[Mentalist]

the only thing moving this out of my definition of M+P so far would be independent incommunicado killers.

any amount of standard roles win town v Scum is still basically M+P

[Silencer]

Macros, on 03 March 2012 - 04:33 AM, said:

must be a lot of quotes goin on, my phone has frozen twice.
cant read up to date till after work.
hds reveal is out of nowhere and if silencers is real, he played it fucking awfully.
why didnt you ask a few questions of him to verify it against your own role.
i would jump in and say hd is the fake reveal here as two day vigs is excessive, and the situation reminds me of jas fake reveal in dibsfest. but silencers reveal was so wastful and poorly executed it reeks of a symp action.
silencer, vig the fuck out of me.

More than happy to, but you'll have to wait a while, 'cuz I'm not rushing into this when we've got a weekend freeze on. Besides which, I'm hardly going to trust someone ASKING to be nuked, am I? What if you're a day-vig-win-based jester??!?!?!

[Bent]

Silencer, on 03 March 2012 - 04:37 AM, said:

Thus your problem is one of subjectivity and therefore unlikely to be resolved to your satisfaction, yeah? XD

Story of my life....Have you met my wife?

DOH!!!

[D'rek]

Silencer, on 03 March 2012 - 04:37 AM, said:

Bent, on 03 March 2012 - 04:33 AM, said:

D, on 03 March 2012 - 04:22 AM, said:

Bent, on 03 March 2012 - 04:17 AM, said:

Mentalist, on 03 March 2012 - 04:08 AM, said:

i wouldn't mind if one of you lynched Vengy.
he's done nothing to make me suspicious this game, which makes my hackles rise.

Heh, you said lynched instead of vig...

D, on 03 March 2012 - 04:14 AM, said:

Bent, on 03 March 2012 - 04:12 AM, said:

But again, the M&P thing is not a wash with even 2 day vigs. So I think that M&P (mostly) is appropriate. You shouting in the corner made no sense then and less sense now. Its scum v town with a couple of town roles at least. Still M&P - not high TMDI like cult or even test games. So you flipped out because you had one vig that was during the day? I get the reveal after Silencer played his cards a little, but you were shouting in the corner early. I havent played in a long time, but I still don get it, not really. But like I said done is done.

It's a day vig, though - that's adding day actions which is breaking standard (M&P) mechanics of day being lynches only and night being actions

THen where on the TMDI would you put it Drek? And he did say mostly, which still means that the standard scum v town is in effect, with a few twists. Its exactly where I would put it.

Anything with Day Actions, IMO, has to be TMDI:2 at the least. Especially if you don't mention them in the OP.

Even if you say it's TMDI:1, it is certainly *not* M&P (even "mostly")

My opinion that Meat and Potatoes is one of these

TMDI:1 = X+Y players, X roleless innocents, Y killers
TMDI:2 = As 1, but a small number of simple roles. Eg: 12 players, 2 Killers, Symp, Healer, BP/Vig.


The term mostly falls into the 2nd are, maybe a 2.5. But M&P to me means town v scum. Mostly means to me that you have a couple of suprises. 2 day vigs meet that criteria. The point of me making this a clarification is because, HD automatically assumed that because he had a day vig, that this must mean that this was a high TMDI, therefore making him reveal. I disagree.

Hrm, yeah, there is that. I think the difference comes down to what one defines as M&P, and how much leeway 'mostly' gives you. I'm somewhere in the middle of you and HD, in that I don't think two day-vigs plus whatever allowed two night-kills to go through is a standard setup, and therefore is not M&P. Whether it is still 'mostly' M&P is up in the air. Thus, we invented the TMDI index, ofc. But that hasn't really been applied to this game and there is nothing to stop mods from lying about the complexity of the setup or being vague on specifics or their own interpretation of what constitutes M&P (mostly). *shrug*

Thus your problem is one of subjectivity and therefore unlikely to be resolved to your satisfaction, yeah? XD

There's nothing to stop them lying about setup, but haven't we established before that you don't lie about M&P? If we haven't, I think we should! Lie about a high TMDI game, fine, though personally I really hate those games, but M&P is a selling point for a game and lying about it defeats the point of having one every now and then if it turns out to not be the relaxing (for mafia) standard game you signed up for.

