[kcf]

Below is an excerpt of my review of OST. Like most here, I had mixed feelings about this one.

Quote

Forget the plot summary – there’s a description that captures some of it on the back of the book, but more importantly, even briefly summarizing all of the different arcs of Orb Sceptre Throne would take a couple thousand words (only a slight exaggeration). And therein lies what is probably the biggest problem with the book – there are too many stories being told at once. This causes a bit of confusion and prevents a focused narrative from ever developing. This is hardly a new criticism for books in the Malazan world – both Erikson and Esslemont are guilty of this elsewhere. But with Erikson, there are always thematic threads that bind the various arcs together and bring a focus of sorts. Esslemont’s writing largely lacks the thematic depth, leaving things far too unfocused.

Another problem holding back Esslemont’s writing is his caginess. Yes, subtlety plays an important part in writing, information must be withheld to maintain interest and suspense, and not every arc can or should come to a complete resolution. However, Esslemont tends to take things too far, which results in more confusion and frustration and brings us to what is the other biggest problem in the book – the apparent lack of an end game.

Even the most die-hard Malazan fans (such as myself) are probably asking what is the end game? Where is Esslemont going with these books? Again, this is a common issue in Malazan, and I believe an intentional one. For example – what Malazan fan after reading the first 5 books in the series actually had an idea of where Erikson was going with things? My guess – none, and fans were loving the wild ride. But once again, Esslemont takes this important aspect of the overall concept of the Malazan books too far, reversing its effectiveness.

So far I’ve been all bad and no good – well, there is plenty of good to be had. But make no mistake, this good is for the fans (after all, it is essentially book 14 of a 16 book series). The fans get more Bridgeburner action – those few remaining survivors lie at the heart of this one. The Seguleh come alive and we see what they can do. Dassem and Caladran Brood are around, and some of those key people we first met way back in Gardens of the Moon are back in action. We get a creation story for the world of Wu and the fallout from the convergence at this end of this book should have some big implications to come. And there is ever-present aspect of Esslemont’s writing that fans either love or hate – the relative lack of philosophical musings that Erikson populates his books with.
Full Review

[champ]

Excellent, spot on review kcf!

Quote

Due to a few conversations I’ve been privy to over the years, I think I’ve got an idea of where Esslemont is going with all this. I just hope he’s up to it because I think that ending could rival Erikson’s.

How much is your price to share?

[kcf]

champ, on 08 March 2012 - 05:20 PM, said:

Excellent, spot on review kcf!

Quote

Due to a few conversations I’ve been privy to over the years, I think I’ve got an idea of where Esslemont is going with all this. I just hope he’s up to it because I think that ending could rival Erikson’s.

How much is your price to share?

Well, it's not really my place to say (and I'd probably screw it up anyway). I will say that it's mostly been discussed around these parts (particularly in the more philosphical threads of TCG) and SE has hinted at much in recent interviews and Q&A.

[tiam]

kcf, on 08 March 2012 - 03:20 PM, said:

Below is an excerpt of my review of OST. Like most here, I had mixed feelings about this one.

Quote

Even the most die-hard Malazan fans (such as myself) are probably asking what is the end game? Where is Esslemont going with these books? Again, this is a common issue in Malazan, and I believe an intentional one. For example – what Malazan fan after reading the first 5 books in the series actually had an idea of where Erikson was going with things? My guess – none, and fans were loving the wild ride. But once again, Esslemont takes this important aspect of the overall concept of the Malazan books too far, reversing its effectiveness.

(after all, it is essentially book 14 of a 16 book series).
Full Review

I agree with the review (its very similar to other reviews onsite) but would just like to focus on this.

Its not part of an arc. ICE is writing standalone novels of the Malazan Empire that have some overlapping themes but are individual novels. Thats what makes it so frustrating as you say. With SE the'wild ride' as you put it was part of a ten book arc that was alwyas going somewhere whether you knew where that place was or not. WIth ICE these novels dont wrap up in any satisfying way which is fine but as no continent will be revisited I am unsure were this resolution will come from. As ive said elsewhere I like ICE writing and think it has gotten better. But his caginess, as you rightly put it, has made me skeptical of whether the can link all this in to the Uber convergence on Assail we all know is coming.

