what got me to shy away from trying the publishing route first (aside from patience) is the money involved. I'll explain - having taken a sabbatical to fully concentrate on completing my first novel I have discovered that this is truly what I want to do for a living (hoping that I got the actual talent to do so). Following some research I found that advance payments for first time authors are normally in the $10k-$30k range for a first novel, which, let's face it, is not going to be enough to allow me to take more time off to write a second one. The only way to go would be to succeed in selling not just the first book but the series (planned at 7 books atm), but then chances for that are probably quite slim. That is why I thought garnering some attention via the ebook route would facilitate it (if the ebook sold correct numbers of course).

But I can see the validity of your points, cheers.

... and yep, I am an ambitious young man :p



Do any of you have experience in getting published? Would be interesting to learn more from someone who has succeeded in going that route.

It is time to get back to writing, chapter 18 beckons...
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#10 User is offline   King Lear 

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 09:19 AM

Sorry, I'm on the other side, I've just about finished the first quarter of a pg-dip in Publishing. But, I'll give you a heads up, ebooks and self publishing makes publishers nervous and the industry is going through some fairly major changes, so my information may be slightly skewed at this point. I suggest you keep investigating both avenues; the lady in the link I posted ended up getting a publisher because she self-published. I think the fact that you've got a marketing background may give you a bit of heads up over other people who are self publishing. I guess my advice to you would be to do as much research as you can about it.

And good for you for following what you want to do

Keep us updated about the book, won't you? :p
*Men's Frights Activist*
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#11 User is offline   Fist Gamet 

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 04:23 PM

Another link thay may help

http://www.grosvenor...book.php?x3=tdr

:p
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#12 User is offline   Tenaka Khan 

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 01:31 PM

@KL: Thanks, I can see that you may have another view on things from behind a publisher's desk.

@FG: Thanks for the link, there are some interesting bits (marketing, cost&royalties) but the printed self-publishing route still ranks last on my list of priorities. Unless there is a strong case to be made for the latter?

I seem to remember you are writing quite a bit as well, no? Where do you stand with it all if you don't mind me asking?
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#13 User is offline   Fist Gamet 

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 09:27 AM

Well remembered. Yes, I tried to get published a few years back. I purchased the Writers and Artists Yearbook, as advised, and followed the advice on submissions etc to various agents. I think, iirc, I received two or three replies (from maybe fifteen submissions) over time. It was pretty clear that they hadn't even read my submissions.
Then last year I ventured into the short story market following completion of a Creative Writing course at the Open Uni. I had a lot of excellent feedback and support from classmates and my tutor who felt my work was of a high standard. Truth is, I have worked hard at this for about twenty years and I have become a fairly good writer. Still, from the few replies I received, again there was no interest.

It is very difficult to break into this business. I know I have read a lot of published work that, imho, simply is not as good as my own. Please don't think I am blowing my own trumpet here, I simply wish to make the point that quality is not the primary concern for agents or publishers. They are in the business of selling and taking the very minimum of risks.

Personally, I think I may go down some route of online serials or self-publishing at some point. I am becoming more convinced that you need to be more creative and innovative to get your work out there, and we need to get beyond this idea that we somehow require the validation of agents and publishers whose business is making money.

I wish you good luck.
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#14 User is offline   Use Of Weapons 

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 11:11 AM

Whereas I have a good friend who is a freelance editor, edited the eBook edition of Brandon Sanderson's Mistborn trilogy, and has contacts at Gollancz and has mentioned me to them. It's all about who you know :-D (Course, you still need to be good.)
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#15 User is offline   Anomander Morg 

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 11:44 AM

For advice on self-publishing, Dean Wesley Smith's blog is an excellent source of information based on both his and his wife's expreiences in the field.

I followed his advice and my first novel is sitting on Amazon's website for the Kindle.

For a time I thought of going down the route of seeking a publisher, but in the end I used some good first readers and a family member who is a retired teacher as an editor and took the plunge. Having a book finished and for sale with a series of good reviews will bring publishers to your door, it is free advertising for you and it is good to let them do the work.

I am just doing this as a hobby, writing a few hours per week where I can fit it in and am aiming to get two books published each year. The effort to get a book ready, once you have completed your manuscript, for publishing is ridiculously easy and the cost to me so far has been a few pounds to get the rights to an image from istockphoto. Bill King on his blog has some really good guides to formatting the book and preparing a cover, all simple things. You can get a surprisingly good cover using Powerpoint.

All said and done, if you don't like the idea you can always pull it from the website(s).
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#16 User is offline   Tenaka Khan 

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 02:27 PM

@Fist Gamet: thanks for the candid answer, this seems to be very tough business to get into indeed. Crossing my fingers for you.

@UoW: any chance of pointing me in the direction of your editor friend? :)

@Anomander Morg: Congrats on getting your book on sale and thanks for the tips/blogs, will make sure to check them out. Any pointers as to your novel's name?

All in all I have decided to give the traditional route at least a shot, then if nothing materialises after a certain time I'll publish it as an ebook myself. Main thing will already be to have written the book and tick that off my life's to do list : )

PS: Will attend a conference on publishing/agents etc in London in July, will let you know if it was worth the time&fee. And now back to chapter 22...
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#17 User is offline   Use Of Weapons 

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 02:42 PM

She's http://textmender.com/ (a new website, which I've helped her with, is coming soon-ish), and there are contact details there.

Be wary that if you're planning on writing sequels, self-publishing the first book will make it vanishingly unlikely that a mainstream publisher will pick the series up. Series tend to have diminishing returns.
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#18 User is offline   Anomander Morg 

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 06:35 AM

Tenaka all the best with the publishing.

I named the book 'A Darkness WIthin' a while back and once I uploaded it, I found it mired within a mass of these paranormal romance books of similar names.

For a while I thought about changing it, but the title suits. One bit of advice I can give is to check how many other titles have the same or a similar name as your own. The next book will have np such issues when it pops out.
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#19 User is offline   Fist Gamet 

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 03:52 PM

The Antatar Chronicles? Just having a wee look on Amazon, is this you then? :p

Also, the Dean Wesley Smith blog has a tremendous amount of very helpful and practical information there. Well worth a look.
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#20 User is offline   Anomander Morg 

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 06:37 AM

That's me, wanted to add a bit of a epic feel to the series, especially as it stands at one for the time being.
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