[Silencer]

D, on 03 March 2012 - 04:37 AM, said:

Is Macros really volunteering as a reveal-test subject? What, is he a NA-jester?

In which case he's fucked, cuz my vig is a day action.

[HoosierDaddy]

Mentalist, on 03 March 2012 - 04:38 AM, said:

the only thing moving this out of my definition of M+P so far would be independent incommunicado killers.

any amount of standard roles win town v Scum is still basically M+P

Well you've all created more games than me, but non-customary roles moves up the TMDI level from what I recall. I was judging it on that.

[D'rek]

Bent, on 03 March 2012 - 04:38 AM, said:

D, on 03 March 2012 - 04:36 AM, said:

^^that. Don't see how that would be a balanced game with double-killers. Then again, if last night's second kill was a night vig, I could see that working. 17 players is a long game with 1 NK, even if there are 3 vigs. 2 NKs + 2 vigs and nothing but RIs and symps otherwise wouldn't work though, IMO.

SO 17 players with 2 killers and 1 symp balances with 3 vigs for team inno? Maybe but its heavy, right? I dont know, balance wasn't ever my strong suit, but I guess maybe.

If the vigs all hit town they drop it down to 14. A lynch and a NK each phase cycle and let's say 4 scum and it still takes until day 4 for scum to win at the absolute WCS.

[Silencer]

D, on 03 March 2012 - 04:40 AM, said:

Silencer, on 03 March 2012 - 04:37 AM, said:

Bent, on 03 March 2012 - 04:33 AM, said:

D, on 03 March 2012 - 04:22 AM, said:

Bent, on 03 March 2012 - 04:17 AM, said:

Mentalist, on 03 March 2012 - 04:08 AM, said:

i wouldn't mind if one of you lynched Vengy.
he's done nothing to make me suspicious this game, which makes my hackles rise.

Heh, you said lynched instead of vig...

D, on 03 March 2012 - 04:14 AM, said:

Bent, on 03 March 2012 - 04:12 AM, said:

But again, the M&P thing is not a wash with even 2 day vigs. So I think that M&P (mostly) is appropriate. You shouting in the corner made no sense then and less sense now. Its scum v town with a couple of town roles at least. Still M&P - not high TMDI like cult or even test games. So you flipped out because you had one vig that was during the day? I get the reveal after Silencer played his cards a little, but you were shouting in the corner early. I havent played in a long time, but I still don get it, not really. But like I said done is done.

It's a day vig, though - that's adding day actions which is breaking standard (M&P) mechanics of day being lynches only and night being actions

THen where on the TMDI would you put it Drek? And he did say mostly, which still means that the standard scum v town is in effect, with a few twists. Its exactly where I would put it.

Anything with Day Actions, IMO, has to be TMDI:2 at the least. Especially if you don't mention them in the OP.

Even if you say it's TMDI:1, it is certainly *not* M&P (even "mostly")

My opinion that Meat and Potatoes is one of these

TMDI:1 = X+Y players, X roleless innocents, Y killers
TMDI:2 = As 1, but a small number of simple roles. Eg: 12 players, 2 Killers, Symp, Healer, BP/Vig.


The term mostly falls into the 2nd are, maybe a 2.5. But M&P to me means town v scum. Mostly means to me that you have a couple of suprises. 2 day vigs meet that criteria. The point of me making this a clarification is because, HD automatically assumed that because he had a day vig, that this must mean that this was a high TMDI, therefore making him reveal. I disagree.