As I said I like ICE as a writer and I think he gets the short end as a consequence of writing second. I just hope hes going somewhere with this that will tie up the majority of his threads. SE left portions of history open (Kalams vision in HOC, the Nameless Ones are very prominent and we know nothing about them really, KCCM, JAghut TT civilisations etc) but wrapped up his individual plots to a satisfying conclusion, per book, aswell as having unopened arc for the next one in the series on the same continent. ICE isnt doing this

This post has been edited by Friendly Neighbourhood Spider-tiam: 08 March 2012 - 08:05 PM

[kcf]

Friendly Neighbourhood Spider-tiam, on 08 March 2012 - 07:58 PM, said:

I agree with the review (its very similar to other reviews onsite) but would just like to focus on this.

Its not part of an arc. ICE is writing standalone novels of the Malazan Empire that have some overlapping themes but are individual novels. Thats what makes it so frustrating as you say. With SE the'wild ride' as you put it was part of a ten book arc that was alwyas going somewhere whether you knew where that place was or not. WIth ICE these novels dont wrap up in any satisfying way which is fine but as no continent will be revisited I am unsure were this resolution will come from. As ive said elsewhere I like ICE writing and think it has gotten better. But his caginess, as you rightly put it, has made me skeptical of whether the can link all this in to the Uber convergence on Assail we all know is coming.

As I said I like ICE as a writer and I think he gets the short end as a consequence of writing second. I just hope hes going somewhere with this that will tie up the majority of his threads. SE left portions of history open (Kalams vision in HOC, the Nameless Ones are very prominent and we know nothing about them really, KCCM, JAghut TT civilisations etc) but wrapped up his individual plots to a satisfying conclusion, per book, aswell as having unopened arc for the next one in the series on the same continent. ICE isnt doing this

I only partially agree. I think that ICE is writing a series - similar to SE in the first half of his series. They were stand-alone books that were related in that they were all pointed to an end-game. So are ICE's - and that endgame is the big convergence coming on Assail and the imlications it's going to have. As I said in the review, it's sort of the epilogue to SE's series, though that's not exactly true as it's more of a secondary climax.

I do agree that he is in a very tough spot coming second. The comparisons to SE are inevitable. And I know lots of people have differing opinions, but for me, ICE simply is not as good of a writer as SE. Hopefully he keeps improving, but he'll never be SE and the way things have worked out in Malazan, I simply don't see him ever getting out of SE's shadow.

[amphibian]

kcf, on 08 March 2012 - 08:25 PM, said:

And I know lots of people have differing opinions, but for me, ICE simply is not as good of a writer as SE. Hopefully he keeps improving, but he'll never be SE and the way things have worked out in Malazan, I simply don't see him ever getting out of SE's shadow.

I don't give a crap about anyone getting out of anyone's shadow. What I want is for ICE to be the best writer he can be. His style can be leaned, meaned and honed into a writing machine. He just has to put the work in and have people who challenge him when he gets lazy.

The tomb discovery scene early on by Ebbin is fantastic. It's well written, conveys a true Lovecraftian horror and gets the reader truly engaged. It's showing, instead of telling. Earlier than that, the unknown narrator placidly laying out the sketches of the thief about to rob Antsy is clunky. It's telling, instead of showing. This on/off dynamic keeps happening throughout the book, which is a shame since there are some very good storylines and inventive happenings. I really did like his usage of Scorch and Leff and other details like that.

The reason I get so teed off about ICE is that the talent is there for him to set his own tone, his own way of doing thins. He just hasn't been able to make it happen consistently for an entire novel.

Novels are hard to write, but ICE has the talent to make awesome ones that are in his own style. Let's get him there with constructive criticism, rather than blindly embrace/hate everything he does.

This post has been edited by amphibian: 08 March 2012 - 09:33 PM

[tiam]

kcf, on 08 March 2012 - 08:25 PM, said:

Friendly Neighbourhood Spider-tiam, on 08 March 2012 - 07:58 PM, said:

I agree with the review (its very similar to other reviews onsite) but would just like to focus on this.

Its not part of an arc. ICE is writing standalone novels of the Malazan Empire that have some overlapping themes but are individual novels. Thats what makes it so frustrating as you say. With SE the'wild ride' as you put it was part of a ten book arc that was alwyas going somewhere whether you knew where that place was or not. WIth ICE these novels dont wrap up in any satisfying way which is fine but as no continent will be revisited I am unsure were this resolution will come from. As ive said elsewhere I like ICE writing and think it has gotten better. But his caginess, as you rightly put it, has made me skeptical of whether the can link all this in to the Uber convergence on Assail we all know is coming.