Hrm, yeah, there is that. I think the difference comes down to what one defines as M&P, and how much leeway 'mostly' gives you. I'm somewhere in the middle of you and HD, in that I don't think two day-vigs plus whatever allowed two night-kills to go through is a standard setup, and therefore is not M&P. Whether it is still 'mostly' M&P is up in the air. Thus, we invented the TMDI index, ofc. But that hasn't really been applied to this game and there is nothing to stop mods from lying about the complexity of the setup or being vague on specifics or their own interpretation of what constitutes M&P (mostly). *shrug*

Thus your problem is one of subjectivity and therefore unlikely to be resolved to your satisfaction, yeah? XD

There's nothing to stop them lying about setup, but haven't we established before that you don't lie about M&P? If we haven't, I think we should! Lie about a high TMDI game, fine, though personally I really hate those games, but M&P is a selling point for a game and lying about it defeats the point of having one every now and then if it turns out to not be the relaxing (for mafia) standard game you signed up for.

Uhm, what part of this game is EVER relaxing?!?! XD

[Bent]

Mentalist, on 03 March 2012 - 04:38 AM, said:

the only thing moving this out of my definition of M+P so far would be independent incommunicado killers. any amount of standard roles win town v Scum is still basically M+P

This is my understanding of the term. This is why I judge HD so harshly, and this is why I think JLV is doing a good job. Look, I want to hump Drek's leg. So sue me, and so if JLV happens to put in his scenes that the drunk dog humps the worm of autumn, then thats fine by me.

[D'rek]

Silencer, on 03 March 2012 - 04:42 AM, said:

D, on 03 March 2012 - 04:40 AM, said:

Silencer, on 03 March 2012 - 04:37 AM, said:

Bent, on 03 March 2012 - 04:33 AM, said:

D, on 03 March 2012 - 04:22 AM, said:

Bent, on 03 March 2012 - 04:17 AM, said:

Mentalist, on 03 March 2012 - 04:08 AM, said:

i wouldn't mind if one of you lynched Vengy.
he's done nothing to make me suspicious this game, which makes my hackles rise.

Heh, you said lynched instead of vig...

D, on 03 March 2012 - 04:14 AM, said:

Bent, on 03 March 2012 - 04:12 AM, said:

But again, the M&P thing is not a wash with even 2 day vigs. So I think that M&P (mostly) is appropriate. You shouting in the corner made no sense then and less sense now. Its scum v town with a couple of town roles at least. Still M&P - not high TMDI like cult or even test games. So you flipped out because you had one vig that was during the day? I get the reveal after Silencer played his cards a little, but you were shouting in the corner early. I havent played in a long time, but I still don get it, not really. But like I said done is done.

It's a day vig, though - that's adding day actions which is breaking standard (M&P) mechanics of day being lynches only and night being actions

THen where on the TMDI would you put it Drek? And he did say mostly, which still means that the standard scum v town is in effect, with a few twists. Its exactly where I would put it.

Anything with Day Actions, IMO, has to be TMDI:2 at the least. Especially if you don't mention them in the OP.

Even if you say it's TMDI:1, it is certainly *not* M&P (even "mostly")

My opinion that Meat and Potatoes is one of these

TMDI:1 = X+Y players, X roleless innocents, Y killers
TMDI:2 = As 1, but a small number of simple roles. Eg: 12 players, 2 Killers, Symp, Healer, BP/Vig.


The term mostly falls into the 2nd are, maybe a 2.5. But M&P to me means town v scum. Mostly means to me that you have a couple of suprises. 2 day vigs meet that criteria. The point of me making this a clarification is because, HD automatically assumed that because he had a day vig, that this must mean that this was a high TMDI, therefore making him reveal. I disagree.

Hrm, yeah, there is that. I think the difference comes down to what one defines as M&P, and how much leeway 'mostly' gives you. I'm somewhere in the middle of you and HD, in that I don't think two day-vigs plus whatever allowed two night-kills to go through is a standard setup, and therefore is not M&P. Whether it is still 'mostly' M&P is up in the air. Thus, we invented the TMDI index, ofc. But that hasn't really been applied to this game and there is nothing to stop mods from lying about the complexity of the setup or being vague on specifics or their own interpretation of what constitutes M&P (mostly). *shrug*

Thus your problem is one of subjectivity and therefore unlikely to be resolved to your satisfaction, yeah? XD

There's nothing to stop them lying about setup, but haven't we established before that you don't lie about M&P? If we haven't, I think we should! Lie about a high TMDI game, fine, though personally I really hate those games, but M&P is a selling point for a game and lying about it defeats the point of having one every now and then if it turns out to not be the relaxing (for mafia) standard game you signed up for.

Uhm, what part of this game is EVER relaxing?!?! XD

Hence the "for mafia"!

[HoosierDaddy]

Bent, on 03 March 2012 - 04:42 AM, said:

Mentalist, on 03 March 2012 - 04:38 AM, said:

the only thing moving this out of my definition of M+P so far would be independent incommunicado killers. any amount of standard roles win town v Scum is still basically M+P

This is my understanding of the term. This is why I judge HD so harshly, and this is why I think JLV is doing a good job. Look, I want to hump Drek's leg. So sue me, and so if JLV happens to put in his scenes that the drunk dog humps the worm of autumn, then thats fine by me.

Take your harsh judgments and cram them up your bunghole!

[Bent]

H.D., on 03 March 2012 - 04:44 AM, said:

Take your harsh judgments and cram them up your bunghole!

See, this is how you should have played from the beginning, then I wouldnt have thought your timid bullshit was scummy. Protip - stop being a bitch and man up and fight!

[Mentalist]

Silencer, on 03 March 2012 - 04:42 AM, said:

D, on 03 March 2012 - 04:40 AM, said:

Silencer, on 03 March 2012 - 04:37 AM, said:

Bent, on 03 March 2012 - 04:33 AM, said:

D, on 03 March 2012 - 04:22 AM, said:

Bent, on 03 March 2012 - 04:17 AM, said:

Mentalist, on 03 March 2012 - 04:08 AM, said:

i wouldn't mind if one of you lynched Vengy.
he's done nothing to make me suspicious this game, which makes my hackles rise.

Heh, you said lynched instead of vig...

D, on 03 March 2012 - 04:14 AM, said:

Bent, on 03 March 2012 - 04:12 AM, said:

But again, the M&P thing is not a wash with even 2 day vigs. So I think that M&P (mostly) is appropriate. You shouting in the corner made no sense then and less sense now. Its scum v town with a couple of town roles at least. Still M&P - not high TMDI like cult or even test games. So you flipped out because you had one vig that was during the day? I get the reveal after Silencer played his cards a little, but you were shouting in the corner early. I havent played in a long time, but I still don get it, not really. But like I said done is done.

It's a day vig, though - that's adding day actions which is breaking standard (M&P) mechanics of day being lynches only and night being actions

THen where on the TMDI would you put it Drek? And he did say mostly, which still means that the standard scum v town is in effect, with a few twists. Its exactly where I would put it.

Anything with Day Actions, IMO, has to be TMDI:2 at the least. Especially if you don't mention them in the OP.

Even if you say it's TMDI:1, it is certainly *not* M&P (even "mostly")

My opinion that Meat and Potatoes is one of these

TMDI:1 = X+Y players, X roleless innocents, Y killers
TMDI:2 = As 1, but a small number of simple roles. Eg: 12 players, 2 Killers, Symp, Healer, BP/Vig.


The term mostly falls into the 2nd are, maybe a 2.5. But M&P to me means town v scum. Mostly means to me that you have a couple of suprises. 2 day vigs meet that criteria. The point of me making this a clarification is because, HD automatically assumed that because he had a day vig, that this must mean that this was a high TMDI, therefore making him reveal. I disagree.