As I said I like ICE as a writer and I think he gets the short end as a consequence of writing second. I just hope hes going somewhere with this that will tie up the majority of his threads. SE left portions of history open (Kalams vision in HOC, the Nameless Ones are very prominent and we know nothing about them really, KCCM, JAghut TT civilisations etc) but wrapped up his individual plots to a satisfying conclusion, per book, aswell as having unopened arc for the next one in the series on the same continent. ICE isnt doing this

I only partially agree. I think that ICE is writing a series - similar to SE in the first half of his series. They were stand-alone books that were related in that they were all pointed to an end-game. So are ICE's - and that endgame is the big convergence coming on Assail and the imlications it's going to have. As I said in the review, it's sort of the epilogue to SE's series, though that's not exactly true as it's more of a secondary climax.

I do agree that he is in a very tough spot coming second. The comparisons to SE are inevitable. And I know lots of people have differing opinions, but for me, ICE simply is not as good of a writer as SE. Hopefully he keeps improving, but he'll never be SE and the way things have worked out in Malazan, I simply don't see him ever getting out of SE's shadow.

He is ofcoure writing a narrative with an overlapping theme. However there are certain questions thhat wont be answered as were not returning to these continents and thats what I mean by standalone books. SE was always going to return to 7c after DG and HOC. ICE isnt returning to Korel so that plot remains vague as does the Genabackan plotline. I get hes going to have Kyle and others turn up in the Assail novel but were not going to return to any other continents so he had one shot to deal with each. Theres very little chance of the Assail novel tying these up.

[D'rek]

Friendly Neighbourhood Spider-tiam, on 09 March 2012 - 10:23 AM, said:

kcf, on 08 March 2012 - 08:25 PM, said:

Friendly Neighbourhood Spider-tiam, on 08 March 2012 - 07:58 PM, said:

I agree with the review (its very similar to other reviews onsite) but would just like to focus on this.

Its not part of an arc. ICE is writing standalone novels of the Malazan Empire that have some overlapping themes but are individual novels. Thats what makes it so frustrating as you say. With SE the'wild ride' as you put it was part of a ten book arc that was alwyas going somewhere whether you knew where that place was or not. WIth ICE these novels dont wrap up in any satisfying way which is fine but as no continent will be revisited I am unsure were this resolution will come from. As ive said elsewhere I like ICE writing and think it has gotten better. But his caginess, as you rightly put it, has made me skeptical of whether the can link all this in to the Uber convergence on Assail we all know is coming.

As I said I like ICE as a writer and I think he gets the short end as a consequence of writing second. I just hope hes going somewhere with this that will tie up the majority of his threads. SE left portions of history open (Kalams vision in HOC, the Nameless Ones are very prominent and we know nothing about them really, KCCM, JAghut TT civilisations etc) but wrapped up his individual plots to a satisfying conclusion, per book, aswell as having unopened arc for the next one in the series on the same continent. ICE isnt doing this

I only partially agree. I think that ICE is writing a series - similar to SE in the first half of his series. They were stand-alone books that were related in that they were all pointed to an end-game. So are ICE's - and that endgame is the big convergence coming on Assail and the imlications it's going to have. As I said in the review, it's sort of the epilogue to SE's series, though that's not exactly true as it's more of a secondary climax.

I do agree that he is in a very tough spot coming second. The comparisons to SE are inevitable. And I know lots of people have differing opinions, but for me, ICE simply is not as good of a writer as SE. Hopefully he keeps improving, but he'll never be SE and the way things have worked out in Malazan, I simply don't see him ever getting out of SE's shadow.

He is ofcoure writing a narrative with an overlapping theme. However there are certain questions thhat wont be answered as were not returning to these continents and thats what I mean by standalone books. SE was always going to return to 7c after DG and HOC. ICE isnt returning to Korel so that plot remains vague as does the Genabackan plotline. I get hes going to have Kyle and others turn up in the Assail novel but were not going to return to any other continents so he had one shot to deal with each. Theres very little chance of the Assail novel tying these up.