Hrm, yeah, there is that. I think the difference comes down to what one defines as M&P, and how much leeway 'mostly' gives you. I'm somewhere in the middle of you and HD, in that I don't think two day-vigs plus whatever allowed two night-kills to go through is a standard setup, and therefore is not M&P. Whether it is still 'mostly' M&P is up in the air. Thus, we invented the TMDI index, ofc. But that hasn't really been applied to this game and there is nothing to stop mods from lying about the complexity of the setup or being vague on specifics or their own interpretation of what constitutes M&P (mostly). *shrug*

Thus your problem is one of subjectivity and therefore unlikely to be resolved to your satisfaction, yeah? XD

There's nothing to stop them lying about setup, but haven't we established before that you don't lie about M&P? If we haven't, I think we should! Lie about a high TMDI game, fine, though personally I really hate those games, but M&P is a selling point for a game and lying about it defeats the point of having one every now and then if it turns out to not be the relaxing (for mafia) standard game you signed up for.

Uhm, what part of this game is EVER relaxing?!?! XD

Being the Predator?

[Silencer]

I think Bent wants to be vig'd, HD. XD

[Silencer]

True, Ment. Or Kill-Sat 117. XD

[Bent]

Fuck that, I want to play, but I dont care if it makes a VPI then whatever. But I am not about to stop playing just because someones got a gun. This is mafia mother-fuckers, not for the weak minded or faint of heart. Also, I had an energy drink and watched the UFC fight. And by energy drink I may mean a couple of shots of Crown royal, but only a couple, I dont get drunk anymore. Everything in moderation.

[Bent]

Silencer, on 03 March 2012 - 04:50 AM, said:

True, Ment. Or Kill-Sat 117. XD

Yeah or Path Shaper as a killer......that shit was funny as hell and to this day you fuckers vote PS to be safe. Bubba and I rocked that shit.

[Stalker]

H.D., on 03 March 2012 - 04:30 AM, said:

D, on 03 March 2012 - 04:23 AM, said:

H.D., on 03 March 2012 - 04:16 AM, said:

Bubba, on 03 March 2012 - 04:14 AM, said:

All this confusion......oh there is going to be a paddlin.......


<snipping picture>


Remove vote best bet I can figure if you are scum HD, is that you are the symp for two killers who don't know each other, maybe Silencer and?

Well, like I've said. It's not really a powerful role unless you've got a finder reveal, and I've made internal decisions that this game is fucked and we don't have a finder.

Then again, if we really have 2 day vigs and therefore the killers are seperate, a guard would be a finder and better.

And if I think that at the least we have no standard roles? That's basically what I was implying but no problem clarifying.

I don't see that being true. I have no idea how the game would be balanced if the innos only had vigs. I don't see it.

[HoosierDaddy]

Stalker, on 03 March 2012 - 04:55 AM, said:

H.D., on 03 March 2012 - 04:30 AM, said:

D, on 03 March 2012 - 04:23 AM, said:

H.D., on 03 March 2012 - 04:16 AM, said:

Bubba, on 03 March 2012 - 04:14 AM, said:

All this confusion......oh there is going to be a paddlin.......


<snipping picture>


Remove vote best bet I can figure if you are scum HD, is that you are the symp for two killers who don't know each other, maybe Silencer and?

Well, like I've said. It's not really a powerful role unless you've got a finder reveal, and I've made internal decisions that this game is fucked and we don't have a finder.

Then again, if we really have 2 day vigs and therefore the killers are seperate, a guard would be a finder and better.

And if I think that at the least we have no standard roles? That's basically what I was implying but no problem clarifying.

I don't see that being true. I have no idea how the game would be balanced if the innos only had vigs. I don't see it.

We'll find out eventually.

[Path-Shaper]

There's a twist: No access to spoiler heaven for complainers! Muahahaha

JLV, signing out.