We had Genebackis scenes in TCG. We had whole armies last seen in 7C show up in TCG. Obviously the Assail novel will focus primarily on Assail, but there's nothing stopping ICE from having Stormriders chase Skinner far from Korel, ascendants from Genebackis warren-teleporting there or whatever. I would not be surprised at all if the Assail novel starts out entirely with new or expected characters and then halfway through a tidal wave created by High Mage Devaleth carries Admiral Nok's Malazan fleet into the middle of the mainland. Ramps drop down and a legion of Malazan infantry attack, lead by High Fist Kyle. Sergeant Goss' squad (including Suth) take a pummeling but survive when Captain Jumpy's sappers fly past on Quorls, dropping a few dozen cussers. The enemy mages flee from Moss' mercenary assassins into warrens where they are ambushed by Possum's Claw. etc etc

[worry]

Now that'd be something.

[tiam]

D, on 12 March 2012 - 02:47 PM, said:

Friendly Neighbourhood Spider-tiam, on 09 March 2012 - 10:23 AM, said:

kcf, on 08 March 2012 - 08:25 PM, said:

Friendly Neighbourhood Spider-tiam, on 08 March 2012 - 07:58 PM, said:

I agree with the review (its very similar to other reviews onsite) but would just like to focus on this.

Its not part of an arc. ICE is writing standalone novels of the Malazan Empire that have some overlapping themes but are individual novels. Thats what makes it so frustrating as you say. With SE the'wild ride' as you put it was part of a ten book arc that was alwyas going somewhere whether you knew where that place was or not. WIth ICE these novels dont wrap up in any satisfying way which is fine but as no continent will be revisited I am unsure were this resolution will come from. As ive said elsewhere I like ICE writing and think it has gotten better. But his caginess, as you rightly put it, has made me skeptical of whether the can link all this in to the Uber convergence on Assail we all know is coming.

As I said I like ICE as a writer and I think he gets the short end as a consequence of writing second. I just hope hes going somewhere with this that will tie up the majority of his threads. SE left portions of history open (Kalams vision in HOC, the Nameless Ones are very prominent and we know nothing about them really, KCCM, JAghut TT civilisations etc) but wrapped up his individual plots to a satisfying conclusion, per book, aswell as having unopened arc for the next one in the series on the same continent. ICE isnt doing this

I only partially agree. I think that ICE is writing a series - similar to SE in the first half of his series. They were stand-alone books that were related in that they were all pointed to an end-game. So are ICE's - and that endgame is the big convergence coming on Assail and the imlications it's going to have. As I said in the review, it's sort of the epilogue to SE's series, though that's not exactly true as it's more of a secondary climax.

I do agree that he is in a very tough spot coming second. The comparisons to SE are inevitable. And I know lots of people have differing opinions, but for me, ICE simply is not as good of a writer as SE. Hopefully he keeps improving, but he'll never be SE and the way things have worked out in Malazan, I simply don't see him ever getting out of SE's shadow.

He is ofcoure writing a narrative with an overlapping theme. However there are certain questions thhat wont be answered as were not returning to these continents and thats what I mean by standalone books. SE was always going to return to 7c after DG and HOC. ICE isnt returning to Korel so that plot remains vague as does the Genabackan plotline. I get hes going to have Kyle and others turn up in the Assail novel but were not going to return to any other continents so he had one shot to deal with each. Theres very little chance of the Assail novel tying these up.

We had Genebackis scenes in TCG. We had whole armies last seen in 7C show up in TCG. Obviously the Assail novel will focus primarily on Assail, but there's nothing stopping ICE from having Stormriders chase Skinner far from Korel, ascendants from Genebackis warren-teleporting there or whatever. I would not be surprised at all if the Assail novel starts out entirely with new or expected characters and then halfway through a tidal wave created by High Mage Devaleth carries Admiral Nok's Malazan fleet into the middle of the mainland. Ramps drop down and a legion of Malazan infantry attack, lead by High Fist Kyle. Sergeant Goss' squad (including Suth) take a pummeling but survive when Captain Jumpy's sappers fly past on Quorls, dropping a few dozen cussers. The enemy mages flee from Moss' mercenary assassins into warrens where they are ambushed by Possum's Claw. etc etc

Your being ridiculous...

Jumpy was a sergeant in OST and I cant see him climbing the ladder that quickly..